initiating divorce

[EyesUp]

For non-BPs who have initiated a divorce with a BP spouse, what was the best advice you received from your attorney and/or counselor re: delivering the message, and managing the overall process.

How did your BP spouse respond?

Has anyone experienced any form of capitulation or attempt to save the marriage, or was divorce predictably met as abandonment and as an overture for hostility?

One of my challenges is that we will need to cohabitate through the process - I will not abandon the children.

I've read Bill Eddy.

Any other practical advice is welcome.

[ForeverDad]

William Eddy's SPLITTING handbook is essential in our cases.

You need a proactive experienced lawyer, not the sort that fills out forms and holds hands.

If there are going to be allegations and attempts to put you at a disadvantage, such as claiming DV or child abuse, that's more likely to occur at time of separation, filing or filing notification, or just before a major hearing.  The stbEx is very likely to try almost anything to make you appear worse than the stbEx.

A truism here is "If it has been threatened or even contemplated, then it will happen, given enough time.".  Which is why waiting while hoping the issues go away typically end up letting us sabotage ourselves.

As you can tell from what I wrote, my separation was sudden and with mixed results.  I called 911 and I was the one almost carted off.  Fortunately my preschooler (sobbing quietly in my arms) refused to be handed over his mother and so I couldn't "step away" as instructed.  (My divorce lawyer later told me someone is always carted away in a domestic dispute, always the man.  You guessed it, I called 911, she of course played the victim and I was almost the guy carted off.)  Later the police listened to my recording and she was arrested for Threat of DV.  The positive was that I gained protective possession of the marital home for the next few months.  The negative was that, despite her pending case, domestic court assigned her the role of temporary custodial parent and majority time as well.  That default preference for mothers still persists in many courts.

Why was I quietly recording?  I wanted to document that I was never the one misbehaving or being aggressive.  Some states may say you have to get permission to record but my stance was that I was recording myself and if she happened to choose that time to rant and rage, well, so be it.

The key is that I did not give up or give in.  The divorce process was nearly two years and court never tried to fix the lousy temp order.  So my advice to all those faced with separation and divorce is to get the best (or least unfair) temp order possible.  Be aware that typical temp order hearing are brief, I think mine was about a half hour.  You have very little time to make a case that you ought to be the parent in charge, that claimed "temporary" order will probably drag on much longer than the court expects.  Use that time well, don't get bogged down in side issues, stick to the priorities dealt with at each hearing.

[Turkish]

I "sucked it up" and tolerated her double life while she "phoned it in" like a teen mom.  Four months until she found a place. She asked me to stay.  I paid the mortgage and utilities (so she could save up), taking care of the kids more while she played, one time returning at 5AM.

I used the communication tools here (Lesson 3 on the Bettering Board), and tried to make it like ships passing in the night.  I hired a lawyer to hash out custody, initially she didn't want to because she didn't want to go to court but we filed without going to court.

It was months of emotional hell for me, but I detached as much as possible, and validated her choosing to leave.

Once left, the order was filed and signed a few months later. CS was math, guideline, with an alteration she agreed to (I put $100/month each into our 2 kid's college funds).

Much drama ensued later with her beau, then husband, but that's another story. Getting her out and filling the plan was the goal, and using the tools, I cast it as protecting all of us which wasn't a lie.

[EyesUp]

My atty suggested that I file for D and simultaneously file a Motion for a Guardian ad Litem with a psych evaluation for my wife.

A forensic accountant was also proposed, to find messages, analyze bank accounts, find anything that has been deleted on the computer, etc.

This is based in part on my wife creating a profile on an online site for affairs and meeting at least one man from said site.  In a pandemic.  With three kids at home.

I understand that there are no clear outcomes with a GAD, but reading up now to best understand the pros/cons.  I'll search here of course - for anyone reading along, any pointers or links are appreciated.

FWIW, I'm increasingly convinced that my W is BPD.  I've gone back and forth on this, as abandonment has never appeared to be a primary concern or motivation - but everything else lines up.  Very grateful for this community and the resources I've found here...

[ForeverDad]

My atty suggested that I file for D and simultaneously file a Motion for a Guardian ad Litem with a psych evaluation for my wife.

My first attorney during my separation was a real newbie and not practicing in my county, she was out of her depth.  I needed more than filing forms and hands held.  She recommended my local divorce attorney, she trusted him to be proactive but also decent.

