uBPDxw Now Planning to Move in with Fiancé (just met in January)

[Before you can make things better, you have to stop making them worse...]

This stuff just keeps happening faster and faster.  I found out last week that uBPDxw is engaged to a woman she just met and started dating in January, and they started seriously talking engagement in April.  Then today I got a message from her that they're planning to move in together in the Fall (see below).

uBPDxw:

Fiancé and I are planning to move in together and have set a timeline for that to happen this fall.  In an effort to create safety, support, guidance and love for our children during this transition, I have created a list of topics that I feel that we need to discuss and agree upon.

Current topics that involve all 3 adults

(1)  S9's feline allergy: Fiancé has two cats. She has taken several steps to decrease the amount of allergenic substances that they produce. She has them on an allergen reducing diet, brushes them regularly, has an automatic litter box and HEPA filter vacuum. We plan to continue all of these behaviors and add an air purifier, and keep the cats out of S9's room.

Allergy shots - I have made an appointment for S9 to see Dr. Allergy, my allergist that skin tested him three years ago.
(link to allergy shot information at Mayo Clinic)
(link to Mayo Clinic Q and A: Children with animal allergies can live comfortably with pets)
(link to info on Purina LIVECLEAR diet)
(link to info on Pet allergies)

(2)  Pick up from school/track out/your home

If we cannot come to a resolution on our own about these topics, then I will request that a parenting session be scheduled in which you, Fiancé and I are present to discuss topics that involve all 3 parties.

RR:  What can you and I agree upon without involving the PC and/or Family Therapist?
RR:  Do you agree to the appointment with Dr. Allergy?
RR:  Do you agree to Fiancé being added to the pick up list at camp and the school?
RR:  Do you agree to Fiancé being able to pick up S9 from your house on appropriate exchange days?

We already have so much to address in family therapy, and now this will definitely be added to the pile.  I'm once again seeking the input of this community for how best to approach these decisions and the topics that we're going to have to navigate.  I don't intend to respond until I have my session with my therapist tomorrow, but I also don't want this to eat up all my time in my own individual therapy.

Some of my initial thoughts are:

• The move is going to happen one way or another, so with S9's allergy it seems like the shots might be necessary.
• What happens if S9 does not want to do the shots, or they are not effective?
• I'd rather not add the fiancé to the pick up list at school or at the camp until they are actually married.
• I'm not inclined to agree to the fiancé picking up from my house either (which gets back to the advice from my prior post not to be set up for one-on-one interaction).
• Fiancé has no part in these discussions/decisions, and I do not see her having a seat at the table in family therapy for any reason at this point

mw

[mama-wolf]

This stuff just keeps happening faster and faster.  I found out last week that uBPDxw is engaged to a woman she just met and started dating in January, and they started seriously talking engagement in April.  Then today I got a message from her that they're planning to move in together in the Fall (see below).

uBPDxw:

Fiancé and I are planning to move in together and have set a timeline for that to happen this fall.  In an effort to create safety, support, guidance and love for our children during this transition, I have created a list of topics that I feel that we need to discuss and agree upon.

Current topics that involve all 3 adults

(1)  S9's feline allergy: Fiancé has two cats. She has taken several steps to decrease the amount of allergenic substances that they produce. She has them on an allergen reducing diet, brushes them regularly, has an automatic litter box and HEPA filter vacuum. We plan to continue all of these behaviors and add an air purifier, and keep the cats out of S9's room.

Allergy shots - I have made an appointment for S9 to see Dr. Allergy, my allergist that skin tested him three years ago.
(link to allergy shot information at Mayo Clinic)
(link to Mayo Clinic Q and A: Children with animal allergies can live comfortably with pets)
(link to info on Purina LIVECLEAR diet)
(link to info on Pet allergies)

(2)  Pick up from school/track out/your home

If we cannot come to a resolution on our own about these topics, then I will request that a parenting session be scheduled in which you, Fiancé and I are present to discuss topics that involve all 3 parties.

RR:  What can you and I agree upon without involving the PC and/or Family Therapist?
RR:  Do you agree to the appointment with Dr. Allergy?
RR:  Do you agree to Fiancé being added to the pick up list at camp and the school?
RR:  Do you agree to Fiancé being able to pick up S9 from your house on appropriate exchange days?

We already have so much to address in family therapy, and now this will definitely be added to the pile.  I'm once again seeking the input of this community for how best to approach these decisions and the topics that we're going to have to navigate.  I don't intend to respond until I have my session with my therapist tomorrow, but I also don't want this to eat up all my time in my own individual therapy.

Some of my initial thoughts are:

• The move is going to happen one way or another, so with S9's allergy it seems like the shots might be necessary.
• What happens if S9 does not want to do the shots, or they are not effective?
• I'd rather not add the fiancé to the pick up list at school or at the camp until they are actually married.
• I'm not inclined to agree to the fiancé picking up from my house either (which gets back to the advice from my prior post not to be set up for one-on-one interaction).
• Fiancé has no part in these discussions/decisions, and I do not see her having a seat at the table in family therapy for any reason at this point

mw

[zachira]

It seems that your uBPDxw has recruited a partner to be her flying monkey, to use as an ally against you. I don't see this relationship as a healthy one for your children as the engagement after a short relationship does not seem healthy and is typical BPD behavior.

[livednlearned]

Whoa! Fast stuff.

How are you feeling about having a new person involved in your kids' lives?

The move is going to happen one way or another, so with S9's allergy it seems like the shots might be necessary.

Maybe a positive outcome of having so many professionals involved is that uBPDxw thought so much of this through in advance.

What happens if S9 does not want to do the shots, or they are not effective?

