gaslighting? reality? is it just me…?

[CityMouse]

Hello all,
I have had this forum bookmarked for a while, but finally got up the guts to write a first post a couple days ago. When I shared what I’d written (a synopsis of my relationship with my wife- which was probably way too long…) with a friend who has a similar story, she said…

“Wow. I wouldn’t even know how to respond. Except maybe with a sad emoji.”

Nobody’s responded yet… so I’m trying again…

I’m desperate to know I’m not actually alone. When my wife yells and talks over me, she says I’m the problem, and accuses me of thinking, feeling (and sometimes doing) things that aren’t true for me (or just plain made up facts). It might be one random word I’ve said that sets her off, and then it’s like a runaway train.

On an average day, I feel like a total loser for not setting better boundaries. On a bad day, I take her accusations to heart and gaslight myself into thinking all the bad stuff she says is true. And on a good day, when we have normal conversations and she spontaneously says “I love you” etc. I question what version of “reality” is real… My sense of self and my identities- especially  as a mother and grad student- are getting twisted and lost.

Last night my wife  couldn’t remember how many years we’ve been married. And she recounted things I know I never said. It feels like she’s rewriting history to justify being angry and dumping me. Is all this just me?

Please help. I welcome constructive feedback and encouragement.

[PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES]

PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members may appear frustrated but they are here for constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[Couper]

And she recounted things I know I never said. It feels like she’s rewriting history to justify being angry and dumping me.

Are you keeping a journal of these contentious discussions when they occur?  I know it's not specifically what you asked, but it goes along with it that you are probably also having exchanges, and then when those exchanges are being rehashed in the future you are being told that what was stated or occurred is different than you remember (or perhaps never even occurred at all).  

Having a journal is not so you can use it to disprove them face-to-face at a later date, but so that you can reference back to it and confirm for yourself that you are not losing your marbles.  Before even finding my way here, I started doing this a few years ago and it has been very helpful.  As soon as the exchange ends, I sit down and write it out while it is still fresh on my mind.  It also provides a way of processing it so I can find closure and move on rather than letting it live rent free in my head for the rest of the day.  In instances where past issues have been rehashed differently at a later date, I go back and add that to the journal and then I have something I can see with my own eyes to confirm that I didn't just imagine everything.

However, remember, you are doing it for yourself.  No amount of evidence to the contrary will bring the afflicted back to earth.

  

[Ventak]

Hi CityMouse, welcome to the family.

Most of us on this site have experienced the same issues you describe in one form or another.  Your description very accurately describes my relationship with my BPDw.  It is a daily challenge for both of us.

One thing to understand is that pwBPD don't have memories formed the same way as you do.  For them the memory is formed to match the emotion they are feeling at the time, and is changeable over time to match the emotion of the moment.  This makes discussions of events very difficult, but in my experience all of the data in the world that doesn't fit the narrative of those emotions will be ignored and excuses made why the data is not valid.  Any disagreements are typically met with anger. 

With my BPDw an interesting discussion we have is her knowing and fully agreeing that she does this, but on any single issue she refuses to accept it might have happened and accuses me of gaslighting if I mention it... which triggers her anger.

Another thing to understand is that most pwBPD do what my BPDw calls the "push-away".  She frequently pushes away people she is close to before they have the chance to do the same to her.  All of the love and support you can give will never be enough to overcome the fear of abandonment she developed as a child.  My BPDw has asked for divorce at least 100 times and is probably close to 200 after 10 years together.

What would you say is your most difficult struggle at the moment?

[EZEarache]

I’m desperate to know I’m not actually alone. When my wife yells and talks over me, she says I’m the problem, and accuses me of thinking, feeling (and sometimes doing) things that aren’t true for me (or just plain made up facts). It might be one random word I’ve said that sets her off, and then it’s like a runaway train.

Yeah... You're not alone. I did a recording of one of my exwBPD's fights, a while back. She accused me of being the problem. She talked over me. She said things that were not true. She wouldn't let me get a word in edgewise. Man, I was just trying to understand what the plans were for childcare...

Then last week she said regarding the fight how, "You wouldn't let me get a word in edgewise. I'm sick of you rewriting history. You're psychotic!"

You're not alone. It's a lot to deal with. Just try to be strong and maintain your dignity and composure. It really isn't easy.

[CityMouse]

Are you keeping a journal of these contentious discussions when they occur?  I know it's not specifically what you asked, but it goes along with it that you are probably also having exchanges, and then when those exchanges are being rehashed in the future you are being told that what was stated or occurred is different than you remember (or perhaps never even occurred at all).  