We both did get ordered to take Psych Evals.  Very equality minded.  (Too often we reasonably normal parents get cast as abusers by the stbEx, the professed victim, so court often only scrutinized the accused, ignoring what motivated the accuser.  If at all possible you want the stbEx to share in experiencing that scrutiny.)  Unfortunately, I obeyed the court, got the session at the county health office with a grad student from a local hospital, and promptly shared it.  (Predictably, I had anxiety.)  The problem?  To this day I still don't know nearly 15 years later whether she complied much less shared.  So my experience taught me... when both are ordered to do something like this, have your lawyer contact the other side, "We have complied with the court's order and have our results.  We will share our results when you exchange your results with us."

He felt a GAL wasn't needed during the divorce — didn't realize how intractable my spouse was — since we had a Custody Evaluation scheduled and the final decree came out as the Custody Evaluator recommended.  (BTW get the best CE you can, your choice of a CE can make or break your case.)  Later when I went back during Change of Circumstances seeking full custody and also majority time, he realized we did need a GAL (a children's lawyer focused on their needs) and he picked a GAL he trusted.  Results were mixed to start but eventually it worked out well.

A forensic accountant was also proposed, to find messages, analyze bank accounts, find anything that has been deleted on the computer, etc.

Usually forensic accountants are used to ferret out money that had been squirreled away.  The confirmation of her life choices may grant you a sense of justice but it may have only limited benefit for the court case.  Then again, who knows what may be found?  Just don't expect it will matter that much in the final analysis.

However, the risk of exposing her lifestyle could be part of your Leverage for you to seek a better custodial or parental outcome.  These days probably not by much.

This is based in part on my wife creating a profile on an online site for affairs and meeting at least one man from said site.  In a pandemic.  With three kids at home.

Courts do not try to live our lives for us.  They'll look at you as an adult, same for your spouse.  With the lax moral standard today compared to the past, you're unlikely to get the court outraged.  It may help support your case, but hard to predict how much if any.

As for seeking affairs or encounters during a pandemic, the courts know that children, even otherwise healthy people under the age of 50, are unlikely to be at serious medical risk.  I'm not saying you're perspective is wrong, just keep your eyes open should court not see some behaviors as all that bad or impacting.

I've gotten a bit jaded during my years in and out of family court.  It seems court often sees significant tensions and emotions between parents during a divorce and so much of the poor behaviors are ignored as long as they are not considered very "actionable".  Your lawyer should help you see the local court's typical perspective even though you may not agree with it.

FWIW, I'm increasingly convinced that my W is BPD.

Most states have little or no interest in assigning fault, depending on their laws and policies.  Combine that overall limited accountability — or today's indifference? — that spouses are adults and courts are unlikely to tell them how to live their lives.  Also, I found that my court had no interest in listening to me Play Doctor, as though I was playing a child's game.  However, it is exceedingly difficult to get a professional to diagnose some Personality Disorder.  Usually the only members here who have proof of that are the ones whose spouses have a history of hospitalizations, etc.

So our practical approach is to do what the courts do, address the documented poor behaviors.  Yes, that can limit us but it's also a tool that we can use to focus our efforts on what does work.  After all, once the divorce is final, both parents get to live their own lives.  So our primary focus during a divorce is to seek the "least bad" outcome for (1) ourselves and (2) our children.  Sadly, our Ex cannot be at the top of our priority list.

[EyesUp]

"So our primary focus during a divorce is to seek the "least bad" outcome for (1) ourselves and (2) our children."

yes, exactly. demonstrating W's mental state could have an impact on custody, so pertinent to #2...

[kells76]

My atty suggested that I file for D and simultaneously file a Motion for a Guardian ad Litem with a psych evaluation for my wife.

EyesUp, do you think your W would throw mental health/parenting allegations at you? I.e., "EyesUp is diagnosed psychotic, beats the kids, yells at them, takes meds, has a personality disorder, threatened X Y Z, etc"?

I'd ask your L if he (she?) sees any benefit to you offering to also take a psych eval, or if it'd be better to "let your W do her own work" and not make the offer for her. Like FD talks about, we can get tied up in being the fair one, but the kids take the hit when we do.

It could look better to have your W be the only one getting the psych eval. But maybe there's some hidden reason for you to get one, too, or as a "getting in front of it" measure if it's likely she's going to fling nasty allegations your way. Kind of depends on your W's MO and your L's advice.

