How do you deal with avoidance/lack of commitment?

[poppy2]

Hi,

I honestly do not know where to direct this question, so I will try this board. It's meant for people who have to interact with their BPD on a regular basis. I'm hoping you can help me.

I'm usually on the detaching board, but what I have found most helpful in detaching is actually to find compassion for who my ex really is. She hid the BPD from me as she hides it from everyone in her life, so I have to do this work retrospectively.

I would really like to know - how do you deal with your pwBP's inability to make commitments? I felt like my partner made many 'emotional' and personal commitments to me while also always reserving a part of herself - one foot always potentially out the door, so to speak. She was very avoidant in general my question may speak best to people whose pwBPd also have avoidant traits. For my self-respect I tried to set some ultimatums and she also wormed out of them somehow, or they sent her into a rage (like, how dare I) which 'moved the goalposts' and also scared me.

I've read all the books and I understand the psychology - of engulfment/abandonment fears, for instance. I know that usually, if you just stick around and wait it out without pressuring them they come back, for instance after the silent treatment or a devaluation, like it's a cycle. What I'd really, really like to know is why you think your significant other, sibling or child cannot face the 'stability' of commitment?

Do you use any emotional tools to offer yourself stability while dealing with their uncertainty / flakiness? was there a moment in learning about the illness that you came to 'accept' that this is the way they are and they can't change? Because it sure is frustrating and very, very unstable to live with no future security.

I'm looking for knowledge that leads to acceptance because I've found recently it's the most powerful way to heal. If I was still in the relarionship I would be posting this question on this board. If you've come this far reading I can also give an example below:

After she stopped talking to me (we never broke up, and this and other signals made me feel like this was a way for her of 'keeping the door open' ), and after massive amounts of work by me, we exchanged several emails in which we both opened up at length and she admitted that she would like to see me in the future, but wasn't ready yet. At the time I felt like I could take this as a sign to ask for more respect for my needs, so in my reply I asked her to commit to at the very least repairing this situation at some point in the future, otherwise trust between us would be irreparably broken and I would need to move on. I  just got a one line reply dismissing me and telling me to move on as she 'wasn't in a position to make any commitments'... but the issue was also there the whole relationship, and that is why I'm asking about it.

Can anyone shine a light? thanks a lot for your time.



 

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[Deep Blue]

Hello poppy2,

I can only speak from my experience with my exwBPD. She suffered from the same habit of having “one foot out” type of behaviors. I think it is them 1. Putting up walls so that they can guard themselves from the potential of being hurt. 2. It gives them some degree of control to not be fully committed. 3. These are people who are terrified of abandonment, so they struggle with placing trust in other people, especially a significant other. Them forming a full commitment is synonymous with fully trusting an individual. And for them, if they fully trust in someone, that means that to some extent, their well-being as at the mercy of the person they trust, thus the other person has the ability to hurt them, which they don’t want at all.

Of course, this thought process and their behavioral choices are flawed. By refusing to trust, they not only create distance in the relationship, but they also constantly test the loyalty of the nonBPD partner in oftentimes very destructive ways. It’s the essence of “I hate you, don’t leave me”. If only they realized that this behavior IS the thing that destroys the relationship. They self sabotage and create a self fulfilling prophecy because no sane person will be unaffected by the “test” part of the cycle. But that’s the disorder. They are incapable of realizing this. They see reality through a different lense. Warped and hyper vigilant.

In my view, commitment for them is synonymous with trust and giving up control. And those are two things that BPD individuals are almost always if not always opposed to.

As for what you can do, I don’t think there’s much else that can be done on the mom’s end to be honest. You can only be yourself and extend them displays of trust and gratitude, but at the end of the day, they are an autonomous individual who must be willing to commit. If they are always dodgy with it, it’s not a fair relationship. In my perspective, I think the only chance there is of them having the ability to commit is through intensive therapy on their end. Otherwise, it will always be this vicious destructive cycle that is BPD.

- Deep Blue

[NotAHero]

 This also called “recycling” it’s one of BPD hallmarks. Problem is relationship gets worse after each cycle. I don’t think there is anything you can do on your side it’s up to them to try and get help and build trust.

