Thinking of Separating from uBPDh

[Bertha88]

Hi, This is my first post on this board.  My prior posts were all in "Bettering a Relationship or Reversing a Breakup."  That's a significant shift for me.

I'm in a difficult, sad, lonely place right now, feeling like my 25-year marriage and relationship with uBPDh cannot be saved.  I've tried a lot.  I haven't tried enough of the tools and so forth (honestly), but have this internal screaming sense that, because of the amount of control and abuse that my partner doles out, and because of his complete denial and unwillingness to look inward, the jig is up, so to speak.

COVID, namely our experiences while sick, but also all the prior disagreements and ridiculous positions taken, brought me to the brink.  I'm pro-vaccine, pro-science, and he's waaaaay at the other extreme.  To put it succinctly, he got sick, tested positive, insisted it was a "false positive," and went about his business unmasked, going to large big box stores while clearly sniffly and contagious.  I was sickened by the sheer lack of consideration he had for others:  that was egregious, socially irresponsible behavior in my book.  I canNOT respect someone who behaves that way.  I'm "over" trying so hard to live with a person whose values are not anywhere near mine, and with whom I canNOT have a conversation.  It's always him telling me why my thoughts/feelings/actions/choices are wrong (no matter what the topic), and him telling me the "right" way I should think/feel/act/live.  I'm over it.

Also with COVID, I had a break-through infection that was frightening in its intensity (burning and painful lungs for 3 weeks) and duration.  He was not nurturing, not supportive, in the least.  "Are you sick?... because if you are, I'm going to have to cancel those reservations!"  "You don't sound very sick."  etc., etc.  It was like his opinion about the COVID "hoax" trumped (no pun intended) his responsibility to care for me, his spouse, at a scary time.  As far as his illness, he denied symptoms and became impatient when I inquired as to the progression of them.

Sorry to verge on the political here.  The point is (and I knew this already about him), he only cares about me inasmuch as I can meet his needs.  I exist to serve him.  (Forget about empathy.  Welcome to BPD!)

Having just turned 60, I'm interested in having a more authentic and vibrant life.  I don't want to "donate" my remaining years to rescuing/saving/propping up a person who is sick, denies it, and wants to dominate and control me in all things.

Right now, we are still under the same roof, difficult to say the least. I am bolstering myself emotionally to leave (somehow), but am stepping carefully through it because we have a complex set of shared finances.  What I've allowed staggers even me as I contemplate it.  We have joint accounts, and I can't even sign in b/c he controls it all and is reluctant to share passwords.  He'll do it eventually with complaints, but obviously this situation is not reasonable.  We support charities I don't believe in, and I don't contribute to charities I do believe in--all because I've been "walking on eggshells" so long.  It's an absurd situation.

I spent time recently with my family of origin and oldest child, all of whom agree it's time I moved on.  I do NOT take this lightly in any sense.  It's heart-breaking to me and very scary, because I feel like he's going to fall apart if/when I tell him I want to separate.  Also, I know I will face much emotionally if we separate--no quick fixes at all.  I have much inner work to do.

I can't bring myself to say I want a divorce, but I know these 2 things:  1) I want and deserve some financial autonomy (I contribute to our joint income, but have surrendered all my power on its distribution:  ridiculous!); 2) I want to get away from him (the controlling, manipulative, manic, drunken interactions).

I've been cold toward him, trying to maintain authenticity.  Of course, this is wrenching for him.  This past week I've received love notes and flowers and plaintive requests to hug him, to "act as if," lectures about the "vows" I took (I'm very much aware of them!)... today he told me I'm normally a kind person (I am), and this is "out of character."  It's so very sad to me.

Honestly, I'm holding out to get the finances more accessible.  We are supposed to be meeting this Saturday to enter the various accounts and passwords into a spreadsheet for my use.  I think I'm afraid that if I announce I want to separate from him, he'll go crazy with the finances or burn up all my possessions.  Those two things, and an old dog, are what are keeping me here right now.  And the fear, the very real fear, and sadness.  But he keeps showing me, even in "normal" situations, that his MO is to control and abuse.  He knows no other way.  And I've been disingenuous for SO long.  HE DOES NOT DESERVE THAT, let alone: I DO NOT DESERVE WHAT HE DISHES OUT!  I don't think he knows what "love" really looks like.  He talks a good game, but why have I been hurting non-stop for 25 years?  This ain't love.  I can see it in other people, but we do not have a loving relationship.  Yet, both of us have hung onto this thing like it was unthinkable to dissolve it.  As I posted above, I believe COVID tipped the scales on that for me.