Keep us posted on how things are going...

kells76

[EyesUp]

Hi Kells,

Thanks for this.  I have not discussed with my L, however I can see two sides to this strategy.  I've also read here or elsewhere stories where one side complied with an eval request and the other did not - the take away was, adhere to a strict quid pro quo.  i.e., do not proactively offer information - but be fully prepared to exchange like for like when needed.  As such, I will certainly be prepared to take an eval.

One note.

I recently came across a concise profile for Covert Narc and it's a bit closer to my W than BPD.  She is definitely more concerned with rejection than abandonment, and lines up really well with the other aspects.  So I've been starting to reframe my operating ideas re: relationship and forward plans based on this - at least as a thought experiment.   The CN is a bit of a twist on typical NPD themes, but so many of the tools presented here apply.

This place has been an invaluable resource to me these past months.

[ForeverDad]

I agree, it does not pay to volunteer information and if you can morph a compliance requirement into a more equal exchange scenario, that is better.

These Personality Disorders — we focus here on the Cluster B group... Borderline, Narcissistic, AntiSocial, Histrionic and I'll throw in Paranoid too — are complicated disorders.  Or rather, people are complicated, everyone has traits, the issue is whether they're unbalanced, unhealthy or to an extreme.  Not everyone has every trait of a disorder.  (My ex had 7 of 9 Borderline traits but all the Paranoid traits... and here I am at BPDFamily.)  It is called co-morbid if a person has significant traits of more than one disorder.

Side comment... It amazes me that most people we meet are quite willing to toss around the Narcissistic label almost willy nilly but "How dare you call someone Borderline!  You're not a trained professional, you can't Play Doctor!"

Family courts and the professionals around them typically avoid making a diagnosis, most studiously ignore PD terminology and stick to documented poor behaviors.  You see, they're not going to try to fix either your issues or your ex's issues, they just deal with us as we are.  We should follow the court's example.  The suggestion here that we follow that outlook — the insightful perspectives, collective wisdom here and practical strategies — typically gets better results.

[zachira]

Dr Ramani and Rebecca Zung have excellent youtube videos on covert narcissists. Dr Ramani is a psychologist and Rebecca Zung a divorce attorney. Both specialize in educating others about narcissists.

[ForeverDad]

I had mentioned the possibility of comorbidity, I feel I ought to include another member's description using spectrum disorders and overlapping traits, emphasis mine.  These are only excerpts, you can follow the link to read it all.  IMHO Notwendy is quite perceptive in her observations.

We aren't professionals...

What I found is that these are spectrum disorders that can have some overlap. So a person with any of these can range from mild to severe and have aspects of another PD. I guess the main diagnosis is made on the characteristics that are most predominant.

Of course the two PD's can overlap with traits of both. I think it would take a very skilled therapist to determine what category a person would fit best. But actually the main issue is the behaviors and the issues they cause to themselves and others and how to best address that.

[EyesUp]

Dr Ramani and Rebecca Zung have excellent youtube videos on covert narcissists. Dr Ramani is a psychologist and Rebecca Zung a divorce attorney. Both specialize in educating others about narcissists.

Thanks, I'll check out Ramani.  I previously stumbled across Zung, and she's selling what I'm buying - but I read 10x faster than I can watch a video.  I'm deeply suspicious of "watch this loong video" to get to the answer.  I'll read 100 pages of BPDfamily (and donate) before I watch a youtube video that leads to a paywall, or an invitation to learn more on another platform, etc.  Maybe I'll check out her books.  Thanks again.

[EyesUp]

I had mentioned the possibility of comorbidity, I feel I ought to include another member's description using spectrum disorders and overlapping traits, emphasis mine.  These are only excerpts, you can follow the link to read it all.  IMHO Notwendy is quite perceptive in her observations.

Point well taken, thank you.  Certainly related to why B Cluster PDs are difficult to diagnose in the first place.

One thing I've been thinking about:  My wife's behavior changed dramatically sometime around April/May and by the start of June she started an affair, which came to light in August.  If you had asked me prior to this point, I would have said that my depression and anxiety prone W was incapable of such a thing.