[once removed]

I would really like to know - how do you deal with your pwBP's inability to make commitments?

its important to know that what you are describing is not necessarily a "bpd thing".

generally speaking, people with bpd press hard for commitments. require commitment. and over commit, themselves.

thats not at all to say no one with bpd has such a difficulty, or, for that matter, that it could not be related. it is to sort of distinguish between the disorder generally, the many variations and manifestations of bpd, and the unique interpersonal difficulty in your relationship.

I felt like my partner made many 'emotional' and personal commitments to me while also always reserving a part of herself - one foot always potentially out the door, so to speak. She was very avoidant in general my question may speak best to people whose pwBPd also have avoidant traits. For my self-respect I tried to set some ultimatums and she also wormed out of them somehow, or they sent her into a rage (like, how dare I) which 'moved the goalposts' and also scared me.

for example, without knowing more, this could be anything; anything from her not being as committed as you, to her being a generally flaky person, to her having intimacy issues, to you and her having very different ideas for the direction of the relationship. its hard to say without knowing more.

After she stopped talking to me (we never broke up, and this and other signals made me feel like this was a way for her of 'keeping the door open' ), and after massive amounts of work by me, we exchanged several emails in which we both opened up at length and she admitted that she would like to see me in the future, but wasn't ready yet. At the time I felt like I could take this as a sign to ask for more respect for my needs, so in my reply I asked her to commit to at the very least repairing this situation at some point in the future, otherwise trust between us would be irreparably broken and I would need to move on. I  just got a one line reply dismissing me and telling me to move on as she 'wasn't in a position to make any commitments'... but the issue was also there the whole relationship, and that is why I'm asking about it.

if this is what your post is related to specifically, there may be two explanations:

1. an ex partners needs go out the window when a relationship ends. such things become emotional labor. thats just human nature. its not really in any of us to help an ex partner heal. i dont mean to sound cold about it. take it from a guy that had a very difficult time detaching in every one of his relationships, and pushed his exes.

2. you may have been on very different pages. it sounds like the breakup wasnt clear/official. its possible that she felt that it was, or wanted it to be, or was confused and then wanted it to be. it sounds like you wanted resolution, to some extent on your terms. resolution may have meant something else to her.

what do you think?

[Ad Meliora]

I hope you get an answer to this Poppy2, I really do.  I can tell you're struggling to find the right answers, and you certainly are working hard.  Once R has some good comments to work with there.

Looking back to Lawson's book "Understanding the Borderline Mother" you recommended she talks about this to some extent on page 50.  She says it's going to take a minimum of 4 years of therapy 3-4 times a week.  Typical therapy taking  6-10 years.  Are you up for it?  Perhaps others here can speak to much reduced timelines and methods where their borderline partner truly accepts what they did while in your relationship, accepts they have a condition that can be altered. 

After more than one year my BPDex was unable to keep any commitments, even ones she made.  I allowed her to be in the driver's seat on all of that, and allowed her to have all her time and space needed and still she would intentionally sabotage any plans out of internal fears.  My ex, for people here, was a woman in her late 40s with untreated and likely undiagnosed BPD, so it was an entrenched condition.

She had one foot out the door the whole time.  Only after that full year of me pouring everything from my heart and soul into that relationship did I see her pause a millisecond before she put that foot in the door, but she still did it.  She hated being labeled as "flakey" btw, so I never did it, even if it was true.

I once told her to stop putting me "in a box".  She called me up and left a voice mail about how it was ridiculous for me to say that she was putting me in a box.  Towards the end of the relationship I found her to be right.  It was she that was in the box.   A plexiglass box where I could see her, but never reach her, never really touch her, never really connect on the heart to heart level I so desperately wanted to do.  She would smile at me from inside the box, and slowly walk away to the other corner, to the darkness where she couldn't be found.  It didn't matter if I screamed, and banged on the box.  I couldn't reach her.  Only she had the keys and she wasn't ready to come out.

[poppy2]

And for them, if they fully trust in someone, that means that to some extent, their well-being as at the mercy of the person they trust, thus the other person has the ability to hurt them, which they don’t want at all.