This is probably going to be something to manage as each thing unfolds, is my guess. If S9 doesn't want to do the shots, do you feel it's his place to make that decision? Would you feel the same way regardless of BPD factors?

I'd rather not add the fiancé to the pick up list at school or at the camp until they are actually married.

Just want to flag that uBPDxw seems to be recognizing the coparenting nature of your relationship. Having said that, when uBPDxw cannot pick the kids up, do you typically go get them? If it were me, I would want to remain the primary alternate. If not, it seems reasonable to require them to be officially together, especially if that buys everyone a little time to adjust.

I get wanting to slow things down from the rapid pacing, especially given what your family has going on, what you've all been through. Perhaps the best response is to encourage stability and consistency until the kids have adjusted, and to introduce small changes as slowly as possible. If so, what do you think would be a reasonable waiting period (if that's your preference)?

I'm not inclined to agree to the fiancé picking up from my house either (which gets back to the advice from my prior post not to be set up for one-on-one interaction).

Meaning, you don't want uBPDxw or new fiance to pick them up at your house?

Fiancé has no part in these discussions/decisions, and I do not see her having a seat at the table in family therapy for any reason at this point

This feels the most BPD-ish. Requesting this suggest she doesn't have a good grasp on boundaries. While she's recognizing that part of how this family operates is through the support of third-party professionals, she doesn't seem to understand that involving a new person in existing dynamics rushes things inappropriately. I would think uBPDxw and fiance will need to work through issues on their own, as a new couple learning to blend a family.

You get to set the terms of how you want to move forward, mw. She won't have the emotional maturity to handle this skillfully, though she is trying (it seems).

Have you noticed a change in stability since Jan when they started dating?

Have the kids mentioned how they feel about the new person?



 

[livednlearned]

I just caught up on your other posts and wanted to add my sincere condolences about your mom. You've been through so much, mw. Going from court to the hospital, then your mom dying the next day, the introduction of a new person to your coparenting, the loss of your family T and introduction of a new one (that you aren't sure you can trust). It's so much.

Plus, the email from this new person really took my breath away. It reminded me of me when I first met n/BPDx. He portrayed his ex wife as a demon and one day she called to introduce herself (discovering that n/BPDx and I were married) and I was so fully duped by the BPD narrative I'm embarrassed how icily I responded. She was trying to establish a relationship with someone who would be in her son's life and I used that opportunity to align my allegiances. I cringe thinking about it, and I'm sorry you had to experience something similar.

[mama-wolf]

Hey lnl...I'm really happy to hear from you!

How are you feeling about having a new person involved in your kids' lives?

I'm not very happy about it overall, but I think it's to be expected at some point.  I was trying to give her the benefit of the doubt, but the more things seem to accelerate the more concerned I get.  My T hinted that this woman may share similar traits to uBPDxw, which could help explain the timeline, and so of course that does not sit well at all with me.

If S9 doesn't want to do the shots, do you feel it's his place to make that decision? Would you feel the same way regardless of BPD factors?

I guess part of me feels like this is uBPDxw's life choice, and that he will already be immediately suffering as a result.  I get that he's a kid and on some level that's just the reality, but at the same time I can see this being very upsetting for him.  I honestly feel like she's setting herself up to be resented by him, and I am not looking forward to dealing with the fallout of that either.

Just want to flag that uBPDxw seems to be recognizing the coparenting nature of your relationship. Having said that, when uBPDxw cannot pick the kids up, do you typically go get them? If it were me, I would want to remain the primary alternate. If not, it seems reasonable to require them to be officially together, especially if that buys everyone a little time to adjust.

Perhaps the best response is to encourage stability and consistency until the kids have adjusted, and to introduce small changes as slowly as possible. If so, what do you think would be a reasonable waiting period (if that's your preference)?

Yes, I have done the pick-up if she couldn't get there in time or something urgent came up, but she has abused using me as a back-up.  Generally speaking I have been trying to maintain a boundary that she is responsible for her custodial days and needs to make arrangements with her parents or brother or sister-in-law for help if she needs it.  I feel like that still applies here, even though I also try to think about it the other way around...if I had a fiancé would I want her to be able to pick the kids up...

I do like the small changes introduced slowly approach...I think that's a good way to work on this.

Meaning, you don't want uBPDxw or new fiance to pick them up at your house?

No, meaning only that I don't want the fiancé to pick up at my house.  There are times when uBPDxw has to pick up at my house (or I have to pick up at hers)...our custody order specifies this for the days if the kids are not at school or at camp.  But she's trying to set it up that the fiancé would come to my house to pick up instead of her.  Which sets me up for one-on-one interaction which I think I should avoid wherever possible, as kells76 mentioned in my last thread about the engagement...

she doesn't seem to understand that involving a new person in existing dynamics rushes things inappropriately. I would think uBPDxw and fiance will need to work through issues on their own, as a new couple learning to blend a family.

Yes, very much this...I'm not part of their duo and it's not up to me to manage Fiancé's feelings or put myself in a position to for them both to gang up on me.

Have you noticed a change in stability since Jan when they started dating?

Have the kids mentioned how they feel about the new person?

I just caught up on your other posts and wanted to add my sincere condolences about your mom. You've been through so much, mw. Going from court to the hospital, then your mom dying the next day, the introduction of a new person to your coparenting, the loss of your family T and introduction of a new one (that you aren't sure you can trust). It's so much.

Thank you lnl...yes, it definitely has been a lot.

Things were actually fairly quiet in January and into February...and that's when uBPDxw summarily quit family therapy and started that whole spiral.  Since then she has of course pressed boundaries and tried to maneuver me into decisions, generally being fairly destabilizing. 

