First attempt to break out of the drama triangle - feedback appreciated

[Bluesapphire]

I posted the other day about my NC with my BPD mother and my likely BPD brother who has been serving as a flying monkey for my mom-learned that term from here 

My brother had sent an angry text in the middle of the night, to which I chose not to respond thanks to support I got from this group!

He reached out again today and I attempted to use some strategies I'm learning from the Margalis Fjelstad book and information from this site.

Below is my conversation with him and I'd appreciate any feedback on what I could have done differently or skills that might be helpful for me going forward. I know the conversation didn't go great, especially towards the end. I feel like I've got some very shaky training wheels on my bike with the skills I'm trying to learn and figuring out how to keep my bike upright as I navigate stepping out of the Caretaker role in the drama triangle!

Text from the other night that I didn't respond to:
How long are you going to punish mom and play these foolish games? You can get mad at me and say its moms fault blah blah blah I don't care who's fault it is. Simply don't give a f***! But I do know that if you continue down this path you will regret it. Mom is not well it's questionable if after the next few months she will be able to get out of a wheelchair. Stop your fish selfish games and talk to her. I don't have your side on this I think YOU are being ridiculous.

Today's conversation:
Brother:So just nothing huh? No response? Is this really the way you want to deal with this?
Me: No I am not going to respond to aggressive text messages such as the one you sent the other night
B: Ok well it seems you don't want to respond to anything.
M: Why do you feel that I don't want to respond to anything?
B: Why are you so unwilling to talk to mom?
M: I'm not unwilling to talk to mom
B: All she knows is that you were angry she called the police for a wellness check...
B: You haven't spoken to her in months even when she has reached out.
M: I have responded every time she has reached out and also reached out to her
B: When did you reach out to her?
M: Yes I was angry when she called me 30+ times, texted 10+ times, and called the police on me when I was away from my phone for a little over an hour
B: Ok so that's justification for not speaking to her for months?
M: Like I said I have responded every time she had reached out and also reached out to her
B: When did you reach out? It wasn't an hour I've seen the messages and conversation history. You said you would call her never did she got concerned and then texted you then sure she texted and called multiple times before she called the police.
B: But why does any of that matter it was all done out of worry for you. Why be so angry that you don't communicate for months?
M: I didn't say I would call, it was about an hour and 20 min, it matters because that is out of control behavior to call the cops after not being able to reach someone for less than 2 hours, and I have communicated with her
M: If mom wants to talk to me about any of this she is welcome to, but I don't understand why you are getting involved in it and becoming angry with me
B: So there was a misunderstanding about you guys talking that led to her becoming worried and calling/texting that resulted in calling for a wellness check. I get being angry for a week or even two but really 2 months have gone by and you can't pick up the phone to resolve this? You really think mom is in a position to call you after this I mean in her mind calling you is how this all started.
Why am I angry. I'm angry because you know what this does to mom you know how this type of family conflict impacts her. She had a good opportunity to make some very substantial changes with this medical leave and heading into retirement. Instead of focusing on those changes she has been worried day in and day out about her relationship with you. Of course it makes me angry when this could all have been resolved through you simply reaching out and having a conversation.
M: Mom is capable of solving her own problems, if she didn't want to be worried about her and I's relationship she could have called to talk to me
B: Typical for you to not take any responsibility for how your actions affect others. Like I said why would mom call you when calling you started this in the first place.
M: Calling me 30+ times is what started this, that doesn't mean she can't call me if she is wanting to discuss the situation
B: I mean you make me even feel like I'm a burden to you when I call. Can't remember the last time you chose to call me that wasn't simply a return call or text  to see how I am doing.
M: I'm sorry you don't recall times that I have called you that wasn't just me returning a call or text
B: Ok well it's clear you don't want to accept any responsibility. That is certainly up to you but it doesn't meet my expectations of a relationship I want to continue.
M: What responsibility do you want me to take? I don't keep track of who calls or texts first between us. Do you initiate contacting me more yes, but that doesn't mean I never initiate contacting you
B: Just actually care about your family and treat them as if you do. That means not treating them like a burden and actually taking an interest in what is going on in there lives even when you don't have your own news or exciting events to share. I have called you or texted multiple times to see how you were doing. The same is never returned and when I do start talking about something often times it's met with you having to deal with dogs or I just got home or...your too busy to have a real relationship yet you will cry to me in my kitchen that we used to be so close and have grown apart. Then I try and just get the same your a burden I have to deal with occasionally response. Well I'm not cool with that.
B: Yeah let me break out my record log that's what this is about...
M: It seems you feel I never take an interest in what is going on in your life, but I don't feel that that is the case. When we talk (regardless of who initiates) I am curious about what is going on in your life. I do not view you as a burden, but I don't particularly enjoy talking on the phone to anyone. To stay connected to people though I do talk on the phone, but to be on the phone for hours is not enjoyable to me. I'm sorry that me having to deal with the dogs or just getting home from work makes you feel that I don't care about you. It has nothing to do with how I feel about you, those things are simply tasks going on in my day which are hard for me to talk on the phone during. One challenge that I have is that despite me trying to talk with you more is that whatever I do doesn't seem to be good enough and I feel like I am just waiting for you to get upset with me.
B: Again just more excuses and taking zero accountability for the way you make people feel. I don't like to talk on the phone...then how am I supposed to interact with you? I have responsibilities including dogs and work...yeah we just sit at home with no responsibilities to attend to. When do you try to talk to me? I am the one that was pressed on our relationship through you crying in my kitchen. Then when I try to make a more concerted effort to re-establish that relationship you tell me "I don't like to talk on the phone."
M: While I don't enjoy talking on the phone, I do it because I understand that is how to stay connected to people so I'm not sure why you're asking how you're supposed to interact with me. I do talk to you on the phone and I text you. When we are talking and you have things to attend to we end the conversation, I don't take it personally that you need to do something else. Previously you would get angry that I never answered when you called or called you back. I have made a concerted effort to work on that, but now you are upset that I'm not the one to initiate the contact as frequently as you initiate.
B: You know what you win... take your win and have zero accountability cause it's clear to me that defending your actions and the way they have impacted your family is what's most important to you. So you WIN here's your prize (he inserted celebration emojis). Hope it was worth it cause what I think you have done to mom is cruel and I have nothing more to say.