So, thoughts?  What to do first?  I have talked with a lawyer, free consultation thing.  My thought is to get the finances and possessions in order to a point where I can honestly tell him that I think we need a separation.  I need to find alternative housing (ugh! $$$) and establish my own bank account.

I'm working on letting go of the bad hooks which keep me in this relationship:  What will people think?  I'm going to hurt them so much!  They will be so angry at me!  What will become of him?  I'm going to cause him so much pain!

The reality is, what we are doing and have been doing for years is more destructive than a break-up, my gut tells me.  As devastating as a separation might be, we seem to be stuck in something very toxic and sad, and we need to make room for new growth and hope.

If I sound angry and on-edge, it's because I am.  I feel so vulnerable to being sucked back into that vortex of BPD insanity, his AND mine.  I've tried to "take the high road," "love selflessly," "act as if," "forgive," ... you name it, I feel like I've tried it.  What I haven't done NEARLY ENOUGH of?  Honoring myself.  And right now, without my own space literally and figuratively, I'm feeling very protective of this fragile awareness that there is life and health on the other side of a change here.

[Bertha88]

Something came in today to my Email.  It was a letter from a former counselor/religious leader.  He's a wonderful, learned man, but throughout our couples' counseling did not give credence to BPD or secular diagnoses in general; instead, he wanted to make everything a spiritual matter, with a spiritual solution.  I found this unsatisfactory, because ultimately it dismissed the prospect of BPD, treatment, etc.  -- the "elephant in the room," if you will.

I'm deeply troubled by his Email.  Not surprised, but saddened, because it's more of the same:  essentially a denial that there is a mental illness at play, and a dead-end as far as my power/choice to determine how much I'm willing to take.  This is the "vortex" I so fear being sucked into.  You see, I MUST escape this toxic situation.  When I contemplate my own role (which I admit is significant--caretaker, poor boundaries, accepting the unacceptable, amoeba-like identity... the "perfect storm" for my controlling/dominating uBPDh), I am not sure at all that I can "heal" while still in this toxic environment.  I need room and space to "breathe," away from all the shoulds and demands and criticism.  And perhaps he does, too.

The Email said that we are BOTH blaming the other, BOTH are at fault, and we are not letting the spiritual solution flow through.  He used Christian terminology, but to put it generically, our Higher Power should be able to heal us, if we just humble ourselves and submit to its Power.  This, I've tried.  What I cannot master is stomaching/tolerating/accepting without hostility the ongoing controlling, dominating, selfish behavior of my uBPDh, who shows no intention nor capacity to look inward.  He's replete with religious "shoulds," says he loves me (none of his treatment feels loving to me), reminds me of our vows, all that... but it rings hollow in the day-to-day.  I live in an emotional war zone, I believe largely as a result of the BPD traits he exhibits and my inability to care for myself under what feels like constant assault.

Here is what I posted earlier this year on this "vortex"--the word I use to describe the place I get sucked into, which keeps me stuck from reaching for health and happiness, or minimally, standing up for  myself, claiming my dignity, etc.:

"I'd like to discuss some of the reasons I'm still in this 25-year marriage with a person who has consistently abused me emotionally and I believe is uBPD.   I'd like to know if others can relate to some of my reasons.

Our children have just reached adulthood and I've been working from home for 15 months.  These may be factors which are prompting this intense review on my part, this desire for an honest appraisal of my choices/my life.  Thus, right now, I'm in this "fact-finding" mode, kind of betwixt-and-between, knowing I can survive without him, but wondering (knowing?) I'm part of the problem because I let him do this stuff to me--yet not at all sure there is a viable alternative to leaving.  For example, if I change my behavior (using boundaries, validation, etc.), would he eventually be able to adapt?  And can I survive the initial backlash?  I do know this:  I don't want what's happening now to be perpetuated for the rest of my life.  And the change begins with me, I know that also.