As far as what the kids have to say, D13 is currently no-contact with uBPDxw, so she doesn't know (I actually plan to just give her a brief update tonight since S9 won't be with us).  S9 is pretty quiet about any of these things...uBPDxw claims she told him about Fiancé after they started dating and that he really anted to meet her but she told him that we felt it best to wait until six months.  And she claimed that meeting when really well of course.  But he doesn't say much and I try not to pry.

Plus, the email from this new person really took my breath away. It reminded me of me when I first met n/BPDx. He portrayed his ex wife as a demon and one day she called to introduce herself (discovering that n/BPDx and I were married) and I was so fully duped by the BPD narrative I'm embarrassed how icily I responded. She was trying to establish a relationship with someone who would be in her son's life and I used that opportunity to align my allegiances. I cringe thinking about it, and I'm sorry you had to experience something similar.

Thank you again...it's really hard to know what to say or do when that narrative is spun so well.

mw

[kells76]

I was thinking about your situation last night, and the vibe I get is that xW is again trying to bulldoze boundaries and reclaim the "top" position through insidious moves that seem "mostly normal" or "basically fine" to most people, and that she's trying to push you into defending your boundaries in a way that seems "excessive" or "ridiculous" so she can, again, claim the title of "the reasonable parent that's just caring about the kids and wants to be a peaceful coparenting family together". Almost like she's trying to get you to be defensive -- over something that actually is important -- so that she can fingerpoint and be like "see? see? I'm just trying to cooperate, but mama-wolf is the bad one, the one stonewalling, foot dragging, obstructing, etc".

When I say "trying" I don't necessarily mean consciously, FYI. Maybe yes, maybe no, but the effect is the same.

The tactic she seems to be using (again, no comment on whether it's conscious or not, because it kind of doesn't matter, in a way) is to propose a lot of really specific detailed stuff that on a normal timeline , after more getting-to-know-the-fiancé and/or doing one thing at a time might be okay, but are inappropriate when bundled and accelerated. Perhaps the gamble is that moving the focus to "I just can't believe mama-wolf isn't agreeing to this long list of specific and very normal proposals" takes the focus off of "so why are you moving so quickly and trying to do all these changes at once?"

It's the classic BPD "you have to decide now, there's no time to slow down and thing" false sense of urgency, coupled with the entitlement: "I've already jumped to my incredibly wise decision and there's no need to try anything else as lower intensity options. It's my 10 or nothing, there is no 5"

What's tricky is that a practitioner might be "distracted" by "let's try to talk through each of these issues" and miss the bigger picture -- why does this all have to happen right now?

Might be time for some jiu-jitsu.

I wonder if you can find a way to agree with some of what she's proposing... on a different timeline, that's focused on how S9 is doing with the changes.

She's proposing allergy shots for S9. Is there a way to "slow the roll" with "thanks for thinking about S9's cat allergy. I have no issue with him getting shots if after 2 months benadryl hasn't seemed to help. Let's have Dr Z monitor symptoms and if Dr Z recommends shots after 2 months I agree with you, let's do it" (or whatever timeline/OTC med you think of).

Just had a thought -- she's jumping to all these "10/10 intensity, must do now" decisions as if her new relationship is going to last forever: "S9 needs these shots because he's going to live with fiance and me for the rest of his life and we are together forever"... I mean... if they break up after a couple months... what was the point? It's kind of roping him in to validate the "foreverness" of her new relationship.

Again, it could be that the shots are net neutral or at least not negative -- could help if he does sleepovers at friends' houses. If you don't have other reasons to oppose the shots (and if you did, I would 110% understand any of them), the thought I'm getting is a "yes sure I agree... we can do Z if after we do A through Y those don't work".

...

Having fiance pick up from your house: is there any language in your PP/custody agreement about limitations on what the "parent in the car" can do? Some agreements have "parent dropping off or picking up stays in the car, kids go to and from the house to car on their own". S9 is more than old enough to do that. If that kind of language is there, would that help?

This could be framed as: There are a lot of changes going on for S9 and there has been a history of conflict between the adults in his life. Let's find ways to minimize conflict between adults in front of him for X amount of time; after X time, let's check in and see how he's doing, and see if we move to the next step. "Sure, I have no problem with fiance doing drop offs or pick ups, as long as for 6 months, we try it with S9 going between house and car. Let's keep the adults to the side in the car and house for a bit, and make sure he's transitioning OK. After that, yes, I agree let's try xW's idea".

Fiance on pickup list at camp: how long does camp last? Are pickups on xW's time? Does she legally need your agreement to add a name to the pickup list?

Part of me would want to try that as a compromise: "look, you can have whoever you want pick up at camp", but part of me senses a "camel's nose under the tent" situation: "mama-wolf had no problem with fiance doing camp pickup, so it makes no sense that she'd not want fiance to do other pickups".

Then this:

What can you and I agree upon without involving the PC and/or Family Therapist?

This has never been resolved to her satisfaction, right?

Because there's nothing you guys have tried to work on "on your own" that has stayed low conflict or not relitigated?

Kind of ballsy for her to write. Not a lot of insight, sigh.

Anyway, you might be able to kick it down the road with some reference to "There's nothing on my list at the moment, though after we work with New Family T for X time, I'm open to revisit"

I will request that a parenting session be scheduled in which you, Fiancé and I are present to discuss topics that involve all 3 parties.

So she's preframing FT as involving the fiance. You don't have to accept that framing and urgency right away. Again, can you "slow the roll" with a middle ground proposal: "I have no problem involving Fiance in FT on a timeline and at a level that is recommended by the FT. Let's meet with FT just you and I first, to talk about FT's recommendations for involving Fiance" or something where it's that "Yes, but" jiujitsu.

...

I think LnL summarized the vibes well:

she doesn't seem to understand that involving a new person in existing dynamics rushes things inappropriately. I would think uBPDxw and fiance will need to work through issues on their own, as a new couple learning to blend a family.