I did not respond after this since I had made it clear that I would not respond to aggressive messages from him any longer. Also for reference the time I was crying in his kitchen was after my father died and he got angry that I missed his phone calls when I was cleaning out my father's house.

[Methuen]

Bluesapphire, I would like to commend you for remaining both in control of your emotions, and curious with your brother. This was a taxing conversation, and must feel like one of those "impossible" situations.

I think you navigated this reasonably well because you kept your cool, and it didn't devolve into a yelling match. Also, neither of you  hung up on the other.  I'm no expert, but my suggestions would be to keep your main messages even simpler.  eg:

Mom is capable of solving her own problems, if she didn't want to be worried about her and I's relationship she could have called to talk to me

When he gaslighted you after you made this statement (by telling you it's clear you don't want to take any responsibility), instead of feeling the need to justify, argue, defend or explain yourself (JADE - which doesn't work with BPD's), just repeat your point that this is between you and mom, and you are happy to visit with him about other things, but not about your relationship with mom.  Then change the topic.  Repeat as necessary.

This sets a  boundary that  talking about mom is off limits.  It's a simple message, but an important one. He may push back in the beginning, but if you stick to the script, and  enforce your own boundary, he will eventually catch on.  If he keeps gaslighting you,  say " I have to go now, we can talk later when we  are both feeling better. "  This is one way of stepping off the drama triangle.  You chat with him about other things, but not your relationship with mom.  When you do have a positive conversation about something else, say "I really enjoyed our visit today", and reward him for not talking about mom.

I know the conversation didn't go great, especially towards the end. I feel like I've got some very shaky training wheels on my bike with the skills I'm trying to learn and figuring out how to keep my bike upright as I navigate stepping out of the Caretaker role in the drama triangle!

 What things do you think you did well?  Identify those first, and focus on your success.  Write them down.  Reward yourself.  After that, the fine tuning can start.
   Each of our situations with our pwBPD is different, but what I found helped me was recognizing how much JADEing I was doing, and how this contributed to the problems.  It was like adding fuel to the fire.  Yet at the time, I couldn't see I was a part of the problem.  I also didn't understand my mom's disease well, so reading and learning about it really helped.  I also really tackled learning the strategies under "how to get the most out of this website", and practiced using them.  I love your analogy of having shaky training wheels on your bike, and wanting to learn to keep your bike upright.  Setting boundaries, using SET, asking validating questions, and not JADEing has all really helped me keep my bike upright.  Also super important, was learning to take care of my own needs, which I now recognize is not selfish (contrary to what my mother used to tell me). Not gonna lie, I occasionally still fall off my bike, but it's not nearly as often, and not as bad.

I think the training wheels on your bike are doing their job.  I'm guessing this conversation went better than some past conversations you've had with brother or mother. The fact that you are motivated to learn is in my opinion the most important skill necessary in all this.  It's so much easier to blame the other person and give up, than to look for our role in it, and try to figure out what to do differently.  For me, I would try a new skill, reflect and analyze, then practice a script ahead of time, try again, repeat.  I also had support from T, and this forum.  I also kept a practiced script for SET I kept in my phone and referred to it daily, until I felt comfortable enough to use it.  The first few times weren't textbook, but with practice I got better at it.  Any SET is going to get better results than a JADE.  With regards to your relationship with your brother, are there any neutral topics you have in common?  Kids?  Sports?  Current events?  I would suggest fostering conversation with him on neutral topics, and not engaging talking about mother.  Do you think it could work to set that boundary for yourself?

Your situation sounds tough.  All you can do is your best to manage it.  And look after yourself.  The better and stronger you are feeling, the better you will be able to manage them, if that makes sense.

[Notwendy]

Oh dear, this sounds a lot like the behavior of my mother's family members who assume I need to be the one to go along with my BPD mom's wishes regardless of her behavior.

