Spouse threatens to kick me out

[Scared2Lose]

Spouse threatens to kick me out of my home anytime I try to advocate for myself in discussions about how we proceed with the divorce.

Is this something she can do? She's recently started saying she feels unsafe with me being here. When I ask why, she says it's because she can hear me talking with my support network on the phone. I'm in a tenant apartment (the home has two units) despite that she said she would move into the tenant apartment, and the walls are pretty thin. We've not interacted at all besides discussions on how to continue forward with the end of our marriage, but anytime I try to advocate for myself in these discussions, she threatens to kick me out. If you fight me on this divorce she says, I'll kick you out of the house. That can't be right, can it. I basically did everything required to purchase the home, set it up for her, and maintain it for her. She's done about 5% of the work. Now I'm the one who's expected to leave?

I can't even have a discussion with her about this stuff without her saying I'm bullying her (this is a new one she's started to bring up). From my perspective, I ask her what she wants, what she thinks is fair, she says she doesn't know. So I explain to her what I think the best options are. She picks one, runs with it, then blames me and gets mad at me as soon as it gets hard. Is this typical?

Has anyone here gotten a favorable judgement based on emotional distress and caretaking?

[formflier]

I would suggest talking to a lawyer and specifically ask if the threat can be turned into reality.

Here is the thing...she could also threaten to (fill in the blank)...right? 

It doesn't mean it can happen.

Best,

FF

[mart555]

Cover your ass... record and document.  That means having your phone set as an audio recorder when you talk to her (if legal).  It smells like false abuse claims are brewing so you want to be ready to defend yourself.  You may want to read "Splitting" by Bill Eddy. 

[tvda]

I can't speak for you because I don't know the technicalities of your situation, nor the legal code where you live.

In whose name is the house? I mean: who owns what percentage, legally as specified on the deed? Are you legally registered (with city hall) on this address?

If you own part of the house, even if it is only 1%, and are legally registered at this address, in the country I live in she can not kick you out, without resorting to extreme tactics like falsely accusing you of domestic violence.

[CoherentMoose]

Cover your ass... record and document.  That means having your phone set as an audio recorder when you talk to her (if legal).  It smells like false abuse claims are brewing so you want to be ready to defend yourself.  You may want to read "Splitting" by Bill Eddy.

My two cents worth is move to no verbal communications with your STBx.  All written, preferable through email with a third party (friend, family member) proofing your responses for BIFF.  Use the Bill Eddy BIFF book as a reference.  And yes, record everything.  As ForeverDad discusses in this forum, you are recording yourself to ensure you are interacting appropriately.  Be very deliberate with communications.  Painfully deliberate.   You may not be able to use the recording in a court, but the recordings may help you in other situations.   Can you have support conversations in a private area?  Like a car? 
Good luck.  CoMo 

[Scared2Lose]

I'm in a one-party state, so I've started to record everything. Doesn't matter though, because she threatened and followed through on not talking to me at all. And you know what? Awesome!

She says she wants the lawyers to work it out. I don't think she realizes how much more stressful for her that's going to be. I think she thinks lawyers are like doctors and they're just gonna be like, this is the law, and this is what you get and this is what you get. I made one attempt to dissuade her of that opinion, then gave up.

It's so funny though, because last week before she went to her parents with an offer that her parents asked for (they hold a lot of the cards), everything was fine. She was on my side. She agreed to go to them with the offer. And her Ma went absolutely ballistic, getting mad at HER. Saying how dare she come to them with such a high amount (compared to their net worth it's nothing). No mention of me at all. I'm pretty sure her MA has some form of BPD as well.

I talked to a lawyer, and at least where live, it is illegal to kick someone out of the marital home unless there is a clear indication of abuse. That means police reports, and/or proof of physical abuse. Both parties are allowed to stay in the marital home until the divorce is finalized. So I'm good there.