I have called him out on emotional abuse (years ago:  he laughed and denied).  I've (perhaps mistakenly) told him I think he has BPD (he denies and says I'll do anything that "fits my narrative"). It grates on me when he uses words like that because they ring hollow to me given his level of emotional maturity.  I've called the police (1x) and sent him to jail: he pushed me down and before I knew it, "911."  That was pretty much the beginning and the end of anything physical, but he claimed I "stripped his [abusive] authority" with our children that night.  I know better.  I did the right thing.

I don't know where my marriage is going, but my staying has been a combination of these things:
*Fear
*"What will 'they' think?"
*"I promised"
*"He can't help it"
"Aren't I great that I can put up with all this?"

... and also that (this one JUST hit me) the stakes likely seem much higher because I married into a very conservative Christian culture in which divorce is highly discouraged and viewed as a complete devastation... at least that is how I perceive the "stakes," as in, the impact on his extended family, people in our church & community, etc.--the "they" in "What will THEY think?"  The whole prospect of divorcing is terrifying to me... and not because I'm without income (I have a good job), nor am I incapable of taking care of myself.  It's more the failure aspect, the hurt, etc."

... So, receiving the Email today, though well-intentioned from one of the "they" in "What will THEY think?", confirms there's a segment of people out there who will crucify me if I make a stand for myself that involves separation or divorce, on moral grounds.  I get it, that's why I'm still here after 25 years:  that, and my own thoughts and feelings about love, fairness, my role, etc.  I've done tons of soul-searching.  But it's led me now to a place where I'm entertaining the prospect of bravely confronting those "shoulds," those messages that tell me that sacrificing myself is the noble road.

And yes, there are tools to use, and there's much I can do to try to be "me," to stretch the boundaries of my power with this person... but I am TIRED.  Really TIRED.  I don't know if I have it in me.

[Gemsforeyes]

Dear Bertha-

I am deeply sorry for the position you find yourself in, and deeply sorry for the pain and abuse you’ve endured over the last 25 years.  I believe you’ve done the absolute best you could given the circumstances.  None of us were blessed or born with the skills to handle partners like these. 

I personally left a 19-year marriage when my ex-H threw me across the room (BPD/NPD) and then entered into another 6.5-year relationship that I ended in 2/2020.  I didn’t learn about any of these disorders until 2017, and no level of tool usage made any difference in the long run.  My exBPD/NPDbf and I are both early 60’s.  I had to walk away to survive.  Enough about me.

Although I’m sure your H’s toxic behaviors over the years probably escalated many times to the point where you were begging for the strength to leave, I can definitely see how his behavior around COVID would be the last straw.  That was a hard read and I’m so very sorry you had to experience that.  And Bertha, you DON’T have to continue to live like this.  You don’t. 

There does come a time (like now and forever) where “they” don’t matter.  “They” do not live your life.  “They” do not know what happens when their eyes are not watching what your H does to you.  “They” can preach all they wish.  But apparently “they” have NOT listened to you.  So sure, there is GOD, there are churches and there is also free will.  Your H seems to have pursued his vision of free will to control and overpower you in every way possible.  That is not Godly behavior.  And THEY have no business sending you emails inserting themselves into the pain of your life and ignoring real-life solutions.

You can join a new church with more loving and open-hearted individuals.  You can. 

You have done an enormous amount of introspection.  I, like you, came to the conclusion that I could NOT heal (emotionally or physically) while I was being subjected to constant abuse.  And you deserve autonomy over the one life you were given.

Your H may buy flowers, write a periodic “love note”, ask for a token hug, but so what?  It’s all self-serving.  In a half hour, he’ll be back to it.  And what about HIS vows to love, honor and cherish?  Those were only words.  Like everything else to him.  Words that once they leave his mouth fall to the floor and scatter.

I don’t know.  I’m not being very supportive (but I am).  I’m sorry, but I’m angry.  At your H and at that church.  You deserve an ally.  A million allies.  I KNOW you’ve tried so hard.

The most difficult part is the first step.  You CAN walk into the bank with your ID and find out what is in those joint accounts.  You don’t need permission from your H.  Speak further to an attorney familiar with high conflict divorces.  And consider letting your H stand or fall on his own.  Sometimes we’ve done enough to hold them up.  In my two cases, they both survived just fine.

I hope I wasn’t too harsh.  I don’t intend to be.  I have a LOT of faith in you.  I just feel it.

I hope you’re fully healed from the virus.  Sending you hugs. 

