Enmeshment

[Before you can make things better, you have to stop making them worse...]

My ex-wife has BPD traits and we have two daughters together (divorced 8 years ago) which are 10 and 13 today.

My 13 year old is a very rational kid, and is a bit reserved, but very in tune with others, fairness and right and wrong. She's sort of developed a shell around her mother, and my view of her life is that she's just counting down the days till she's 18 and can go live on her own and get away from the chaos.

My 10 year old, I'm a bit worried about, and the reason for this post. Hoping to get some perspective or advice. She's an emotional child, and she has a complex medical history. She's doing very well these days (hasn't had an overnight stay in the hospital in 5 years!), but she was born with a congenital heart defect and spent about 8 months of her first three years of life in the ICU - multiple open heart surgeries. Both her mother and I have been there with her for every hospital visit, but even back to 10 years ago I recognized (before the BDP association with my ex) that my ex was seemingly happy (maybe energized is a better word), or capitalizing on her daughters situation. Every fall, like clockwork, at the start of a new school year, there is some emergency where my ex has to take our daughter out of school (after a flurry of e-mails to teachers, and staff) to a hospital visit. I attend, talk to doctors, get to the bottom of what's going on, and realize it's a routine visit, or a non-emergency that has been presented as one, from my ex. She's used doctors visits and made small conditions seem larger than they are, to try and block our family vacations in the past (lots of subtle but very pointed and manipulative behavior there using my daughters medical situation as a chaos vehicle, when the world is upsetting her).

It's a little bit like chicken little. But I continue to take every one of these seriously and do what I can to support my daughter and get to the bottom of things with doctors.

My ex has a very odd relationship with her own mother, where she treats her really badly, but there seem to be no boundaries. Her mother would visit unannounced (she gave her a key to our house), and would use money to try to manipulate our dynamics as a family, while always shielding her daughter (my ex) from any accountability or responsibility when things come to light. I think a lot of this dynamic shaped how my ex seems to react to the world like a 5 year old. Unable to handle conflict, and seemingly unable to form real bonds with people, without always resorting to this power struggle where she comfort zone is when there are things wrong and people are feeling sorry for her. Back to the point about my 10 year old, with the medical condition.

I think the dynamic between my daughter and her mother is forming similarly. My daughter often times finds it difficult to express how she feels about something, without first trying to understand how I feel about it, or her mother. She also seems to have this Jekyll and Hyde thing going on where she will become very concerned if a situation or conversation involving her mother comes up. Like she must find out what her mom thinks and agree, or else she'll "get in big trouble" as she puts it. I noticed a very unusual dynamic state to occur once I got remarried, and I think the threat of my wife (a very strong, independent woman, great role model for my daughters in my mind) caused my ex to really dig in with emotional control of my 10 year old. I could keep writing for a long time about all of those dynamics, but I'll get to the questions I have.

It appears my daughter is enmeshed with my ex (her mother)... what if any resources are available for this age to help? So far, I've simply taken an approach of "you're getting two perspectives on life, neither is right, neither is wrong, but you'll be an adult one day and you'll get to be your own person with your own choices. I hope you pick what works best for you." kind of mentality. This works phenomenally well with my 13 year old, but I think my 10 year old is driven by her emotions, and sort of wrapped up in her mothers world. The rebellious teenage years are coming, and I suspect a lot of growing, but I know the rules and control will tighten in response from the other house. How do I effectively co-parent (parallel parent, rather) to help my daughter in this situation? I constantly feel like my daughter is comparing the homes and how different it is at my house. "I can be who I am" says the 13 year old... the 10 year old doesn't seem to have this same mindset. I think she feels lost, when she's with me. Like she's missing her mom-half. I wish I could help her to become a more independent young lady... love her mom, but go out into the world and be herself. She seems to be really stunted in that part of life. Any tips/advice is greatly appreciated!

[Thomas0311]

My ex-wife has BPD traits and we have two daughters together (divorced 8 years ago) which are 10 and 13 today.

My 13 year old is a very rational kid, and is a bit reserved, but very in tune with others, fairness and right and wrong. She's sort of developed a shell around her mother, and my view of her life is that she's just counting down the days till she's 18 and can go live on her own and get away from the chaos.

My 10 year old, I'm a bit worried about, and the reason for this post. Hoping to get some perspective or advice. She's an emotional child, and she has a complex medical history. She's doing very well these days (hasn't had an overnight stay in the hospital in 5 years!), but she was born with a congenital heart defect and spent about 8 months of her first three years of life in the ICU - multiple open heart surgeries. Both her mother and I have been there with her for every hospital visit, but even back to 10 years ago I recognized (before the BDP association with my ex) that my ex was seemingly happy (maybe energized is a better word), or capitalizing on her daughters situation. Every fall, like clockwork, at the start of a new school year, there is some emergency where my ex has to take our daughter out of school (after a flurry of e-mails to teachers, and staff) to a hospital visit. I attend, talk to doctors, get to the bottom of what's going on, and realize it's a routine visit, or a non-emergency that has been presented as one, from my ex. She's used doctors visits and made small conditions seem larger than they are, to try and block our family vacations in the past (lots of subtle but very pointed and manipulative behavior there using my daughters medical situation as a chaos vehicle, when the world is upsetting her).