You get to set the terms of how you want to move forward, mw. She won't have the emotional maturity to handle this skillfully, though she is trying (it seems).

 

I feel for you in all this. It seems like having to redo all the legal stuff all over again, every single email. The exhaustion is real, and wouldn't it be nice if we could direct all that energy that they suck up, to the kids. It's like pwBPD who are coparents are stuck in the high conflict early separation times, and don't move forward, and undermine even themselves with high conflict suggestions. It's relentless.

I hope you find a moment today to chill with whatever drink or show or friend or all of the above that is relaxing for you 

...

P.S.

uBPDxw claims she told him about Fiancé after they started dating and that he really wanted to meet her but she told him that we felt it best to wait until six months.  And she claimed that meeting when really well of course.

Of course she says all that, which makes me doubt it's true. "It was S9 who wanted to speed things up, but I was the responsible mom and was like, Sorry, I have to slow it down, even though that's not what you want"     

Oh PLEASE, give me a break!

[mama-wolf]

So happy to hear from you, kells76!  I will respond to the rest of your message in more detail later, but had further development this morning that I just couldn't delay...

It's the classic BPD "you have to decide now, there's no time to slow down and thing" false sense of urgency, coupled with the entitlement: "I've already jumped to my incredibly wise decision and there's no need to try anything else as lower intensity options. It's my 10 or nothing, there is no 5"

This is exactly what I encountered this morning.  She sent that message yesterday asking me those things.  I have not yet responded because I know I deserve some time to fully consider and respond thoughtfully.  Then she sends this message just over 24 hours from the last message:

uBPDxw:

In getting ready to leave town tomorrow, I need Fiancé to pick up S9 this afternoon while I work.  I will talk to the front desk at the Camp and give her my placard to get him.

I'm still trying to work through how I want to respond overall, and plan to do that some in my therapy session this afternoon, but I did send the following:

MW:

While I may be willing to agree for Fiancé to pick the kids up at school and at Camp, asking me about it one day and then simply informing me the next day that it is going to happen is not OK.  I am allowed to take some time to consider this and will not be forced into decisions based on your circumstances or conditions.

In the spirit of collaboration, I will agree to it for today.  However, I will be taking a few days to think through it overall and until I have done so I do not agree for Fiancé to be added to any pick-up forms.

I may be shooting myself in the foot, but felt like I had to say something.  And I am of course seriously kicking myself for the typo about "the kids" rather than saying "S9" (since picking up D13 is definitely not on the table)...

mw

[livednlearned]

Many BPD issues seem to stem from impulse control, which then creates these unnecessary time pressures. You handled it well.

Of course, the crux of what went down is that she didn't give you a heads up when she first learned she was going out of town, making arrangements in advance with you like responsible adults do.  

Do you have anything in your parenting order about how much time must be given before responding?

I think kells76's point is so insightful and probably could be framed every time you talk about uBPDxw to professionals. She moves the goal post so you're not even playing on level ground, making you adapt to ground the game wasn't designed for. Sorry to overwork the metaphor -- it just seems relevant to how you keep ending up in a defensive position in these "professional" triangles.

What do you think about finding language to use every time -- a safety device for you that helps shift things back to the regular field. "Thanks for your note. My goal is consistency and stability for S9, as always. Since we all know change is constant, the best we can do is slow things down so S9 has time to adjust and settle. I do best when I have some time to think things through. I'll get back to you when I've had a chance to give these items the thought and care they deserve."

Something like that, so professionals understand that taking your time to reflect and respond = looking out for S9. Even in the virtual calls. Who can argue with wanting to take time?

Your ex, of course   But that's sort of the point. She wants to rush you and fluster you and get you unmoored so she can roll through boundaries and gain some semblance of power and control. It might be intentional or not, either way if you don't have a lifeline when things start to move quickly, you'll always be on the defensive, and that's a bad place to be with all these professionals milling around.

[kells76]

Something like that, so professionals understand that taking your time to reflect and respond = looking out for S9. Even in the virtual calls. Who can argue with wanting to take time?

Exactly. A good canned response to practice might be:

"I recognize that this seems really important to you. I want to give it the thought it deserves, so I'll think about it for a few days and get an email back to you by Date/Time"

And then yeah, weaving in that the reason you're taking time to think is for S9's benefit:

"I'm sure we both recognize that this change will impact S9. I'm going to think about it for a few days so that I can make wise suggestions about how we move forward at a measured pace that is healthy for S9"

Put the work back on her to argue "No, it's healthier to rush these things and not think about them".

...

Another good "canned response" could be a posture of "I'm confused..."

"Hi Ex;

I'm a little confused. In your email on Day you said "Do you agree to Fiancé being added to the pick up list at camp and the school?", but then in your email this morning you said "I need Fiancé to pick up S9 this afternoon while I work.  I will talk to the front desk at the Camp and give her my placard to get him."

Are you saying that even if I didn't agree, you would still move forward with having Fiance pick up S9?

Thanks for any clarification;

mama-wolf"

I agree with LnL that getting your "agree for one day but not a blanket agreement" email on paper was a good move. The "I'm confused" move could just be another tool/approach in your toolbelt that creates this paper trail to present, "with your befuddlement", to the professionals.

"Family T, what have you recommended in situations like these? I'm just at a loss for how to move forward here"

It's not necessarily the right response for every situation, just another idea for handling her impulse control and pressure.

...

When I say Ugh, know that I really understand where you're coming from.

[mama-wolf]

Following up to respond more thoroughly here (and I started catching up on your latest posts, kells76, so hope to respond there as well in the next day or so)...