Warmly,
Gemsforeyes

[Bertha88]

Thank you, GemsforEyes, I was just walking up to check my computer and saying how isolated I feel, to the point of having these flickers of thoughts that, "Oh, well, just give into it."  Been there 1,000 times before, more like 10,000 or 20,000 or 1,000,000.

And though you did sound harsh (me too), you're just understanding my pain and I feel that (TY). I think you are right that he'll be right back at it, in fact I KNOW you are right, without some major epiphany/miracle that enables him to get some window into his darkness.  We have 3 grown children and all are supportive of me, as we have all dealt with the craziness and hurt all our lives.  I gave my all for them and I think they are most wonderful people, and they have my back.

I'm crying.  Walking this road is excrutiating, and excrutiatingly lonely.  It's why I've always shrunk back at some point, and why I could not sleep when at my folks' in TN (I live in MI), thinking about what I would be returning to, this emotional no-man's-land.

Thank you, from the bottom of my heart, for your post.  Other posts and opinions are certainly welcome.  I am not without fault here, just out of steam (to put it mildly), and out of hope--except for a different kind of life for myself where I can breathe.

To be fair to my counselor friend (and I'm angry too, at the church, at him, b/c they don't do s*** to help people like me, they just gloss over it and preach forgiveness [but let the abuse continue?]):  We had a conversation months ago and he expressed disappointment at my uBPDh (we were in a searching Bible study, and uBPDh wasn't being very honest) and my friend even went as far as to say that there are cases where a separation will bring about a change in someone, like the "tough love" we all hear about.  I'm not interested in a "change" that means I have to stay with this person at this point.  A miracle?  Sure!  But not hopeful for a healthier relationship, given the present parties (myself included).

Thanks again.

[ForeverDad]

I come from a life background of nearly two decades in religious service.  Then I married and she joined me for the first years of our marriage.  It started well but after a decade — and the birth of our child — behavioral issues surged and took over.

At first my "marital discord" was approached as my responsibility to address the marriage's increasing issues.  I stepped down from being an elder to care for my family.  Later, though, it became clear I was dealing with serious issues of imbalanced mental perceptions overruling facts.  I recall one time I was seeking the pediatrician's input for our preschooler.  When he offered to recommend a therapist, my spouse replied, "I have the Bible!"  Sadly, she wasn't applying its counsel.

You husbands, in the same way, continue dwelling with wives according to knowledge.  Assign them honor as to a weaker vessel, the feminine one, since they are also heirs with you of the undeserved favor of life, in order for your prayers not to be hindered. — 1 Peter 3:7

It says there that if not followed then husbands' prayers would be hindered.  It doesn't say the wives would share responsibility for not receiving honor.

In my case, we did dwell together... until my health, my safety and my parenting were at risk.  For years I had already tried without success.  Other elders knew it was my marriage and my decision to make, no one told me to keep trying endlessly.  No one presumed to claim all issues would be resolved by trying endlessly.

Separation or divorce are to be avoided of course, they are not to be considered lightly, but as many here have experienced, sometimes reality intercedes and there are no other options left.

[Bertha88]

Thank you so much, Forever Dad.  I appreciate your perspective immensely.  The Bible verse confuses me a little, but it sounds as if it's saying, akin to "Husbands, love your wives as yourself," that a husband who doesn't honor his wife has his prayers hindered.  Is that what you are getting out of it?  And is the first line an admonition not to dwell "with wives according to knowledge?"  Meaning, without spiritual intent, things become corrupted/twisted?

I too am guilty of selfishness, etc.  But -- as you know, I can tell -- the disconnect between the "Jesus loves you and so do I" and the complete lack of awareness, let alone penitence; and continued controlling, critical, and verbally abusive behavior, is enormous.  And it hurts.  So I'm in the very uncomfortable place of needing to stand up for myself in spite of late-stage promises and apologies rendered, and in spite of church friends who, I fear, will label me a bad person.

My truth still feels like I have to call this out for what it is.

[ForeverDad]

Typically we don't delve deeply into religious matters here because it can be triggering for some since we have such a diverse membership, however I'll add some positive thoughts...