I honestly just want all this to be over so I can move on with my life. I'm afraid that she's going to make it weird because she's more afraid of her parents than she is of me. I wouldn't even be in this position if her parents hadn't lied about how and when she could access her money. They'd said that there'd be a system and they wouldn't interfere. If they'd be honest, I never would have accepted any of their money.

[formflier]

  I wouldn't even be in this position if her parents hadn't lied about how and when she could access her money. They'd said that there'd be a system and they wouldn't interfere. If they'd be honest, I never would have accepted any of their money.

Have you retained a divorce lawyer?

Does that L have experience with divorces and trusts and weird ways of holding money?

I would evaluate what I quoted above and see if there is fraud, that go end up being to your benefit.

Best,

FF

[Scared2Lose]

Well, it's a really weird situation. They manipulate her to no end and are incapable of relinquishing control of anything. Basically, at my request, after she accepted my proposal, I asked her to have a conversation with them about how and when she could access the money. I stated that I had no desire to go to them for permission about anything. That I'd be perfectly happy to support her, or live without their money, and that she should communicate both those things clearly (this was before I knew ANYthing about BPD). They told her all she had to do was submit a budget once a year, and they may or may not make comments, and distribute the money according to her budgetary needs. That system held until she went to treatment, something they fought me on.

They're also ninjas of agreeing to something as if it's no big deal, then in the 11th hour of complicated processes, adding all kinds of stipulations and conditions.

I don't know if it's fraud so much as they are afraid if they relinquish control, she won't involve them in her life anymore. It's obvious to me that if they'd let go a little bit, that all of them would have a better relationship because it wouldn't be about money or their oversight.

It's so clearly a toxic relationship. Which, even after asking for a divorce, she agreed with me whole-heartedly on. As soon as they pushed back at all, she folded like a cheap suit. Now she's saying I was trying to come between her and her parents all along, despite that I've always said that she has to decide what she wants to do, and measure how far she's willing to go specifically because I didn't her to do anything that would irrevocably damage the relationship she has with her parents. Family is VERY important to me. All I've ever tried to do was support her in her pursuit of the independence she said she wanted.

Now, somehow, I'm the enemy. Despite that, she made all the decisions of her own free will, and even did some stuff that I cautioned her against doing, precisely because it may damage the relationship with her parents, or work against her interest. It's all amazing!

[livednlearned]

Spouse threatens to kick me out of my home anytime I try to advocate for myself in discussions about how we proceed with the divorce.

Ugh. I'm so sorry you're in this horrible predicament. Trust funder relationships can be particularly tricky, and you've suggested there may be BPD traits running through the family tree. Being financially dependent on them during a divorce in a pandemic in an expensive city is a hard one-down position to be in, to say the least.

Can you walk us through what you mean when you say advocating for yourself? What specific language are you using?

Is this something she can do? She's recently started saying she feels unsafe with me being here. When I ask why, she says it's because she can hear me talking with my support network on the phone. I'm in a tenant apartment (the home has two units) despite that she said she would move into the tenant apartment, and the walls are pretty thin.

You're pissed and deeply hurt and it's understandable. She made a decision that is upending your life at the worst time. After all you've done, and the lip service she gives, now she's making threats while accusing you of being the bully. How did you respond when she said she could hear you talking?

We've not interacted at all besides discussions on how to continue forward with the end of our marriage, but anytime I try to advocate for myself in these discussions, she threatens to kick me out. If you fight me on this divorce she says, I'll kick you out of the house. That can't be right, can it. I basically did everything required to purchase the home, set it up for her, and maintain it for her. She's done about 5% of the work. Now I'm the one who's expected to leave?

If you can separate your living situation from everything else this stuff might become less fuzzy.

For many of us exiting a BPD relationship, leverage is how we move forward. I don't mean leverage in an exploitive way. I mean it as a way to lift heavy objects and move them.

Your situation probably has specific legal points of leverage because you're in NYC with its specific tenant laws. The rest is going to be a roller coaster that rises and falls depending on how she feels in that moment.