In hindsight, there have been many traits and red flags over the years - but I'm struck by the inflection point, and I wonder if anyone can direct me to anything about the progression of NPD.  I know it's not easily treatable, but I am mindful of the fact that my W is my life partner and co-parent - D or no D - and in the best interests of all involved - particularly my kids - I wonder if there is anything that can be done to mitigate apparent progression.

My W also reports that "something snapped" - we both know when and where, although she always blacks out details when angry.

I hate to think that something is unfolding that is likely to get worse.  It's not my intention to control her, only to support her as best I can while I continue to navigate through the unfolding PLEASE READ show.

[zachira]

Like you, I generally do not have the patience to watch videos and prefer to read, however Dr. Ramani's and Rebecca Zung's videos are exceptionally informative, especially the ones they do together on divorcing a narcissist.

[I Am Redeemed]

Is it possible that the pandemic was a catalyst?

Other members here have reported a dramatic spike in symptoms or behaviors in partners/family members after an event that was out of the ordinary, unexpected, even traumatic, such as a natural disaster or a huge loss. The start of the pandemic was a huge upset for everyone as far as the way we experience everyday life, so for someone who already has PD traits and/or poor coping skills, it could have kicked off something there.

[EyesUp]

Is it possible that the pandemic was a catalyst?

100% yes. 2019-20 has been a cascade of catalysts:
- moved to a new house, new town - traumatic for my W, she has always had a hard time with any move
- after two months she had to switch her gym (~ 1 hour each way), a major change - can't overstate this, she was opposed to moving in order to keep her gym for years
- I got a promotion at work that required significantly more international travel.  Frequent travel is not new, but the international aspect seemed to trouble her - she was convinced that I was having an affair, she has since stated that she thought I had a second family somewhere
- finances were tight; W self soothes by shopping...
- pandemic hit and suddenly I was home full time - we've never experienced this before
- W was unable to go to her new gym / closed due to quarantine (although we do have a home gym/Peloton)
- Pandemic hit her hard, while I was somewhat pleased to have time at home with her and the kids, and no travel.  She was super depressed - more than I've ever seen

So, yes, 2020 hit us right between the eyes.

What could have been a time to improve our relationship actually went the other way.  I proposed all sorts of things - cooking together, rewatching the Sopranos (and old favorite that we'd never have time to watch otherwise), exploring our new town (many hiking trails, historic spots, etc.)...  she became withdrawn, and angry.

The affair happened when she developed a relationship via Facebook with the father of our youngest daughter's pre-k / now k-garten classmate.  14 years younger, likely a narc, he showered her with attention and praise. 

After d-day, he withdrew and I've come to recognize that she's processed this as rejection.  I am merely a bystander, it seems.

She has become increasingly manic.  I've always been on eggshells, but now it's eggshells interspersed with tripwires, landmines, and the occasional dog poo camouflaged among the fall leaves...   

She lines up with the criteria for covert narc, but it was not always this pronounced.  She's been exceedingly high functioning, and even now seems to be carrying on, but barely.

What happens when a NPD or more specifically a CNPD (is that a term?) reaches a breaking point?  She fears rejection - and projects rejection on to me to justify her poor choices - but she cannot fully paint me black or discard me because I have overwhelming evidence of her bad behavior, and she knows it.  I suspect she feels somewhat stuck (as do I).

At the moment, I'm taking it one day at a time to get through the holidays without a traumatic event that wounds the kids.

I expect that we are headed for D early in the new year, however I am exceedingly concerned about how little value a psych eval or GAD might bring to that process with a high functioning narc...

[kells76]

I am exceedingly concerned about how little value a psych eval or GAD might bring to that process with a high functioning narc

Brief food for thought:

From what I've heard, the "MMPI" and/or "MMPI-2" assessments are designed to reveal when the taker is trying to "game" or "fool" the test. That is, the very way a taker interacts with the test, in a meta way, even more than the specific chosen answers, is what tells the interpreter about the taker's psychology.

So, psych evals are designed to accurately assess people who are motivated to fool a psych eval.

Caveat, I haven't personally been through one, nor has DH nor his ex. So, no hands on experience -- just based on what I've heard here.

[EyesUp]

Brief food for thought:

From what I've heard, the "MMPI" and/or "MMPI-2" assessments are designed to reveal when the taker is trying to "game" or "fool" the test. That is, the very way a taker interacts with the test, in a meta way, even more than the specific chosen answers, is what tells the interpreter about the taker's psychology.

So, psych evals are designed to accurately assess people who are motivated to fool a psych eval.