This is your quoted passage:

In the same way husbands should love their wives as their own bodies. A man who loves his wife loves himself, for no man ever hated his own body, but he feeds and cherishes it... Nevertheless, each one of you must love his wife as he does himself; on the other hand, the wife should have deep respect for her husband. — Ephesians 5:28, 29

Admonition including both men and women:

Let the older men be moderate in habits, serious, sound in mind, healthy in faith, in love, in endurance. Likewise, let the older women be reverent in behavior, not slanderous, not enslaved to a lot of wine, teachers of what is good, so that they may advise the younger women to love their husbands, to love their children, to be sound in mind, chaste, working at home, good, subjecting themselves to their own husbands, so that the word of God may not be spoken of abusively. — Titus 2:2-5

You wives, be in subjection to your husbands, as it is becoming in the Lord. You husbands, keep on loving your wives and do not be bitterly angry with them. You children, be obedient to your parents in everything, for this is well-pleasing to the Lord. You fathers, do not be exasperating your children, so that they do not become downhearted. — Colossians 3:18-21

In short, my point was that while there are times when we can get frustrated by our spouse, rubbed the wrong way, even irritated, overall there should be a spirit or atmosphere of trust, protection and joy.  We're all imperfect so we all experience difficult times now and then but overall life should be positive.

What if your life is not positive but instead quite distressing?  As an adult it is your own personal responsibility to decide your life's path.  Others in your life may advise you, but in the final analysis it is you who decides and chooses.  For example, a local family law attorney (lawyer) may provide you legal advice and practical strategies in family court.  Your trusted friends, family, even congregation, can voice their thoughts and perspectives.  Here in peer support we have a many tools and skills we've learned and made available that are helpful and which strategies are tested by time to be generally successful, not to mention our specific posts in response to your circumstances.

But you decide your life's path.  In times like this, it's not easy.  One approach is to "step outside the box", exchange your subjective perspective for an objective one.  Picture yourself 5 or 10 years in the future.  From that perspective, what would you share with the you of today?

My truth still feels like I have to call this out for what it is.

Sounds like you have part of your answer.

[Bertha88]

In short, my point was that while there are times when we can get frustrated by our spouse, rubbed the wrong way, even irritated, overall there should be a spirit or atmosphere of trust, protection and joy.  We're all imperfect so we all experience difficult times now and then but overall life should be positive.

What if your life is not positive but instead quite distressing? 

I yearn for an atmosphere of trust, protection, and joy.  And, if I'm honest, I would characterize my life as "distressing."  I've wondered a lot over the years how much of our marital tension is "normal" versus "not normal."  (I WISH the only issues we had were minor irritations!)  Lately, I even wonder if I'm capable of a "normal" relationship after so many years of living in a toxic, unreasonable one.

Yesterday, we spent hours in his office discussing finances, etc.  The outcome of the meeting was disappointing in the sense that technicalities (e.g., "authentication codes" which pointed to a land line which no longer exists) prevented me from getting access to our JOINT checking accounts.  He promises to follow up on this during regular business hours and to provide me the access I've requested.  Other goals I had (e.g., getting account numbers, descriptions, and balances for other, investment-type funds) were superseded by a discussion we had about the state of our relationship--the conversation I've been dreading.  I was careful to state my goals as only 1) greater financial autonomy; and 2) freedom from criticism, control, & domination; as opposed to "divorce," "separation," etc.

Bottom line, I got pulled into the "vortex" I spoke of above:  that is, I begin backsliding. When I hear his side of things, I understand some of my role and I see him as more than this evil, abusive, sick BPD.  I see him as a whole person, competent in some domains, yet hurting greatly, and deserving of love. I then begin to think, "Well, maybe... [this could work... somehow]."  It's crazy.  I am planning to spend a bit of quiet time reflecting on that meeting and journaling to see what it was that made me soften.  I need discernment so badly.

This morning we had a blow-out with our 19-year old about money.  My uBPDh had asked him to fill up a propane tank for our grill and given him $10 cash.  When the cost was actually, $23, the 19-year old began asking Dad to make up the difference of $13.  All silly stuff.  I actually agreed with my H that our son wasn't being reasonable, since he lives with us and is currently (temporarily) driving one of our cars, and thus benefits much from us financially.  Our son is working at his first job and watches his finances very carefully.  But then (it never takes long!) uBPDh started in with other hot topics, like how he needs to move out and be more responsible, and it really ticked me off.  I said, "I've gotta get out of here," meaning I wanted to leave the room.  In my mind, uBPDh is very selfish and has pushed all the kids out and yet buys fancy things for himself.  We can't agree of appropriate levels of financial support for our children.  I agree with him about the need for children to be responsible, but I don't think he is reasonable in what he's willing to share.  It seems like he's always trying to collect as much stuff/money/attention as he can for himself.  It really bugs me when it comes to kids.  Our 3 young adult kids all have jobs and are very responsible.  I am very proud of them.