I was thinking about your situation last night, and the vibe I get is that xW is again trying to bulldoze boundaries and reclaim the "top" position through insidious moves that seem "mostly normal" or "basically fine" to most people, and that she's trying to push you into defending your boundaries in a way that seems "excessive" or "ridiculous" so she can, again, claim the title of "the reasonable parent that's just caring about the kids and wants to be a peaceful coparenting family together".

Yes, I definitely sense this motive behind the way she's behaving.

I wonder if you can find a way to agree with some of what she's proposing... on a different timeline, that's focused on how S9 is doing with the changes.

I was headed in that direction slightly with considering agreement to the Camp and school pick-ups, but not to picking up at my house.  My T had some good suggestions that are more in line with what you suggested about drawing the timeline out...more conducive I think to the argument that S9 needs time to adjust to these changes (and so do I, but it's more about him).  Either way, I think I'm spending my energy more efficiently at this point thanks to these suggestions, and working on a response that proposes just that...to "slow the roll."

Having fiance pick up from your house: is there any language in your PP/custody agreement about limitations on what the "parent in the car" can do?

Unfortunately, no...which is why we had so much trouble in the first couple of years due to uBPDxw pushing boundaries during each custody exchange.  With the previous Family T, we were able to set up guidelines that contained this, but of course now she is clearly feeling free to disregard any of those arrangements.

And actually, because uBPDxw and Fiancé are taking a trip this weekend, she's bringing S9 to me tomorrow morning (rather than me picking him up) so that they can leave earlier like they want.  I almost guarantee you Fiancé will be with her, and when I realized this while talking to my T, the anxiety spiked like crazy.  We talked through how to handle it, but again this gets back to nothing in the custody order to manage this.

I will definitely be bringing this general topic to the new Family T..

Fiance on pickup list at camp: how long does camp last? Are pickups on xW's time? Does she legally need your agreement to add a name to the pickup list?

Camp is for 3-4 weeks at a time when the kids are on a break during a year-round school calendar, and it's day camp that ends at 6pm. So it's me or her depending on who's custodial day it is, and otherwise grandparents, aunts, and uncles are on the pick-up list (both sides of the family).  I am pretty sure that from her perspective, she doesn't need my agreement, but I would say it's like medical decisions...we both need to agree or it goes to the PC (if we can't work it out in family therapy).

Part of me would want to try that as a compromise: "look, you can have whoever you want pick up at camp", but part of me senses a "camel's nose under the tent" situation: "mama-wolf had no problem with fiance doing camp pickup, so it makes no sense that she'd not want fiance to do other pickups".

This is absolutely her pattern.  Which is why I already worry that me agreeing to it just for today--even expressly stating that I don't agree overall--is going to be used in that way.

So she's preframing FT as involving the fiance. You don't have to accept that framing and urgency right away. Again, can you "slow the roll" with a middle ground proposal: "I have no problem involving Fiance in FT on a timeline and at a level that is recommended by the FT. Let's meet with FT just you and I first, to talk about FT's recommendations for involving Fiance" or something where it's that "Yes, but" jiujitsu.

Yes, yes, and yes.  As far as I'm concerned, Fiancé is not part of family therapy until they're married, and even the majority of any discussion needs to be between me and uBPDxw.  Any issues Fiancé has need to be addressed between the two of them, and they can go to their own couples counseling if they want.  Maybe once they have been married a while that would change, but in this current, accelerated, rapid-change state there is no way I'm getting drawn into that.  I will listen to FT's suggestions, but they will be filtered through my own individual T's input of what's best for my mental health...and her perspective on what's best for my kids as well since she has been involved from the beginning and I'm still trying to decide if I can trust this new Family T.

I feel for you in all this. It seems like having to redo all the legal stuff all over again, every single email. The exhaustion is real

I hope you find a moment today to chill with whatever drink or show or friend or all of the above that is relaxing for you 

Thank you for this validation...and the encouragement for self-care.  I really needed it.

When I say Ugh, know that I really understand where you're coming from.

I know you do... ..I wish none of us had to go through all of this.

Many BPD issues seem to stem from impulse control, which then creates these unnecessary time pressures. You handled it well.

Thank you so much lnl...it really helps to hear that because I was stressing about it a lot.

Of course, the crux of what went down is that she didn't give you a heads up when she first learned she was going out of town, making arrangements in advance with you like responsible adults do.  

Exactly...she didn't plan ahead, then realized she wanted to bucket the pick-up topic with a bunch of other things with false urgency, then when I didn't respond immediately she went on to do what she wanted to do as far as the pickup goes.

Do you have anything in your parenting order about how much time must be given before responding?

No but I have established a boundary before that I will take up to 48 hours to reply to something that requires a more considered response.  Even then, I may say that I'll consider it and get back in a few days.

She moves the goal post so you're not even playing on level ground, making you adapt to ground the game wasn't designed for. Sorry to overwork the metaphor -- it just seems relevant to how you keep ending up in a defensive position in these "professional" triangles.

This was the foundation of a lot of the issues in our marriage and emotional abuse I experienced.  She would want something, and then get it and it before long it wasn't good enough.  And would complain about a behavior of mine, often enough and long enough (and/or loud enough), and then once I tried to change a habit or things got more to her liking, there was always something else for me to work on.  And something else after that.   So yes, this is very much how she's operating now, just with different goal posts.

I love the canned response suggestions you and kells76 offered, and will absolutely incorporate that into my toolbox.  Thank you both!

mw

[mama-wolf]

And it continues...

Wednesday, uBPDxw asked if I would agree to Fiancé being added to the approved lists for picking up S9 from school and camp (among her other demands).  Thursday, without waiting for my response, she said she needed Fiancé to pick S9 up from camp that day, and she would be notifying the front desk.  And then on Friday, in her custody exchange update, she sent this:

Fiancé spent the day with S9 yesterday instead of Camp.  They dropped off Dog with Fiancé's friend, FriendName, he was sad but quickly recovered.  They ran errands together and went to the pool at my house.  He told Fiancé he wants more practice before he takes the black band test at Camp next week.