Of course, this thought process and their behavioral choices are flawed. By refusing to trust, they not only create distance in the relationship, but they also constantly test the loyalty of the nonBPD partner in oftentimes very destructive ways. It’s the essence of “I hate you, don’t leave me”. If only they realized that this behavior IS the thing that destroys the relationship. They self sabotage and create a self fulfilling prophecy because no sane person will be unaffected by the “test” part of the cycle. But that’s the disorder. They are incapable of realizing this. They see reality through a different lense. Warped and hyper vigilant.

. Otherwise, it will always be this vicious destructive cycle that is BPD.

- Deep Blue

Hey Deep Blue,

Thanks a lot for your reply. We are 100% on the same page in terms of impressions as for the reasons for these behaviours, as well as the sabotaging nature of them. It's good to at least know that somebody else experienced it this way.

What I was really confused by (and still am) is the "double nature" of the commitment /lack of commitment. Sometimes very in, sometimes very out. It's a testing strategy and I've even read accounts of this from the BPD perspective. It's also very cruel, if you're not prepared for it by reading about BPD (I wasn't).

I don't think I'm quite yet at the stage of accepting the irresolvable nature of the disorder, i.e. any relationship is "doomed" (so to speak), and I think that's why I made my post. Thanks for your reply.

[poppy2]

its important to know that what you are describing is not necessarily a "bpd thing".

generally speaking, people with bpd press hard for commitments. require commitment. and over commit, themselves.

Hi Once Removed, as always, thank you for taking the time to reply!

I agree with you about the BPD diagnosis. On the other hand, I am 100% sure my ex had BPD based on things she told me. And I feel the commitment thing is somehow connected to this - what I mean is, one part of her personality was committed/overinvolved, one part of her personality was hyper-defensive, and could never really trust or be vulnerable but rather had to "control" every instance of this. I don't think these two parts of her personality were integrated with one another, like she didn't even seem to be aware of what her hyper-controlling part was doing. For me, this is severe BPD or another kind of Dissocative Disorder (there are multiple traumas in her background).

if this is what your post is related to specifically, there may be two explanations:
...
what do you think?

I feel like she never broke up with me, but just disappeared. I feel like she left the door open because she didn't want things to be over. Then, because I pushed her for resolution (not about the break-up, but about other things), it became a "break-up". I feel like she was unable to face letting me go, but also unable to face what moving forward would mean. So a kind of limbo. I think relationships in her life have followed this pattern for a long time, and that therefore "resolution" for her meant: PLEASE READ, it's happened again. I'll lick my wounds by myself now.

What I think I am struggling with is: If i was victimized by a disorder in which the end was there since the beginning, I can accept it and move on. Or, was there a self-conscious person inside that disorder, trying to make things work with limited resources. I still don't know the answer to this question, and maybe I can never know. But it somehow feels important to me to understand.

[poppy2]

After more than one year my BPDex was unable to keep any commitments, even ones she made.  I allowed her to be in the driver's seat on all of that, and allowed her to have all her time and space needed and still she would intentionally sabotage any plans out of internal fears.  My ex, for people here, was a woman in her late 40s with untreated and likely undiagnosed BPD, so it was an entrenched condition.

She had one foot out the door the whole time.  Only after that full year of me pouring everything from my heart and soul into that relationship did I see her pause a millisecond before she put that foot in the door, but she still did it.  She hated being labeled as "flakey" btw, so I never did it, even if it was true.

I once told her to stop putting me "in a box".  She called me up and left a voice mail about how it was ridiculous for me to say that she was putting me in a box.  Towards the end of the relationship I found her to be right.  It was she that was in the box.   A plexiglass box where I could see her, but never reach her, never really touch her, never really connect on the heart to heart level I so desperately wanted to do.  She would smile at me from inside the box, and slowly walk away to the other corner, to the darkness where she couldn't be found.  It didn't matter if I screamed, and banged on the box.  I couldn't reach her.  Only she had the keys and she wasn't ready to come out.

hey Ad Meliora!