Anyway, it was a trigger for me that he allowed the $13 discussion to morph into a "Why don't you just move out?" to our youngest.  (Really?  You want to push him out that fast?  Why?  He is NOT likely to want to live with us indefinitely--he shows no signs of "failure to launch."  Rather, I think this is an appropriate time for him to get on his feet with a 1st job, car expense & repairs, phone expense, etc.  I'm OK with giving kids a buffer zone to get launched.)

All this said, we all ended up mad at each other, our son probably the least and my H and I at odds again. (I stated that I did not think it was appropriate for him to bring up the moving out issue, and that ticked uBDh off.)  I was reminded that I really can't stand my uBPDh's processing of issues, and I was reminded that, however civil and understandably he presented himself yesterday, he's still unreasonable in his demands of others and in his processing of circumstances.  It's the classic BPD symptom of inability to sustain healthy intimate relationships, which is true in our family for myself and all 3 kids versus my uBPDh.

Sorry to drone on.  Just to say that I will reflect on our conversation yesterday and continue to seek discernment.  Luckily (?), my uBPDh shows his true colors routinely, so I can't keep the rose-colored glasses on indefinitely.  But I do wish for more clarity.

[Gemsforeyes]

Hi Bertha-

I’m sorry, but not at all surprised that your H pushed the gas pedal on your son’s request to collect the  $13 into “time for you to MOVE OUT”.  Not all at surprised. 

The stories I have around money and these disordered partners still raises the hairs on my neck (and my heart rate) when I think of them.  I’m really wondering if money is a *Thing* with pwBPD/NPD?  Just another thing that others “owe” them.  I realize I’m generalizing, but I do have my reasons.

Your thoughts on this?

In addition, it seems to me that you are shouldering way more than your share of the burden (blame) for the pain and issues in your marriage.  I believe you may want to consider releasing yourself from a LOT of this blame... nasty things you did NOT do.  Selfish people KNOW when they’re being selfish.  But it seems it just doesn’t matter to them much of the time, if ever.

My friend, I was so afraid to face the facts that what was happening in both my LT marriage and with my exBF were actually happening. That these men, who professed to “love” me actually treated me the way they did.  I was NEVER one to throw in the towel.  And I blamed myself for years (still do sometimes). 

It’s only during quiet times when I DO hold them accountable for their actions that I can clearly see what took place.  And I begin to forgive myself.

Warmly,
Gems

[Bertha88]

Hi Bertha-

I’m sorry, but not at all surprised that your H pushed the gas pedal on your son’s request to collect the  $13 into “time for you to MOVE OUT”.  Not all at surprised. 

The stories I have around money and these disordered partners still raises the hairs on my neck (and my heart rate) when I think of them.  I’m really wondering if money is a *Thing* with pwBPD/NPD?  Just another thing that others “owe” them.  I realize I’m generalizing, but I do have my reasons.

Your thoughts on this?

Thank you, Gemsforeyes, once again, for your support.

Yes, I think you may be on to something with the money issue.  The money thing is crazy with him.  It's like he sniffs it out all the time.  To boot, he is a financial planner, which complicates matters immensely.  He's "successful" in obtaining clients and assets under management, and I believe he's competent in many aspects of his job (excluding running an office, which I believe is hindered by executive thinking and social limitations [e.g., needs help but has been through 10+ assistants over the years, none of whom worked out or were "right"--WONDER WHY?]).

When it comes to kids, it translates into enormous pressures on our children which I think are unnecessary and undeserved.  A more moderate, empathetic approach is needed to teach them responsible skills while at the same time supporting them in a reasonable fashion financially.  He disagrees, behaving in a miserly fashion typically, with sometimes splashes of generosity--I think, sadly, in an attempt to buy their love.  Christmas has always been a nightmare.  I enjoy giving our children things they want (within reason, e.g., $300 budget for each? - not crazily extravagant in my mind), but he's more inclined to say, "They have everything they need," and fight me on the wish list and then go buy them random stuff he picks out at a big box store which isn't what they really want.  Control, control, control.