It's a little bit like chicken little. But I continue to take every one of these seriously and do what I can to support my daughter and get to the bottom of things with doctors.

My ex has a very odd relationship with her own mother, where she treats her really badly, but there seem to be no boundaries. Her mother would visit unannounced (she gave her a key to our house), and would use money to try to manipulate our dynamics as a family, while always shielding her daughter (my ex) from any accountability or responsibility when things come to light. I think a lot of this dynamic shaped how my ex seems to react to the world like a 5 year old. Unable to handle conflict, and seemingly unable to form real bonds with people, without always resorting to this power struggle where she comfort zone is when there are things wrong and people are feeling sorry for her. Back to the point about my 10 year old, with the medical condition.

I think the dynamic between my daughter and her mother is forming similarly. My daughter often times finds it difficult to express how she feels about something, without first trying to understand how I feel about it, or her mother. She also seems to have this Jekyll and Hyde thing going on where she will become very concerned if a situation or conversation involving her mother comes up. Like she must find out what her mom thinks and agree, or else she'll "get in big trouble" as she puts it. I noticed a very unusual dynamic state to occur once I got remarried, and I think the threat of my wife (a very strong, independent woman, great role model for my daughters in my mind) caused my ex to really dig in with emotional control of my 10 year old. I could keep writing for a long time about all of those dynamics, but I'll get to the questions I have.

It appears my daughter is enmeshed with my ex (her mother)... what if any resources are available for this age to help? So far, I've simply taken an approach of "you're getting two perspectives on life, neither is right, neither is wrong, but you'll be an adult one day and you'll get to be your own person with your own choices. I hope you pick what works best for you." kind of mentality. This works phenomenally well with my 13 year old, but I think my 10 year old is driven by her emotions, and sort of wrapped up in her mothers world. The rebellious teenage years are coming, and I suspect a lot of growing, but I know the rules and control will tighten in response from the other house. How do I effectively co-parent (parallel parent, rather) to help my daughter in this situation? I constantly feel like my daughter is comparing the homes and how different it is at my house. "I can be who I am" says the 13 year old... the 10 year old doesn't seem to have this same mindset. I think she feels lost, when she's with me. Like she's missing her mom-half. I wish I could help her to become a more independent young lady... love her mom, but go out into the world and be herself. She seems to be really stunted in that part of life. Any tips/advice is greatly appreciated!

[kells76]

Hey Thomas0311, just wanted to let you know I saw your post.

Lots of similarities: my DH and his kids' mom divorced when the girls were 2 & 4, and they're now 14 & 16 (!). SD16 tends to the rational/analytical side and is persuadable by rules and fairness, but with a LOT of stubbornness (occasionally irrational, interestingly) and still has major loyalty conflicts, while SD14 in a way can "flex" between the houses, but is VERY easily influenced by Mom, Stepdad, friends, and culture.

Enmeshment at 10 is difficult because parts of their thinking are more sophisticated but they're still 10.

How often are the kids with you and with Mom?

Briefly (at work, but want to come back to this): you may need to play the long game and lay a LOT of groundwork pretty consistently for a payoff with her down the road. Train yourself to see opportunities for "oblique" (versus "head on") conversations -- I look for opportunities when SD14 talks about her friend group to point out "well that seemed controlling, I wonder why she did that, what do you think she got out of that behavior". When the kids were younger we watched a LOT of the My Little Pony reboot which was actually really great and provided a ton of openings to discuss stuff like "see how that pony had a feeling about what was going on, but even though the feeling wasn't true, she acted like it was a fact? how did that go for her?"

Sometimes doing a ton of "hit it from the side" conversations can stick more than "attack it from the front" conversations. Kids can sometimes "double down" on defensiveness if they feel like "Dad is saying what I'm doing is wrong" (even if what the kid is doing ISN'T healthy). But you can decrease the potential for defensive shutdown by bringing in a "third party" example... it doesn't feel as personal to the kid to talk about "yeah Dad, I agree that pony seemed enmeshed". That helps them build the vocabulary and see examples to eventually identify what's going on in their own lives.

It is tricky at 10 because kids that age still need to feel like both their parents are reliable and trustworthy. If one parent seems to show that the other parent isn't trustworthy (even if it's true), that can be super destabilizing. So play the long game, as long as the kids are still spending time with you and it isn't moving towards alienation.

Are either of them, or are you, in counseling?

Gotta wrap this up, but glad you posted.

[Thomas0311]

Thanks for the thoughtful response! Lots to digest there, good stuff.