Thank you for this idea. I do journal everyday as part of my recovery process, so I have snippets of exchanges here and there mixed in with other things. But reading your post I’m thinking it may be helpful to keep a separate “reality check” journal for my own sanity. These conversations not only linger “rent free” in my head, but they seem to have teamed up with my inner “love addict” voice to charge heavy tolls (mostly in energy) whenever I revisit them. :P

[CityMouse]

My apologies if I’m all over the place with these reply boxes- I haven’t gotten the hang of quoting a reply yet… Thank you all for being here and letting me know I’m not alone. I cried just seeing the responses pop up.

The information about how pwBPD form memories is both very helpful and kinda terrifying for me right now. Since my wife has insisted on mediation and we are in that process, trying to agree on facts and timelines is actually the task at hand. My wife has not (to the best of my knowledge) ever been formally diagnosed with BPD and is not open to talking about anything related to mental health.

As for my most difficult struggle at the moment…

(Ugh- I’m crying again) … I guess it’s that I know 3 things for certain: 1) I love my wife, 2) I don’t want to divorce AND
3) our current relationship dynamics are not sustainable long term- we need help. I feel sad and helpless to change the course of events (heading for break up), especially when she’s bullying (as she’s the more dominant one of us and also the breadwinner). Before this point I took her threats to the marriage as expressions of pain (not personal) and I tried to reflect feelings, listen and empathize. That worked well until it didn’t.

I was thinking a period of separation might be helpful to calm things down, but would it really?  How do I navigate the conversations with the mediator?

[EZEarache]

I was thinking a period of separation might be helpful to calm things down, but would it really?

From my experience the separation just made things worse. I was hoping that if I had my own space, we'd be able to rekindle the good times when we saw each other less frequently. We are co-parenting, so I still have to see her a couple of times a week. So I thought, if we spent quality time with the little one, maybe we'd be able to reconcile. Didn't work that way, at all. What ended up happening, is it just made her split even more firmly on me. At that point there was no way for me to convince her, that I didn't want to leave, I just wanted the fighting to end. Once the fear of abandonment became more tangible with a physical absence, there was no way to turn things around and reverse course. In spite of all the messed up things she's said and done to me over the past exactly 6 months, I would still take her back if she could just one time admit that she had acted inappropriately and apologize. Realistically, this will never happen, for me. If you truly want to salvage the relationship, I wouldn't go down the separation road. It just makes things more scary and the fear of abandonment a reality for the BPD. Then they split hard to prevent any self assessment or awareness that their behavior is problematic and just focus on the fact that you left them. Your leaving winds up being the problem. Not, the fighting that caused you to need to leave in the first place.

How do I navigate the conversations with the mediator?

Just be honest, and yourself. Let the BPD, be the BPD. In my case, she completely flipped out on the therapist in a session. It ended up being really helpful for me, because he was able to confirm my suspicions of BPD, partially as a result. I wouldn't bring up the disorder in the session(s). Just elaborate on what you are experiencing. Try not to point blame at your wife in the session. Talk about what you are experiencing, not what she is doing. Use I statements, "I feel like I am in a fight all the time, and it makes me sad." Etc. Let her shift the blame into "you" statements. Well if you didn't park the car crooked in the driveway, then there would be no need to yell. How could you be so inconsiderate?"  That should give the mediator a sense of what is really going on in the relationship.

[thankful person]

Hi city mouse,
I just wanted to say, you are not alone, I can absolutely relate to your experiences as my bpd wife is extremely similar.
I’m not good with this website either, always on my phone and in a hurry, but I liked this quote from ventak:
“For them the memory is formed to match the emotion they are feeling at the time, and is changeable over time to match the emotion of the moment.”
This completely describes my experiences, particularly when we first met, where I thought a day had gone really well and that we were getting on well and then she suddenly turns as says she’s had a horrible time and been upset/angry/disappointed? (I don’t know, she doesn’t really use those words) but basically unhappy about something I said or did or didn’t say or do… and acts like it’s been bothering her all day… when the reality tells me she was actually pretty happy all day, and then her mood changed for some reason.
I am also struggling at the moment and this website is being a lifeline for me, people are so kind and supportive and seem very wise to bpd. I am personally trying to take some of the power back at the moment with visiting my parents, taking photos of the children, and even having showers… ridiculous isn’t it.? Anyway, I wish you all the best.