I appreciate you and others for walking through this with me.

I'm betwixt and between, for sure.  The vision of life without him appears desirable in many ways, yet getting there seems such a daunting process.  One thing I can count on, he will continue to be himself and that means, disordered thinking (I like that description) will continue to be presented.  All for me to live with and decide:  "Is this what I want, forever?"

I wish I had the support of people on this board in the flesh--meaning, wish we could go for coffee or whatever.  I LOVE this board:  it's the best resource I have, bar none, yet this agonizing decision about my marriage is still very lonely.  I just have to stay strong in my convictions--but if I'm honest, those are mushy right now--mushier than they were a week ago.  This is why I'm terrified of slipping into an "acceptance" mode again, because THAT'S WHAT I DO.

Yet I'm still giving credence to his description of his experience, his woundedness, and I find it almost impossible to maintain clarity and to maintain an unsympathetic stance.  In other words, my boundaries collapse.

He tells me I'm "crushing" him right now emotionally.  I believe that is true.  Not what I want to do to anyone.

For a while with COVID I was perfectly happy in a separate bedroom (sex is a whole other story, again one without surprises, which could be summarized for me by quoting someone on this board:  "You can't be intimate without trust.")  So he begged me to come back into our bed, promised:  "I won't bother you," and I did it:  why?  Too hard to tow the line, plus I couldn't say really why I wanted to sleep apart except "I want to be authentic, and I'm feeling angry and not particularly loving toward you."  So now, there is pressure to be intimate, pressure I'm resisting b/c I'm not interested and not trusting, and I'm pursuing authenticity... but the whole thing is absurd, trying to live under the same roof, still married, with no physical dimension.  And then there are all the lurking church "rules" that make it tough to do anything unconventional, even if it makes sense.  (You are SUPPOSED to sleep together; you are SUPPOSED to comingle finances; etc.  "The two become one.")

Again, droning on.  This feels to me like a no-man's-land we're in, not a permanent situation, but one waiting for me to decide whether I can love this person and stay (and for the life of me, I don't know where those feelings would come from!); or move on.  Meanwhile, sorting out the finances and the possessions while our home is in the midst of a major remodel.

Thank you for the support.  Thank you for listening.

[Bertha88]

Just a quick note to add to my previous post:  the "pressure" for physical intimacy is more of an emotional one.  I'm not being forced to participate in sex.  He is listening to me say "No," and complies with that, but also tells me he's crying himself to sleep every night.  I'm sure he is.

It's kind of strange why he would want to be with someone who is as ambivalent toward him as I am.  (Lately, I feel downright hostile at times, but mostly just disappointed and angry and turned off toward him as a person.)  Another symptom of the disorder, I suppose.  So sad.  This person has something that causes them so much pain, yet that pain resides so deeply, it's inaccessible.  What an awful dilemma for him, and for all who care about him.  And that, I think, I can say:  I do care.  I just can't fix it.

[At Bay]

Hello, I was in your shoes at one time and had a choice to make that you describe. Life was so busy and I was still working, combined with my widowed Dad having health problems. Then my and dbpdh’s son married and I cared for a granddaughter until she was 2-1/2, having retired when my husband did at 56. This time passed so quickly and I helped a lot of people, but not myself, and now I look back and see much time spent being unhappy. I had therapy 4 yrs; him. 10 yrs. I put my energy into being as happy as I could under the circumstances. Everyone else took good care of themselves!

H began a new career as a financial advisor, and when you said your husband had administrative problems, I could imagine some of it. H could never be wrong, and I think your h wouldn’t keep his word to his son about the money he was owed, for that reason. Any mistake didn’t happen.

When all my attention was on h between holidays, family birthdays, illnesses. our child’s wedding and the birth of grandchildren, he could be decent. Those life passages were a different story.

I did see a lawyer and learned the state would dictate what was fair, but I stayed. I have a cousin and an old school friend who divorced their husbands when the kids were approaching adulthood. One says it is hard either way and the other one says being left alone is what she wants. Her son was very glad she made changes and improved her day-to-day life, but even changes we decide will be good are something to get through.

You are lucky to have a support system while you weigh your options. I waited too long to stop and say I’m not happy, and now h and I are so old we depend upon one another. He’s my driver due to back problems and aging, and I’m uncertain what I am to him except mostly helping him fool people and make the nice impression he wants to make.