(We'd had a separate exchange about signing S9 up for swim lessons, which I had said I didn't think was necessary because he was swimming just fine at my house and was planning to test for his black band to be able to swim in the deep end at camp.)

So now, in stead of having Fiance pick S9 up at camp, uBPDxw just decided to have him spend the day with her.

This again gets back to doing things that on the surface and in other circumstances would be perfectly normal.  I wouldn't ask uBPDxw ahead of time if I arranged childcare for S9 and kept him out of camp for the day.  But it's this accelerated timetable of integrating this new Fiance that she just met in January so fully into S9's life that's really got my alarms going off bigtime.  S9 just met her two weeks ago, and now she's becoming this constant fixture whenever he's with uBPDxw.

I did discuss this with my T on Friday and will bring it to the family therapist this coming week.  I just don't know how I'm going to get the message across about slowing things down as far as S9 goes.  I'm not sure it'll make any difference ultimately...she's just going to do what she wants and what her impulsivity pushes her to do.  And I'm so worried for how that's going to affect S9...

mw

[zachira]

The new developments with uBPDx are very worrying. Do you know about parent alienation? It seems there isn't anything that uBPDx would not do, to win, without any regard for how it affects your children. I am keeping my fingers crossed for you, that at some point, uBPDx no longer has custody. You might want to read some of Forever Dad's posts on the long battle he fought to get primary custody. You have got to stand your ground, which you are doing, while having hope that you will get more and more legal control over decisions made that directly affect the lives of your children, because you are the parent who truly cares about their wellbeing.

[mama-wolf]

The new developments with uBPDx are very worrying. Do you know about parent alienation?

Thank you, zachira.  I am familiar with parent alienation, particularly with uBPDxw trying to insinuate that I was guilty of this with D13.  And I have read quite a bit of FD's posts, but not recently, so I will look into those.  Thank you!

I spent some time thinking this weekend about my response to uBPDxw, and I have composed the draft below.  After her note on Thursday, I had set a specific boundary that I would respond by end of day on Monday.  I tried to blend in various suggestions that really resonated with me, and I welcome any thoughts on how to adjust it further.  I am sure uBPDxw will try to argue any little piece of it that she can...

Thank you for letting me know about your plans to move in with Fiancé in the Fall.  I appreciate your understanding while I take the time to give these items the thought and care they deserve. 

S9 just met Fiancé a little over two weeks ago.  After the communication I received late last week, I am concerned that she is already becoming a constant fixture in his life during your custodial time, without giving S9 time to adjust to the changes that are happening.  My goal is consistency and stability for him, as always, and I think it best to slow things down so S9 can adjust and settle.

Response Re: S9's feline allergy - I am very appreciative of Fiancé's efforts to reduce allergens through the cats' diet, regular brushing, etc.  I am hopeful that this will make a huge difference in S9's experience in the home, as I do not agree at this time to forcing allergy shots on him.  I agree to the appointment with Dr. Allergy to begin a discussion about options.  I would like to try oral medication first for at least two months post-move, with Dr. Allergy monitoring symptoms before we pursue other treatment plans.

Response Re:  Pick up from school/trackout/home - I do not agree at this time to adding Fiancé to any pick up lists, or to Fiancé picking S9 up for custody exchanges.  I am willing to revisit the pick up lists at school and camp after you have moved in together, as I understand the logistical impact that may have.

I understand and respect that your relationship with Fiancé is important to you.  Regardless of the accelerated pace of your relationship, Fiancé is not a part of family therapy with FT, and I do not consent to adding her at this time.  You will need to work through issues on your own, as a new couple learning to blend a family.  After you have been married and Fiancé becomes a step parent, I am willing to discuss involving her in family therapy on a timeline and at a level that is recommended by FT.

mw

[GaGrl]

Are you going to address S9 staying out of camp all day with Fiance'. That could be couched as changes to his agree coupon schedule.

[mama-wolf]

Are you going to address S9 staying out of camp all day with Fiance'. That could be couched as changes to his agree coupon schedule.

I really want to, but I may have painted myself into a corner on that one.  Generally speaking, I have tried to maintain a boundary that if it’s my custodial time, I will make appropriate childcare arrangements for the kids (like a sitter or staying with a family member) if and when needed, and I will not ask uBPDxw for her permission.  Just as I generally expect her to do.

In the case of her keeping him out of camp on Friday, I am sure she will argue that she did just that.  But it’s not about that…it’s about suddenly this person he just met who is going to become his stepparent is already starting to fill that role. She’s not a paid sitter or some other caregiver.  I’m just not quite sure how to address it in my note to her…

mw

[zachira]

An excellent book on parent alienation is "Divorce Poison". It has a lot of strategies for dealing with parent alienation.

[kells76]

Going back to this for a second:

  I will listen to FT's suggestions, but they will be filtered through my own individual T's input of what's best for my mental health...and her perspective on what's best for my kids as well since she has been involved from the beginning and I'm still trying to decide if I can trust this new Family T.

I get that it's a gamble to "put all your bets" on "Let's abide by Current FT's recommendations", given how new FT is. The gamble is that what xW is doing is so out of the realm of normal-range parenting that there's no way FT would recommend "sure, we need to quickly incorporate this new person no matter how S9 is doing". It's a trust fall for sure, and it's good that you're running things by your individual T.