Thanks, good to know.  More to study... 

[ForeverDad]

There's the MMPI-3 now.  I recall taking some tests during my Custody Evaluation.  It was tough, for me, since I like perfect answers.  I did notice it asked the same questions in different ways.  And many times there was no good question and so I had to choose the "least bad" answer.  I think that was the goal of the test, to see which you'd choose.  In a way, it was a twisted set of tests.

[SamwizeGamgee]

For me, I am glad I gave up on mediation sooner rather than later.
My STBX (think BPDish with waif trait) talks a big game about kid’s best interests, being reasonable, want to settle and move on, etc. We tried meditation. We tried negotiating. All that applies and works only when she thinks she’s getting every wild thing she expects.  In reality, she’s fueled by conflict, although passive aggressive. She’s blamed, painted me black, and has been clear about proclaiming her victim status. 
After getting her obscenely biased settlement offer, I realized I could spend thousands of dollars per paragraph trying to negotiate it towards a reasonable medium.  I decided then to file.  The state would come up a much more balanced divorce decree if I did nothing else.  It also felt somehow validating and relieving to file. I finally stood up to the manipulation and insanity.

[EyesUp]

@Samwize

Can you share more about your experience after you filed?

Did you attempt to cohabitate for any period of time?

How did your W react to your change of course? 

How are you and your kids doing?

[SamwizeGamgee]

EyesUp
Hello. I've been off the site for a while. It's been a chaotic period. Sorry.

Filing felt amazing. I finally stepped up and did what I had wanted to do for years. I told my truth - if even it only matters to me. I can live with what I did and how I did it. In my court filings, I took the high road. STBX is throwing mud all over. I can hold my head up no matter what happens because of how I did things.

My L asked me the question that made all the difference.  "Do you think she'll be reasonable?'"
In my heart, the answer, "I know she cannot."

I decided to file. She counter-filed, which came across as a nasty although petty attack. Then the lawyer letters, with intimidation and threats. We continue to live under the same roof. If one of us leaves it shows the court we can leave the kids. Plus, it's never a good idea to move out before a parenting plan is in place. She disgusts me now, so I stay clear. I keep it civil and professional. I ignore everything unless it is important about the kids.

I'm in the middle of legal wrangling right now, so have to watch my tongue. She's done devastating things. She's crossed lines that can't be repaired now. Nothing short of slander, allegations against my character. I lost respect for STBX.

Frankly, I am glad to have this come out before hand. I went from amicable, and negotiable, to flat-out "keep her away from me." I don't like what I'm going through, but, I can articulate to a judge now - by her own actions, why I need as little contact as possible.

Our family T pointed out the obvious: "you are not candidates for co-parenting."

To catch you up, we have another mediation scheduled soon. This will be the kind with us in separate rooms and the mediator switches back and forth.
Filing does not take away the possibility of mediation, but, I think it made it more serious.

What got me to return to the mediation table was the fact that 80% of mediation preparation is trial preparation. And, who knows, it might work. I give u s about a 20% of success. I think this settlement will actually happen on the courthouse stairs - in a year.

I've been separated under the same roof for so many years that the kids are more or less in status quo. They've know for many months now that divorce is coming. They are all eager to get to new houses and life 2.0 as we call it.

[ForeverDad]

Filing felt amazing. I finally stepped up and did what I had wanted to do for years. I told my truth...

That first step is so hard but now that you've chosen your path, subsequent steps will be less of a hurdle.

What got me to return to the mediation table was the fact that 80% of mediation preparation is trial preparation. And, who knows, it might work. I give u s about a 20% of success. I think this settlement will actually happen on the courthouse stairs - in a year.

Courts typically require mediation attempts early in a divorce.  (Notice I wrote "attempts"... you don't have to agree to terrible terms.)  For me it was the second step in my divorce, right after the court set the temp order.  Predictably, it failed and I moved on to the next steps.

The reason mediation usually fails for us is that the disordered ex is too entitled and controlling early in the divorce process.  More often we get a settlement later on just before a major hearing or trial.

[SamwizeGamgee]

I'm on track.
We had out first official, highly-qualified mediator try and fail last June. She withdrew from our case.
Precisely as you say, entitlement and enmeshment.
I regret the tens of thousands of dollars tossed out the window so far. And I don't even have a court date yet.
But, as I said, it is also trial prep.