[Bertha88]

Hello, I was in your shoes at one time and had a choice to make that you describe. Life was so busy and I was still working, combined with my widowed Dad having health problems. Then my and dbpdh’s son married and I cared for a granddaughter until she was 2-1/2, having retired when my husband did at 56. This time passed so quickly and I helped a lot of people, but not myself, and now I look back and see much time spent being unhappy. I had therapy 4 yrs; him. 10 yrs. I put my energy into being as happy as I could under the circumstances. Everyone else took good care of themselves!

Dear At Bay,

Thank you so much for your post.  So much of it rings true for me, and you've outlined the fuzziness of these choices so well:  regrets about undue self-sacrifice, your divorced friends and their varied points of view, and your decision to stay, with its positives and negatives.

Your first paragraph so clearly shows how busy-ness plays a role in our staying/putting up with their disordered behavior.  I was a F/T employee and busy mom for so many years.  I loved being a mom (mostly--it was an incredible amount of work, but so rewarding), and I didn't miss much of our kids' activities (sports, concerts, plays, prom, field trips, etc.).  It was a wild ride and brought me much joy.  uBPDh, on the other hand, as you so well described, was out of sorts when my attention wasn't on him.  So I tried to please, knowing sometimes I'd just have to endure his angry/hostile/hurt behavior, which I knew was neither normal nor reasonable, as a consequence of putting the kids first at that special stage of all of our lives.  There were many times I observed other dads who seemed to genuinely enjoy participating in their kids' lives, but not so much my uBPDh.  I mean, he showed up for things, and there were exceptions where he really enjoyed them, but for the most part if it wasn't benefitting him directly or if it wasn't his idea, he was "put out" at having to participate.

Right now I'm in this weird place (the place I call the "vortex" that I wrote about in recent posts, like I'm being sucked back into the center of the storm and I'm accepting this as where I'll be).  I'm just weighing my options, as you said.  My H has been much nicer and is giving me space, which I really think is something I've wanted all along.  I don't think for a minute he won't return to his crazies, though.  It's just an odd time, trying on new behaviors (and possibly slipping back into the old, day by day--yikes!).

I have  doubts about my own ability to be in an intimate relationship due to the way my parents (married now 65 years) related to one another.  Like H & me, they lacked intimacy, but there was never overt hostility, and I think they have a lot more in common than my H & me.  I mean, now--at 87 & 90--they are friends/companions, but when I was growing up my Dad was a very successful and well-known man in the community and my mom was an introverted and somewhat unhappy person. Yet they seemed to have this unspoken agreement:  "You do your thing, and I'll do mine."  So, not real intimate, but also not contentious; rather agreeable, in fact.

All this to say, I wonder how much of our problems are due to my desire for independence and, perhaps, selfishness--based on what I lived in my family of origin, i.e., husband and wife giving each other lots of space, but at the expense of true intimacy.  Of course, living with an uBPDh has required that I look deeply at that and "act as if," for years and years and years, if that makes any sense. My uBPDh is very demanding of my time and attention.  I know I'm deficient in expressing affection, for example--there was love in a sense in my home of origin, but it wasn't demonstrated much physically or verbally--so I've really worked at "showing up" for him and trying to listen, show affection, etc., when I really didn't feel like it.  That's one reason now that I'm insisting on some space, b/c I'm trying to honor myself by being authentic--and that means, if I don't feel like getting in the hot tub with you (not really my thing; his), I'm not going to...  That is just one example, but those daily choices to "be with" and share activities has been a stressor because he thinks I've always got to be there for him, yet I don't enjoy much of what he does.  Another example:  we have an inexpensive fishing boat and he likes to be on the water.  I can take it or leave it, plus I'm a bit scared of something bad happening--partly due to my fearful nature and partly due to his idiotic ways, like drinking and driving the boat, or taking us all out as a newbie and having the boat stall with 3 little kids in it... For me those memories are traumatic and to this day I resent his risky behavior and the danger he put us all in.  His take on it?  "It all turned out fine, didn't it?"  Grrrrr!

Anyway, I understand your staying.  My future is unclear.  My heart goes out to you when you say:  "I'm uncertain what I am to him..."  I suspect it's more than you realize, but I feel your pain and regret.

Please keep in touch, and thanks again for your post and support.