My daughters are with me about 30% of the time. I certainly know what you mean about head on vs from the side. I find that lessons tend to stick, when the kids can make their own connections... I suppose this is the case for everyone. Nothing is stronger than making some realization/association yourself, rather than being told or shown it.

I think one of the really important dynamics here is my wife as well. She's very loving, rational and consistent; that solid stable support is really a guiding light for the two girls, and I think setting a great example for them. I'd say I am rational too, but I think I'm the softer of us, and certainly towards my daughters. My parents took an approach to parenting of really trying to understand what was going on inside our minds, so I tend to do that with my own kids... asking what they think and feel often. I think this is why I'm so focused on my 10 year old, where I'm aware most of what she says, isn't her own thoughts. She struggles to really articulate, or say, what she's thinking or feeling in most situations. When I ask her a question, even "what kind of bread do you want for toast this morning..." sometimes it's as if she's worried she will give me the wrong answer. I know this is a product of the other home, where what she thinks, feels and says is very controlled, and ridiculed. :\

I have a tendency to dig into the causes of things, and I've sheltered my daughters from this, for the most part. I'm very analytical, and how small minutia connect  to the bigger picture. My wife is way more matter of fact, and in some ways this is so much better for the kids. When any conflicting topic comes up, she's simple say what she thinks/feels... or how she sees it. And that's that, and move on. So when it comes to something different between the homes, that my 10 year old has brought up... while I'll struggle to communicate how and why things are different, and how that's ok... perspectives. My wife will simply say in a few words why we live the way we do and why it's the right way. Not that she's saying the other home is wrong, but I can't help but think that's maybe what the 10 year old hears.

I'm rambling at this point... I think that straight on approach is ideal, but the downside is that my 10 year old is careful to bring up differences, around my wife. I think because subtly it makes her feel her mom is wrong. So she'll talk to me privately about them.

I've thought about starting counseling for the kids, and tried in the past. I've also asked ex-wife to do co-parenting classes, but she refuses. She has also been against therapy for the kids. The few counselors I've talked to require that both parents participate, so I didn't get anywhere when I tried, but that was a couple years ago. Maybe at their ages now it'll be easier.

[BigOof]

Thomas0311, have you read "Understanding the Borderline Mother" and "Surviving the Borderline Parent?"

Sounds like D10 has been groomed to caretake her mother's needs. D10 has to be enmeshed to survive being ensconced in her mother's emotional needs. You can't hold that against her. She is forced to live on the border between insanity and sanity.

I would read a book about critical thinking and then teach it to D10. Maybe something like "Raising Critical Thinkers."

[Gemsforeyes]

Hi Thomas-

This is a really difficult topic... and one that hits pretty close to home for me because in the end, I needed to end the relationship with my exBPD (with strong narcissist traits) bf largely because of the enmeshment between him and his mother.  Our rs lasted 6.5 years, but the extent their sickness didn’t become as apparent until the last year, when his mother’s husband passed.  I knew something was “off” from the start, but just couldn’t identify what it was.  There’s just so much to it.

Then there’s my stepson from my marriage.  He was my “son” from when he was 5 until 24, and we stayed pretty close until about 2016, right after he married at 29.  He was always very scared to upset his mom.  She had issues, but I would not call her disordered.  But my exH (his father) is... My s-son, was not a “rolling stone”, meaning he felt comfortable being close to home.  His older sister had done a semester abroad during college and my son felt enormous pressure to do the same.  He became so upset he nearly couldn’t sleep.  So one evening he was talking to me alone about the trip, he couldn’t sit still... and I asked him “honey, are those your own thoughts you’re thinking?”  And he started to cry.  Balled his eyes out and said he didn’t want to go.  And sadly, that was probably the first and last time my son allowed himself to make an important decision on his own.  Turns out he married an extremely controlling and very disordered woman.  Not only does he no longer have a relationship with me, but he no longer is really permitted to speak with his bio mom either.  His mom is the person who called and told me.

So my advice differs a bit.  I’d say, learn what you can about differentiation and Individuation.  Watch your sources.  Try to gain an understanding where you can.  And I believe you can probably initially engage in some “fun” age appropriate activities with both of your daughters and your current wife as a family. 

Maybe you’ll find this dumb, but you mentioned toast for breakfast.  So perhaps do “blind taste tests” of three or four different toasted breads one night, A, B, C and D.  And then each girl privately votes and describes what she likes about her pick BEFORE the flavors are unveiled.

And then a blind taste test of three or four different ice cream flavors: A,B,C,D.  You see?

The three girls taste with blindfolds on and secretly write their favorite flavors.  No right or wrong answer.  EVER.  And then get to describe what they liked about the letter/flavor before the actual flavor is disclosed to the group.

Too dumb?  It’s meant to show that taste buds, like tastes in all things may differ.  And that’s just fine!

Differentiation.  It’s a thing.  And it begins very young.

Warmly,
Gemsforeyes