DH made a similar gamble on the kids' T back in the day, in getting an agreement on paper with Mom that he and she would follow the T's recommendations. This was a T that Mom had picked. It was a similar trust fall -- that if the T was anywhere near competent, she wouldn't be recommending anything more harmful to the kids than what Mom and Stepdad were already doing. It ended up being true, fortunately, yet again, I get how it isn't a move that is right for everyone to make.

...

Did your previous FT record any recommendations or guidelines for "best practices for kids" when a new partner enters the mix?

I'm wondering if you can low-key point to those in your upcoming FT sessions, using the "I'm confused..." / slight befuddlement position:

"I just can't make sense of it... I thought we were all on board with Prev FT's guidelines to do ABC and not do XYZ when introducing a new partner to S9... can you help me understand if those were bad recommendations?"

My hope would be that any suggestion that previous FT had that touched in any way on parent romantic behaviors would be pretty boilerplate AND something xW isn't abiding by right now.

So it might be "interesting" to seek the help of current FT to "help you understand if those were bad recommendations".

Or "Is there something special about the current situation that I'm missing, that would mean that introduction of new partners to the kids should be accelerated?"

...

All of the moves she's making strike me as ways to legitimize her relationship from the outside. It's like moving paper dolls around on a little stage and saying "See? See? It's REAL". And she's enlisting S9 as an "actor" to play a role she needs him to play.

What's insidious about it is something you pointed to near the start of your thread.

She bundles these "broadly normal" sounding requests and leverages the fact that for a lot of them, she doesn't "need" to ask your permission anyway. Like, she could have just had Fiance pick S9 up from camp without ever getting your permission, right? And like you said, if it's her PT, she makes those day-to-day decisions.

So she is "asking your permission" to make HER day to day parenting decisions, and then when you either "don't get back to her in time" or don't agree, she moves ahead with doing it, and so "flips the roles" so that YOU look like the micromanage-y one.

She is abdicating her responsibility for day to day parenting decisions and then using your "OK, I'll take your request at face value and tell you my true thoughts" position to paint you as "m-w is argumentative, defensive, not cooperative, and micromanages me". But it's her setup that is creating this issue.

There's got to be a way to jiu-jitsu out of this, so she no longer has the power to both decline responsibility AND put it on you to make you "play the role" of the high conflict one.

IDK when or how to communicate it, but the gist of the message that I'm getting off the top of my head is something like (but don't send this verbatim!):

"During your parenting time, you are responsible for "day to day" or "routine" decisions about S9's care, such as transportation and who spends time with him. Here are links to examples of day to day parenting decisions (https://www.masslegalhelp.org/domestic-violence/wdwgfh7/controlling-other-parent , https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/joint-legal-custody-decision-making-during-your-time-germain , www.nuccioshirly.com/custody-and-parenting-time)

 I recognize that I do not have control over that nor should I. However, if you ask me if I agree to a "routine" decision you want to make, I assume that you are saying that if I say No, you will not do it. You may not ask me if I agree or not to a "routine" decision you want to make, and then do it even if I say no or before I have a chance to reply. Only ask me permission about your routine decisions if you are willing to accept No as an answer and abide by it."

That seems like the move that needs to be made, I just don't know the most effective way to do it.

Hope that helps...

[mama-wolf]

Did your previous FT record any recommendations or guidelines for "best practices for kids" when a new partner enters the mix?

Nothing other than encouraging that we each notify the other person if/when we start seeing someone seriously...we never got to that point while we were working with her, and there was so much other stuff to deal with...

She bundles these "broadly normal" sounding requests and leverages the fact that for a lot of them, she doesn't "need" to ask your permission anyway. Like, she could have just had Fiance pick S9 up from camp without ever getting your permission, right? And like you said, if it's her PT, she makes those day-to-day decisions.

So she is "asking your permission" to make HER day to day parenting decisions, and then when you either "don't get back to her in time" or don't agree, she moves ahead with doing it, and so "flips the roles" so that YOU look like the micromanage-y one.

I definitely see this...plus an an added layer.  She is pushing these things on me, because she wants me to ask her these things as well.  Whether it's now with general day-to-day care, and especially in the future if/when I ever allow myself to get into another relationship.  It has always been her tactic to behave towards me in a certain way, and then consider that a contract obligating me to do the same.  But of course will also twist it as you said, making me look like I'm being controlling, etc.

IDK when or how to communicate it, but the gist of the message that I'm getting off the top of my head is something like (but don't send this verbatim!):

I really like your suggestion and will try to work a version of it into our communications...

mw

[livednlearned]

I really identify with the anxiety you feel about pick-ups at your home. Actually, make that all of the anxiety  

Our nervous systems really take a beating with these ongoing shenanigans. You have been in a period of extraordinary strain, mama-wolf.

A thought came to me somewhat tangential to the issues at hand, and more along the lines of whether your talk therapy is helping manage the physiological aspects of this strain?

Because it seems like that is in play here, too. Your physiological well-being. It's important on its own and in terms of how you respond to uBPDxw, especially now that she has some new bombs to drop.  

When I did talk therapy, it was more like counseling and having someone help me think through tricky issues in the context of where I was at, where I had come from. Only when I started somatic work (specially somatic experiencing therapy, but there are other ways) did I feel like my nervous systems was not so jacked up. Un-jacking helped with some of the transactional issues.

I'm curious if you have done anything like that, or if anyone has suggested body-based healing work for you?

Sort of related, I am wondering if focusing on the physical impacts of this stress might enable you to handle some of the boundary issues with less fight/flight/freeze, if that's in fact happening.

The thing about these steamrolling-boundary experiences is that they can make us look like we have the problem.

n/BPDx made me seem like a crazy person for not wanting to disclose my new address when I fled the marital home. It's true he had not hit me, I had not filed a restraining order, and in retrospect, it was probably not likely that he would've been directly violent. And he was charming and seemingly compassionate when speaking to the lawyers involved and some of the third-party professionals getting involved. "LnL is have a major psychiatric event, so I want to be sensitive blah blah blah." It added insult to injury. I knew some of the people involved weren't sure who to believe.