I can't even have a discussion with her about this stuff without her saying I'm bullying her (this is a new one she's started to bring up). From my perspective, I ask her what she wants, what she thinks is fair, she says she doesn't know. So I explain to her what I think the best options are. She picks one, runs with it, then blames me and gets mad at me as soon as it gets hard. Is this typical?

Emotionally she's a young child and you're asking her to decide things that, ultimately, have to get worked out with her parents. Is that accurate to say? She's your point of contact in your efforts to negotiate a soft landing ... how much pull does she really have? It doesn't seem like much given what you shared in earlier posts.

How did things go when you reached out to her parents?

Has anyone here gotten a favorable judgement based on emotional distress and caretaking?

No.

Divorces without kids tend to be treated like business contracts.

Family law courts are swamped with tragic cases of child abuse, domestic violence, unimaginable tragedies. It is a judicial process, not a place of justice.

It's not uncommon for one half of an aggrieved couple to appear in court hoping to get justice. Sometimes it's best to figure out what part can be handled with a therapist, and what part is cold, hard legal stuff and make sure they are separate in your mind.

Hard to do, I know.

[formflier]

That system held until she went to treatment, something they fought me on.

They're also ninjas of agreeing to something as if it's no big deal, then in the 11th hour of complicated processes, adding all kinds of stipulations and conditions.
 

So...they did NOT want her to go to treatment?

What did they want for her?

Out of curiosity, can you give an example or two of "adding stipulations/conditions?"

Best,

FF

[Scared2Lose]

Can you walk us through what you mean when you say advocating for yourself? What specific language are you using?
 

I usually say things like, this is what I gave up to be in this relationship, so this is what I think is fair going forward. I've always said one thing and one thing only, we need to move forward with something that YOU think is fair as well. Because, if you have to fight with your parents for it, you need to believe in what you're fighting for. She now says I bullied her into agreeing to anything she's agreed to.

How did you respond when she said she could hear you talking?

Well, to be clear, she said she could hear me yelling as a response to the question, how do I specifically make you feel unsafe? I think my response was something like, "I'm in my own private apartment talking to my friends." Then added something like, "You know, the apartment you forced me into." Which in retrospect was probably stupid.

Emotionally she's a young child and you're asking her to decide things that, ultimately, have to get worked out with her parents. Is that accurate to say? She's your point of contact in your efforts to negotiate a soft landing ... how much pull does she really have? It doesn't seem like much given what you shared in earlier posts.

How did things go when you reached out to her parents?

This is what is so crazy to me. Her dad told me that I had to work it out with her. Implying that he'd be open to at least listen to an offer. He specifically asked her through email to submit an offer. Then her Ma went crazy on HER for our initial suggestion. Not me for coming up with the number, but my wife for even considering it. It was a really toxic email if I'm honest. Kind of cleared up why my wife has such poor coping skills.

Divorces without kids tend to be treated like business contracts.

Right, and that's what I've been hearing from lawyers. Well kind of. But here's why I'm confused. If I started a business with someone, and they constantly promised certain benchmarks and performances over the first two years, saying stuff like, "Don't worry about your responsibilities, take over mine cause I can't, and I'll cover you with my salary or whatnot." Then when it became inconvenient for them to meet those promises, they denied ever having made them and also accuse you of being horrible at your job. I think I could sue them pretty easily. And the end result of all this was that the business failed. I think I could sue them pretty easily. At the very least I think I could get what's left of the business so I could liquidate it or whatnot. Also, if they undertook the business saying they were a mechanic, but had no idea how to fix cars, I'm sure I could recoup what was paid to them in salary.

I don't know, it seems to me that BPD should be a considered factor when someone undertakes the job of being in a relationship. Either invalidating the relationship from the start, or fraudulent misrepresentation of their ability to do what they say they can do.

[Scared2Lose]

So...they did NOT want her to go to treatment?

What did they want for her?

They did not want her to go to inpatient treatment. As to what they wanted her to do instead? I'm not entirely sure. Despite that I was the only one communicating with them at the time (my wife just could not), they never once suggested an alternative. Their management style is one of always pointing out problems but never suggesting solutions. It's super aggravating.