[CityMouse]

Hi Broken person,
Thank you for reaching out. I agree- this website is great with all the information and support. Just knowing other people can relate gave me enough hope today that I didn’t break down sobbing (yet! :P).
I hear you on the good day/bad day thing. There have been many times I’ve thought were really good over the past few years… But if I comment on them (“it was really nice to hang out today” or “that movie cracked me up- I’m so glad we decided to go” etc etc) then I’ve just about guaranteed that within the next hour my wife will remind me that just because something seemed good, she’s still stressed out and nothing has changed about her intention to leave. So I’m learning to just keep quiet and enjoy those times without comment.
I also relate to the “taking power back, self care” thing. I’m not so good at it, but I know I need more of that. Hope the rest of your week goes well!
~City Mouse

[thankful person]

Yes I also never mention that anything went well anymore, I would just get reminded that she’s still unhappy with our marriage and sex life and that “nothing has changed..”

[NonnyMouse]

Yes I also never mention that anything went well anymore, I would just get reminded that she’s still unhappy with our marriage and sex life and that “nothing has changed..”

No, never discuss the relationship! Even if she brings the subject up. It doesn't matter how good the relationship (now) is there is far more downside than upside to that conversation.

[alterK]

Yes, what Ventak says about how BPD memory works is very wise. Moral of this particular story is that talking about the past is useless. You end up arguing about what really did happen and why, and it degenerates into a "he said/she said" that solves nothing. I have tried to limit relationship conversations with my W to present and future tenses. She kind of goes along with this, although it's alien to her way of thinking (she has the memory of an elephant, though not always an accurate elephant). Still, my insisting on sticking to present and future--in as gentle and non-accusatory way as I can--usually brings down the heat.

[EZEarache]

(she has the memory of an elephant, though not always an accurate elephant). Still, my insisting on sticking to present and future--in as gentle and non-accusatory way as I can--usually brings down the heat.

Ha... Inaccurate elephant memory! Ha, I have to try and think of this when she starts challenging my sense of historic reality. Maybe, I'll be able to maintain my composure better and not get insulted.

Sticking to the Present and Future! Great tip! I will try to implement this in my communication, as well. Is that a tip you read in a book somewhere or did you figure it out on your own? If, in a book, which one? I don't recall reading this point before, but maybe I overlooked it.

[thankful person]

I also think that’s an interesting point about only discussing present and future. My wife is so jealous of my past, previous partners and friends, family, everything I’ve done, places I’ve been, everyone I’ve ever known or spent time with. Several times a day I think of little anecdotes I would share with my partner if I had a normal partner who would be interested and enjoy sharing my memories and not flip out. Never mind eh I’m well used to it now.

[alterK]

Sticking with present and future isn’t always easy. For me, like Broken, the temptation is to go to “glass half full” memories. Remember the good times we had in the past? So I feel this as kind of a loss, but I have to make myself stick to the same rules I ask her to.

And here’s a thought. I’m sure most of us on this forum have experienced—many times!—hearing the catalog of our past sins. First, these memories, accurate or not, really are alive for our BPD partners. They are tormented by them.

Second, it’s a defense. BPD people are fragile and often feel a threat when none is intended. What’s more natural than to bring out the familiar artillery and start banging away with accusations of past offenses? Even though this raises the level of anger, it still gets the pwBPD into a place where they feel safer, more in control.

So getting into an argument about the past—always unsolvable—is a conversation-stopper, a way of avoiding problem solving. After all, real problem solving in a relationship involves both people acknowledging that it takes two to tango. Tough for anyone, especially tough for a pwBPD.

[CityMouse]

And here’s a thought. I’m sure most of us on this forum have experienced—many times!—hearing the catalog of our past sins. First, these memories, accurate or not, really are alive for our BPD partners. They are tormented by them.

Second, it’s a defense. BPD people are fragile and often feel a threat when none is intended. What’s more natural than to bring out the familiar artillery and start banging away with accusations of past offenses? Even though this raises the level of anger, it still gets the pwBPD into a place where they feel safer, more in control.

Thank you for bringing up this point. Although my wife and I are going through a really tough time right now, I find it infinitely more helpful to be reminded about what’s really going on “behind the scenes” for her than to have friends just indulge my complaining.

I know I need to set better boundaries and to take care of myself— and I’m learning these skills— but the most heartbreaking part of our struggle for me is not about whatever happens (divorce or reconciliation). I know somehow I’ll survive. The heartbreak is my fear that the woman I love- the core part of her, the inner light that my spirit connected with— is somehow gone and dead.

Your words affirmed my gut feeling that I’m not crazy for still loving her and wanting to stay. Once in a while I catch a glimpse of her pain and anxiety when she thinks I’m not watching. I know what you said above is true.