Meanwhile, prior to leaving, n/BPDx was able to go right up to the line and not cross it. He threw our dog, threw things in the house, locked me out of the house and other forms of "environmental" abuse (so I've been told it's called), but it felt somewhat ridiculous to say, "n/BPDx threw pillows at my head" or "n/BPDx turns the light on after I've gotten into bed" altho "n/BPDx threw our dog into the wall" got some interest because many people have empathy for animals. Point being that I had so much hyper-vigilance for so long (including childhood), I didn't have a whole lot of bandwidth to tolerate boundary violations. My nervous system was not over-responding given what I had lived through, but when new people came into our orbit, they saw such a small, distorted view. I don't know whether to thankful or aggrieved that n/BPDx could not mask for very long. Eventually the sunlight became to illuminate his behaviors, although it did take time (and money).

It is hard to summarize these experiences in small bits because it's the whole that we are trying to navigate surviving.

Plus, "n/BPDx would look at me with dead/shark eyes" has only ever made sense to people who have seen that same menacing, flat look, usually in their own PD relationships, and when I think on it, only here on this board have people understood.

I don't know if controlling the narrative is the best way to frame it because when it comes down to it, what it's really about is your well-being and how you feel getting up day after day wondering what fresh hell is set to meet you.

What made me think of this is the sheer volume of so-called normal life events, like a new fiance coming into the picture, someone who wants to develop a bond with S9 -- you are adjusting to what is considered ordinary by people who don't have to live with PD behaviors.

Understandably, you want the professionals to help set reasonable boundaries, but I get the sense that the professionals also want you to meet the nonsense half way, meaning give in, which is re-traumatizing for you, especially in light of what has occurred with D13 (proof of how bad things can get).

You have this bench of spectators who are probably thinking "uBPDxw is a trainwreck, so mama-wolf needs to xyz" (as though you haven't tried or as though they would be able to do better  ). This is the dynamic I grew up with, and I know it's toxic. My family treated uBPD brother as someone we all had to make sacrifices for in order to appease him. And that emboldened him to become the de facto tyrant running our family.

I'm trying to think through ways you can get the professionals to advocate for you and of course, so much of this comes down to the details of who is involved, how they think. But it also comes down to you feeling strong enough to manage things, and assuming there is PTSD involved (which people are not very empathetic to in the family law system, in my experience), I wonder if there is a third way.

I don't know if I'm describing this well. I certainly don't want to make it seem like you would let things slide while hoping for recovery. It's more like a micro point in the overall plan in place, one small piece that you have control over, that could be a game changer for you (if you can find the right person, right treatment...all "ifs").

You are so much more powerful in the seat of your soul than any of this nonsense. What you have been through and survived is a testament to this. The new fiance introduces new challenges, but none you haven't navigated before. You have all these people involved and have managed to get everyone to come to the same conclusions -- you are the safe, healthy parent.

My hope for you is that your nervous system can receive that message. At least help err on the side that you have navigated a really hard situation and transformed it into a manageable one, and that this new development could benefit from your efforts (there is proof!). But in my experience, it isn't talk therapy that helps with that.

Curious to hear your thoughts on this. You've accomplished heroic achievements, mama-wolf. You really have. Yet I can imagine that this knowledge seems flimsy given that you are still in what probably feels like battle mode. Even a small turn of the dial might help, even if it's to restore precious strength.

It feels quite dramatic to bring the full force of your calm(er) nervous system to a boundary moment, especially if you have been in defense mode for so long it's hard to remember what security and safety feels like.

Separate thought:

The note you'd like to send is good. It also feels like you are still coming from a place of high nervous activity. I say that as someone who tracks this way myself. Dialing down my nervous system is a daily, ongoing goal.

My sense is that less is more:

"Do you agree it's best to allow S9 to adjust as slowly as possible? My concern is that adult concern may take precedent over what is best for him in the long run. Focusing on small changes may inconvenience us in the short term but be better for S9 in the long term. FT can be a helpful moderating influence so let's table these items until we've had a chance to meet."

She will always pull you off the field into a new game. I don't know if this is the best way to respond (involving FT) -- it's more about having a pat answer that says, Cool -- you're up to the same old tricks. Here's the same old response.

[mama-wolf]

I'm curious if you have done anything like that, or if anyone has suggested body-based healing work for you?

My T is an experienced trauma therapist, though I don't think she specifically does much somatic experiencing work.  At least, she hasn't suggested it for me yet.  Once or twice she has tried to get me to identify where sensations might be showing up in my body, but I'm so disconnected from my feelings it doesn't get very far.  She does both the day-to-day helping me with challenges work as well as deeper work from my own childhood, processing my marriage and subsequent trauma, and managing current symptoms, etc.  There are times when the focus is more on giving my nervous system a chance to calm down vs. the other work.

I'm not against the body work, but also not quite sure I'm in a place to start it yet.

You are so much more powerful in the seat of your soul than any of this nonsense. What you have been through and survived is a testament to this. The new fiance introduces new challenges, but none you haven't navigated before. You have all these people involved and have managed to get everyone to come to the same conclusions -- you are the safe, healthy parent.

My hope for you is that your nervous system can receive that message. At least help err on the side that you have navigated a really hard situation and transformed it into a manageable one, and that this new development could benefit from your efforts (there is proof!). But in my experience, it isn't talk therapy that helps with that.

Thank you for this, and all the rest of your message.  I have definitely felt more overwhelmed and activated lately, which really spins up the inner critic.  The reassurance and encouragement is much appreciated.

mw