This is such a helpful description, thank you for sharing your description with me. We share a lot of the patterns in terms of both our and the pwBPD's behaviours. In a way, after reading the Lawson book I felt they need very strong boundaries in order also to not fall victim to their worst behaviours, which "encouraged" (I know we weren't meaning to do this, but I think we did) or left unchecked only get worse. What I mean is - if they're given the time and space (I also did this), then things only get worse, their behaviours only become more exaggerated. Everybody needs boundaries but ironically I think they need them much more than others.

Your image of the box is very moving and profound. That's actually a very helpful way of imagining my situation too, as simply unable to "reach" somebody else, no matter what... because even if their hand comes out of the box (my experience), their body is still mostly there. Recently I was asking myself: were there any cracks in the box, I mean, any place for the reality of the outside world/another person to enter?

I don't know. But I think a hope for any sort of relationship has to exist there. I think if I find an answer to that question, it will be another stage of detaching for me. What do you think? from your description it sounds like there weren't any "cracks" to enable interdependence / commitment / reciprocity, but I'd be curious to hear

[Ad Meliora]

I was hoping you might get more feedback here as I'm bouncing back to the "detaching" board.  To answer your question, anytime I saw a possible "crack" in her glass box I ran to it and begged, pleaded, cajoled her to break it further.  All to no avail.  Actually, it made her run back to the dark corners even faster.  Maybe if I would've played it cool  things would've gone better, but I was in love with her--there's no cooling off in the beginning. About 3 months in, while she was 700 miles away, I wrote her this poem as an example.  Anyone other than you, I wouldn't bother sharing.

[BPDex], take a deep dive with me,
jump the sensor*.  Come out into the current,
feel its power, don't just turn around in the shallows,
in the shallows you get the shallows, you're lucky to see 
minnows, let's look for the big fish.
Let me hold you,
like I did in Laughlin
feel weightlessness, float with me under you
take chances, on me, 'cause what you see
is what you get, and you ain't seen nothin yet!'
Beastie Boys sang that.  Mike D is my favorite "boy",
Walk with me, run with me, hold me, but join me,
join me here.  It feels exposed, but you're protected
I promise.  It's not as scary as it seems.
I'm here, I'll hold you.  I'll support you.
This side of love is past the midpoint,
Yes, there you're safe from heartbreak, but you're on the
teeter totter and you can't hold me up, anyway,
that close to the fulcrum.  So come to my side and the 
teeter tottering will disappear and dissolve
it's not safe, but it is complete, it is real, it is genuine.
We all think we have time. Do we?
Where is this time?  Can you hold it, manipulate it,
guarantee it?  Life has no guarantees.
Love is timeless.  It's real.
It lasts forever.  Even if people don't.

(*"Sensor" is the garage door sensor, she didn't understand one day when I ran out through the garage door and not go around the back pass door.  I told her I'd "jump the sensor", she told me I was stupid.  The next day she called me to tell me she 'jumped the sensor', as if I should be proud.  She was such a child. The minnows part was what she came up with when I asked what do you see yourself doing in an ideal future.  She said, "sitting on a dock on a lake watching minnows.")

[poppy2]

Hi Ad Meliora,

Thanks for sharing this poem. I can really relate to the energy of it, in which you are inviting her to share in passion and companionship with you. I also wrote my ex something similar at one point, although I never sent it to her as by then she had broken off contact with me.

I see your work and mine as a kind of invitation towards "what would be possible" ... but, at least in my case, my ex never would never taken my word or believed in these things as possible. I think she had her narrative of "love will never work out" (unbeknownst to me) and that narrative drove her, regardless of what I felt, thought, said, or done. It's in that sense that I really feel victimized by the illness, but it could also eventually be freeing to think - there is nothing I could have done, even though I tried very hard. It's the part of BPD which I think is very tragic, but also very insulting/objectifying: how the actions or words of the non can really make no difference. I think she was stuck in her "script" and as long as I no longer played a sympathetic or even recognizable part in that script, I was yesterday's news.