Out of curiosity, can you give an example or two of "adding stipulations/conditions?"

Well, access to her trust is a biggy. They never had one complaint about the amount or frequency of her distribution requests, until she wanted to enter treatment. Then they asserted micro control over everything, demanding total access to her psychiatrists and therapists, and making a condition of her receiving funds that she tell her providers to speak freely with them. 

[ForeverDad]

I'm assuming she's a legal adult?  Then could she seek outpatient care without telling her parents?  I mean nothing at all.  I mean, is she required to divulge everything to them?  Or can she not say No when they demand personal info?

I'm feeling she can't stand up to her parents?  Maybe she could start first by learning how to set boundaries with her parents, such as "I can talk about lots of things with my parents but not what I'm doing for therapy, etc."

As for treating a divorce without kids as basically a business unwinding, that is the perspective not the actual approach or details of action.

[Scared2Lose]

I'm assuming she's a legal adult?  Then could she seek outpatient care without telling her parents?  I mean nothing at all.  I mean, is she required to divulge everything to them?  Or can she not say No when they demand personal info?

Sorry, that was unclear. She's already been to inpatient treatment. I just had to fight with them about it. They're the type of people who are always telling you that what you're doing is wrong. 

I'm feeling she can't stand up to her parents?  Maybe she could start first by learning how to set boundaries with her parents, such as "I can talk about lots of things with my parents but not what I'm doing for therapy, etc."

This is 100% true. The problem is that she made promises to me throughout our marriage and since she asked for the divorce, but as soon as her parents brought down the hammer, she backed out of those promises immediately. Then she accused me of forcing her to make those promises, which is simply not true.

As for treating a divorce without kids as basically a business unwinding, that is the perspective not the actual approach or details of action.

If this was my business, and she was my partner in the business, I'd be taking her to court for gross negligence or something, maybe willfully being awful at her job.

[livednlearned]

Have you retained a divorce lawyer?

I'm curious about this, too.

[Scared2Lose]

I'm curious about this, too.

Yeah, I'm talking to three different ones. I want to make sure I have the right fit since her parents are going to pay for the best lawyer money can buy.

Has anyone here sued for emotional distress? I feel like a lot of the stories I read would fall under the outrageous conduct requirement.

[Scared2Lose]

So here's a new wrinkle. I've not spoken to the wife at all in 7 days. Not since she accused me of all that stuff, and threatened to kick me out of the house.

She sends me an email today to tell me that her Ma won't pay for her lawyer unless the wife allows her Ma into every meeting with the lawyer and basically knows everything about the case. My wife indicates she's not willing to do that then concluded by suggesting a ridiculous nuclear option to resolve everything.  Fine, end of email.

Then, my wife follows that email with another saying exactly this, "Honestly, I was worried about emotional blackmail (you bringing up anything about my emotional health or sexual activity) and that's the only reason why I set that boundary."

My first thought was that she's equating emotional blackmail with, you know, a divorce proceeding.

That was a few hours ago now, and I'm not sure how to respond, or even if I should. Any advice? I know the wife is in a lot of pain. I'd like to say something so she doesn't think I'm ignoring her. But my gut tells me that's a bad idea, and if my gut is wrong, my head tells me I have a knack for saying the wrong things. Any and all suggestions are welcome.

[formflier]

My wife indicates she's not willing to do that then concluded by suggesting a ridiculous nuclear option to resolve everything.  

What was the nuclear option?


Did she ask you a question?  if not...no need to respond.

Best,

FF

[livednlearned]

My first thought was that she's equating emotional blackmail with, you know, a divorce proceeding.

For your own safe, I would try to understand where she is coming from because there could be a kernel of truth in here for her. This can help you prevent things from getting worse (again, for you).

Is there a chance you will bring her mental health issues and sexuality up in the divorce proceedings?

Which one of you will be filing for divorce (plaintiff)?