Although for some people, NC is the best choice, to really do it, one needs to be NC with the whole group of them or there is constant pressure to go along with the family dynamics as you have seen with your brother.

All families establish a pattern of coexistence between family members- a sort of balance of roles. When relationships are emotionally healthy- the patterns are too. When there is a disordered family member, to get to a comfortable balance, other members take on different roles- like enabling the disordered person, or overcompensating for them. When one member changes their behavior- it throws the family off balance- and they feel the discomfort. The first response is to get the "wayward" family member back into line- as you have seen your brother do. Mom isn't comfortable- which then makes other family members uncomfortable- so YOU have to get back in line. If this attempt doesn't work, then they may cast out the family member who isn't going along with it, and establish a new balance.

I attempted NC with my BPD mother many years ago, I was younger. The problem was that I still wanted to have a relationship with my father, and the two were a pair- and so it was truly impossible to have a relationship with him and not her. Of note, the suggestion to go NC was from a counselor at the time, in response to how her emotionally abusive behavior was affecting me. But it was not a workable solution due to the family dynamics and my own co-dependent patterns. Also, anything I communicated with my father was shared with my mother. I could not have a relationship with him as a separate person.

I did attempt to have boundaries with her later and experienced the kind of reaction from family members that you are experiencing now- the pressure to get back into the enabling pattern.

I then settled on an emotional boundary- what we call here as "LC". Contact but without strong emotions. I don't share personal or emotional information with her. For examples, who you are dating- you don't have to share that, but if the person becomes someone likely to join the family- then at some point you do inform your mother since that person would be included in family events. I might share information such as " kid's soccer team won the tournament" but not what colleges they would be applying to as that's emotionally stressful for them and she'd want to question them and discuss it. However once they choose a college, saying " so and so is attending college X" is less emotional and more factual.

She has been frustrated by the lack of emotional content as it is a way she can get into an emotional situation. I have found that sadly, that is the basis of our relationships in our families, drama and fear of her, but I don't want to interact with her in that way. Read up on the Karpman triangle and you will see how your mother, brother, and you play out the roles.

When my father died, my mother was angry at me at the time. It was a possible moment to break contact but I didn't feel OK with that. A wise friend advised me to call her at scheduled times. This way she knows I will call her at a certain day, and so if I don't have time to speak at other times, there isn't a panic like what you saw with your mother calling. You can then text back "hi mom, I'm busy right now but we can talk at our usual time".

It takes time and practice, and the tools here help but in time, reducing the emotions and drama in your interactions can help. If NC is truly what you need to do, then NC with both your mother and brother may be necessary.

[Bluesapphire]

Thanks for the feedback and support! I have really been struggling lately with an increase in my mom and brother's abusive comments and emotional manipulation of me. This board has been helpful in making me see that I am not "crazy," I deserve to be happy, and helping me learn better ways to communicate with them.

When he gaslighted you after you made this statement (by telling you it's clear you don't want to take any responsibility), instead of feeling the need to justify, argue, defend or explain yourself (JADE - which doesn't work with BPD's)

Methuen thank you for this! Yes I need to really working on JADEing! I know that me trying to get them to see my side is a futile effort, their reality of the situation and my reality of the situation are completely different and no matter how hard I argue, explain, etc nothing is going to make them see things from my perspective. I struggle with this because I am so angry and hurt right now by their comments towards me and I want them to recognize how they are treating me, but I need to learn to accept that this is never going to be the way it is. I will not get an apology from either of them and if I keep feeding into them with my justifications, defensiveness, and arguing it is only going to escalate the situation. So much easier rationally knowing this vs putting it into practice though!

When one member changes their behavior- it throws the family off balance- and they feel the discomfort. The first response is to get the "wayward" family member back into line- as you have seen your brother do. Mom isn't comfortable- which then makes other family members uncomfortable- so YOU have to get back in line. If this attempt doesn't work, then they may cast out the family member who isn't going along with it, and establish a new balance.

 Notwendy thank you for pointing this out to me! I need to remind myself that when I do things to upset the dynamics of this situation by having boundaries and working to step out of my role as the rescuer/Caretaker that is is to be expected that they are going to do what they need to do to try and get me back in line. Both of their verbal attacks on me have been escalating lately- more angry, more hurtful, more gaslighting...rather than be thrown off by this and fall into my old habits I need to remind myself to not take it personally and recognize their behavior for what it is- trying to push my new boundaries to see if they can beat them down and make me go back to my usual role.

I think the training wheels on your bike are doing their job.

Methuen thanks! I thought the bike training wheel analogy was a good fit for how I'm feeling Very shaky and not knowing how to trust my new skills! That being said the training wheels fell off in a text message assault from my mom yesterday. Wheels fell off, bike fell over on me, I kept picking the bike back up and throwing it on myself over and over ! I definitely slipped back into arguing, defending, justifying, etc. I knew it was escalating the situation, but I just didn't care. I was so angry that I wanted her to know. In the end it got me nowhere and just fed into her fuel against me. But today I am picking myself back up, reattaching the training wheels, and maybe seeing if I can get the bolts a little tighter to help them stay on