It's sad. I think anybody else would have been lucky to have received a poem like this from you, which has its arms broadly open. Her distance also made me "work harder" and this is just so tricky to understand, because when they begin to withdraw it seems so incomprehensible based on how open they were previously. It made very afraid, actually, but my attempts to get closer only trapped me further inside a push-pull dynamic that I really never want to be in again. Very hard, to let somebody go if they are not ready for love if you love them     

[once removed]

what I mean is, one part of her personality was committed/overinvolved, one part of her personality was hyper-defensive, and could never really trust or be vulnerable but rather had to "control" every instance of this.

makes sense. do you think she had any OCD traits?

I feel like she never broke up with me, but just disappeared. I feel like she left the door open because she didn't want things to be over. Then, because I pushed her for resolution (not about the break-up, but about other things), it became a "break-up".

that makes sense as well. sometimes people have second thoughts or doubts. sometimes people just have difficulty pushing that button, pulling the lever, so to speak. not to give a pass for taking the easier way out, but breaking up is hard to do. ive never been able to do it, myself. i still remember pieces of my breakup conversation (my ex broke up with me) and i walked away from it pretty unsure of whether or not we were totally broken up. in hindsight, she was trying to break up with me, but had difficulty when pressed.

What I think I am struggling with is: If i was victimized by a disorder in which the end was there since the beginning, I can accept it and move on. Or, was there a self-conscious person inside that disorder, trying to make things work with limited resources. I still don't know the answer to this question, and maybe I can never know. But it somehow feels important to me to understand.

i dont mean this or ask it flippantly: whats the difference?

a disorder, or disordered traits dont mean doom for a relationship, necessarily, or this board wouldnt exist and neither would the decades long marriages. every person with a disorder is self conscious, to varying degrees, of course. is it possible that while bpd played a role, the two of you werent meant to be?

[poppy2]

makes sense. do you think she had any OCD traits?

Hi once removed,

Thanks as ever for taking the time to reply and share your knowledge. I've had a serious think about it.

I believe she had many things. She was OCD, yes, in terms of cleaning and washing, and other things too.
While we were together she had to undergo a major and very painful operation and refused anaesthetic so as not to be under somebody else's control... so the operation had to be done in two rounds, as her consciousness otherwise couldn't take it. Can you imagine that?
She often didn't feel pain until it was very bad, didn't eat food because she forgot to (sometimes all day), and had been hospitalized in the past. Overall I would say she was dealing well with her life (except for relationship and friendship issues) and her controlling/OCD nature actually helped in her employment. 

i dont mean this or ask it flippantly: whats the difference?

a disorder, or disordered traits dont mean doom for a relationship, necessarily, or this board wouldnt exist and neither would the decades long marriages. every person with a disorder is self conscious, to varying degrees, of course. is it possible that while bpd played a role, the two of you werent meant to be?

I appreciate your sort of "balanced" view on relationships and their endings a lot. I will try and put my issue as assertively as possible using I-statements:

I feel I never got a chance to say whether I wanted this relationship to continue or not, in any form. I feel that if I could look at her with all the things I know now, I could really decide if a relationship between us was even possible or if it was doomed unless I became a conscious caretaker (a choice I probably wouldn't make). I feel like her BPD was always there but only "manifested" in the very last week, when she out of the blue devalued our time since the beginning and then left. Obvs this had already been going on in her head for a long time.

I feel like I want to look in this person's face and really see if they are defined by their disorder, a bunch of defensive mechanisms, or whether there is actually a person in there making choices and not just being an unconscious victim. I know that this probably will never happen but it is what would really represent closure for me.

If i had to guess, I feel the "person" i saw in her several times, when I set firm boundaries, was a very wounded, very incapable/ashamed, very young child... and this "child" also communicated with me several times after she left me in various, "i cant lose you" sort of ways. BPD is a really debilitating thing to have or to be exposed to.

When I turn the lens on myself, I think it means: could I have done anything differently?She is responsible for her own decisions, but I also know I had many resources to deal with problems and that there were still things we could have learnt from one another. So there is sadness there, too. My hope that things can be "otherwise" is a good, determined skill to have in life but is pointless to apply to BPD, so I don't want this sadness to trap me. That's why it matters.

[poppy2]

sorry small PS: For the record, I wouldn't feel safe to be alone in a room with my ex anymore. So this is really "me" processing things.