[d0ul0s]

Last night my wife  couldn’t remember how many years we’ve been married. And she recounted things I know I never said. It feels like she’s rewriting history to justify being angry and dumping me. Is all this just me?

Hi, I have struggled with this with my (now ex-) BPD partner. Very soon after we started dating, I noticed that a lot of the grievances he brought up during a fight was about things I haven't done. And it sounded a lot like he was venting as though I was an avatar of his previous partners. And months into dating, I realised that his memory of events are not contiguous. They are either:
1. Selectively remembered based on the current emotional state he is in;
2. Drawn from previous relationships;
3. An actual memory of our conflict, but he only remembered the emotions at that point of conflict, and totally forgot that we resolved, talked about it, and that I apologised for my part, and made amends and changes (which he at some point acknowledged).
I began to realise that I may not be an actual person, but a manifestation of an image he constructs in his head. And that image is hardly based on objective discovery about me, or a bank of memories of our shared experiences. This makes me sad, and wondered if he has ever loved the real me, or just a constructed image of a perfectly good and a perfectly bad partner.

[alterK]

I can’t count the number of times I’ve said to my W, “I’m not your enemy!” Still, no matter how alienated she is from me at any particular time, she will turn to me for help with anything from fixing her computer solving a house problem. It’s really discouraging, as duOlOs says, to be treated as someone you aren’t by a person you love. But it might not be totally hopeless. Maybe underneath they know who you are, which is why they rely on you, stay with you, or keep coming back to you (I’m not 100% sure of this, because for my W her reasons for staying are at least partly financial).

I see how she is overwhelmed by these negative emotions, which control how she experiences everything. I think it must be terrible for her not to be able to be comforted by good memories of our years together. She denies being depressed, but she’s having all kinds of physical symptoms which I’m sure are related. I am working to try to make her feel safe again with me, and maybe I’ll be able to succeed. This may be too late for you duOlOs, but I hope it helps a little.

[thankful person]

Alterk I also constantly remind my wife that I’m “not the enemy” even though in her perception I do everything wrong. She can’t see how lucky she is to have a wife who is constantly trying to do everything to make her happy. Still I realise from the forum what a mess we are in… when I am nervous to call my mum, and get aggressively told to GET OUT while she gets comfortable on the sofa. Whilst trying to make her happy.. I have lost respect for myself… I’m trying to start again and respond differently and handle things better.. I know it’s going to be hard work.

[CityMouse]

he only remembered the emotions at that point of conflict, and totally forgot that we resolved, talked about it, and that I apologised for my part, and made amends and changes (which he at some point acknowledged).
I began to realise that I may not be an actual person, but a manifestation of an image he constructs in his head. And that image is hardly based on objective discovery about me, or a bank of memories of our shared experiences. This makes me sad, and wondered if he has ever loved the real me, or just a constructed image of a perfectly good and a perfectly bad partner.

d0ul0s, this makes me sad, too. My wife has gotten more verbally abusive as this mediation process has gone on. In the sessions she is calm (albeit with eye rolling if she doesn’t like what I say) but in between sessions anything I say- about any subject- can provoke intense anger. Tonight she said she can’t wait to move out so she doesn’t have to see my face.

Somewhere inside I *know* I am not the person she perceives me to be, but her contempt and vilification hit so hard I’m often left in shock, speechless and confused… and then of course ashamed for even thinking I could engage in a conversation. Perhaps if I remember the argument she is really having is with her perception of me, or with past partners or family members, I could at least walk away from the yelling more easily.

[CityMouse]

It’s really discouraging, as duOlOs says, to be treated as someone you aren’t by a person you love. But it might not be totally hopeless. Maybe underneath they know who you are, which is why they rely on you, stay with you, or keep coming back to you.

That’s exactly it- because of emotional neglect as a kid, I desperately want to be seen, heard, known. I don’t expect everyone to “get” me, but my brain cannot compute that someone who purportedly loves me would not only dismiss me, but would punish me for being, thinking or acting according to their own false beliefs.

[CityMouse]

Whilst trying to make her happy.. I have lost respect for myself… I’m trying to start again and respond differently and handle things better.. I know it’s going to be hard work.

I hear you. I’ve also lost my self-respect and my self-esteem is in the gutter. No matter how cute I actually am on any given day recently, I look in the mirror and see ugly. I break down crying in the middle of sentences… and remain utterly dumbfounded when her moods change. (Not that I don’t expect the volatility, just that there seems to be some wild new twist to each story or rage…)