[ForeverDad]

Generally these courts don't care about compensation for emotional hurts, they presume you're both adults.  As in, If you get hurt, then just leave.  Your local lawyer ought to advise you on which local options to pursue, if any.

Remember what the Splitting handbook advises, choose an experienced lawyer who knows how to deal with the tough issues in and out of court and has good practical strategies.

I too ask, what in general was her nuclear option?  Was it against her mother, or you?

For most who arrive here and decide it's time to end the relationship, the best way is to unwind the relationship, let go and move on with your life.  Reparations are typically unlikely.

Often a clean break is needed, that will be easier since you don't have children together.   As for closure, you'll probably have to Gift yourself closure, you won't get it from her parents and probably not even her.

[Scared2Lose]

Is there a chance you will bring her mental health issues and sexuality up in the divorce proceedings?

Which one of you will be filing for divorce (plaintiff)?

If we aren't able to work out a deal that treats me fairly for all I've given up to enter into this marriage, I will have to make a case in court. I can't imagine her mental health issues or sexual activity wouldn't come up. I mean, isn't that kind of what a divorce proceeding is?

I've been told by lawyers that where I live it doesn't really matter who files first. And I've been trying to work through our issues up until recently. So I don't actually know. I suppose I will end up doing it in the end. Her modus operendi is to force my hand and then blame me for the outcome.

[ForeverDad]

I felt good being the Plaintiff, though I guess it didn't impact my case much, if at all.  Somehow, though, I feel it would have been worse to be the defendant, with all the child abuse allegations she attempted.

I almost laughed when her lawyer tried to get me to admit I was a controller, that I wanted her back to control her.  Ha!  I was the one who filed for divorce.  I saw I had to get out and so I was able to state in court testimony I didn't want her back (the way she was).  He had failed and shifted his strategy after that.

As for getting compensation for your suffering, remember that most states are more or less No Fault, their focus is on unwinding the relationship and splitting marital assets, not fairness nor equitable outcome.

[formflier]

Can you file for "fault" divorce in your state?

I would guess you would feel better about it if you filed first...what do you think?

Best,

FF

[Scared2Lose]

I can file for a "fault" divorce. And I've looked into that. But the lawyers tell me it doesn't really matter. They've said "fault" is more of a holdover from when one needed a reason for divorce. Since my state has no-fault divorce, it no longer really matters why someone is divorcing anymore, and those things are on the books still as a formality more than anything.

As far as whether or not it will make me feel better, I don't honestly know. I'm worried doing that will push her in the wrong direction (toward chaos and panic). She has this thing about people trying to control her, but also this other thing about being completely overwhelmed by the smallest conflict or hardship. Good times all around.

 

[Scared2Lose]

Generally these courts don't care about compensation for emotional hurts, they presume you're both adults.  As in, If you get hurt, then just leave.  Your local lawyer ought to advise you on which local options to pursue, if any.

I'm in an equitable distribution state. And from what I've read, in a short marriage, the courts will try to return both parties to the state they were in before the marriage. I gave up a lot to enter into this marriage (sold a house, shuttered businesses, moved), and I will definitely be worse for wear for having been in it.

Because of her mental and physical needs, I systematically gave up or lost employment opportunities, and was made to become reliant on her for financial reasons. While the opposite is true for her. Basically, almost of all of what she has is a direct result of her involvement with me.

I'm not looking for reparations. What I'm looking for is equitable distribution of what was put into the marriage, what was sacrificed for it, and consider that when unwinding our lives together.

Essentially, just in order to move on from the marriage, I will have to go into massive debt to rebuild my life.

I too ask, what in general was her nuclear option?  Was it against her mother, or you?

The nuclear option is not against anyone really. It's more of a no-win for anyone where she's able to move on without ever having to face the consequences of her actions. Essentially, she wants us both to move out, and to sell the house ASAP. Neither of which are all that viable considering both the rental and sale market. It's not a smart or considered move no matter how you look at it.