at edge of leaving - but having trouble with final step

[VIDEO: "What is parental alienation?"]

My marriage is on the verge of ending today - largely from my end - but I'm struggling so hard to keep my inner strength up and not get lost in my uPWDw's disordered thoughts.

More recent background - we spent a month this summer in her home country, where I've also lived.  It was independently stressful - her father needed lots of care and 3 of us got significant cases of Covid.  She was probably more stable than usual most of the days.  But we had some horrific breaks on her end, and this time around, I am not able to bounce back from them like I've done for 18 years before (they have gotten significantly worse in the past 4-5 years).  There was lots of divorce talk on her end, and for the first time, I did not ignore it all but started asking hard questions about how she thought this was going to get better or heal.  I did not expect her to answer but I'm learning that I need to do some of this for my own sake - what's the line between JADE-ing and standing up for yourself after almost two decades of emotional chaos?

She had to go back to her home country to take care of her father more.  So she's across the world.  It was also very smooth until yesterday, which descended into chaos based on one line in one message.  Typical stuff.  

I also saw my therapist yesterday who is getting adamant that I leave.  My best friend is saying the same.  I have trouble judging this because her behavior is nothing like I read about here or explicitly abusive.  It's more emotional abuse by siege or chaos.  

Anyway, I responded to her later messages by acknowledging that I've pulled back and that I agree with her suggestion that we spend time apart.  She took this as a break up message.  I refused to let her yell at me.  She's talking about staying there, though also hinting she is suicidal (she's too sophisticated to threaten outright).  

I also went to a CoDa meeting for the first time Sunday and it was very powerful for me.  They gave me this plastic "welcome" chip, and I'm holding onto it for deal life.  It's silly but I have a feeling this is an important piece of plastic in my life.

I've refused to talk to her today though she has tried to rope me back in.  

I do want to separate.  The kids have been so relaxed with her gone.  I do not want to put up with the crazymaking any more.  But I'm finding it impossible to write her and say "yes, stay there."

Any advice or phrasing to get me over that hump?  She may come back anyway, and then I will have to deal with that - as she is refusing to live independently here in the US.  But I'm trying to "dare greatly" this week and push through.

[FirstSteps]

My marriage is on the verge of ending today - largely from my end - but I'm struggling so hard to keep my inner strength up and not get lost in my uPWDw's disordered thoughts.

More recent background - we spent a month this summer in her home country, where I've also lived.  It was independently stressful - her father needed lots of care and 3 of us got significant cases of Covid.  She was probably more stable than usual most of the days.  But we had some horrific breaks on her end, and this time around, I am not able to bounce back from them like I've done for 18 years before (they have gotten significantly worse in the past 4-5 years).  There was lots of divorce talk on her end, and for the first time, I did not ignore it all but started asking hard questions about how she thought this was going to get better or heal.  I did not expect her to answer but I'm learning that I need to do some of this for my own sake - what's the line between JADE-ing and standing up for yourself after almost two decades of emotional chaos?

She had to go back to her home country to take care of her father more.  So she's across the world.  It was also very smooth until yesterday, which descended into chaos based on one line in one message.  Typical stuff.  

I also saw my therapist yesterday who is getting adamant that I leave.  My best friend is saying the same.  I have trouble judging this because her behavior is nothing like I read about here or explicitly abusive.  It's more emotional abuse by siege or chaos.  

Anyway, I responded to her later messages by acknowledging that I've pulled back and that I agree with her suggestion that we spend time apart.  She took this as a break up message.  I refused to let her yell at me.  She's talking about staying there, though also hinting she is suicidal (she's too sophisticated to threaten outright).  

I also went to a CoDa meeting for the first time Sunday and it was very powerful for me.  They gave me this plastic "welcome" chip, and I'm holding onto it for deal life.  It's silly but I have a feeling this is an important piece of plastic in my life.

I've refused to talk to her today though she has tried to rope me back in.  

I do want to separate.  The kids have been so relaxed with her gone.  I do not want to put up with the crazymaking any more.  But I'm finding it impossible to write her and say "yes, stay there."

Any advice or phrasing to get me over that hump?  She may come back anyway, and then I will have to deal with that - as she is refusing to live independently here in the US.  But I'm trying to "dare greatly" this week and push through.

[Manic Miner]

Can you do something to procrastinate a bit?

Like - Take care for your father, I will be alright with the kids, don't worry.

They are completely delusional and even think you'll gonna miss them. While you would if they were normal, they are unable to see the cause and effect and the chaos they create.

Don't ever think they will see that, because they feel bad and are preoccupied with themselves.

[FirstSteps]

That's good advice.  I have this desire for some final decision.  But I could easily say she should extend her stay, we're ok, we can talk later.

Of course, you're also right about the self-centeredness.  It's just going to happen again.  But maybe this is not about absolute thinking.  If I can extend my time without her, good things will likely happen.

[ForeverDad]

I also saw my therapist yesterday who is getting adamant that I leave.  My best friend is saying the same.  I have trouble judging this...

What I'm prompted to suggest - though you've surely heard this before - is to step outside yourself and look at your life objectively.  By that I mean...

What if your dear friend told you he was experiencing what you live through on an almost daily basis, not abuse but endless emotional chaos and disparagement.  It's more emotional abuse by siege or chaos.  He and the kids have been so relaxed with her gone.  He does not want to put up with the crazymaking any more.

So... what advice would you share with your friend, from that perspective?

Look from the outside, in.  That is objectivity.

[livednlearned]

I have this desire for some final decision

That's understandable, especially after 18 years of emotional abuse, sabotage, chaos. It's a lot to go through, for a long time.

Attending a CoDA meeting is a sign you want to be healthy and feel better. Sometimes when we start to take the small steps, we want to sprint to the finish line.

Most of the divorces that do better than terrible tend to have some pre-planning involved. You have a gift in that she is living elsewhere. It gives you time to talk to an attorney, to put together a plan, look at finances (if you haven't done these things already).

You can make the final decision and make a plan at the same time. It's ok to keep things to yourself as you figure out where to go from here.

Being codependent, you may find it hard to live with duplicity in your emotions and actions -- your own sense of normal boundaries may be skewed.

It's ok to hold information close to your chest. The goal is not to hurt her, it's to help the family land with less chaos than if you show all your cards right away.

Be kind to yourself as you go through these next stages. The only rush you feel should be the one to take care of yourself.

It's very normal to go through many different types of feelings, to doubt yourself, to feel grief about change, even if it's better in the long run.  

[GaGrl]

Have you spoken to a lawyer about what your options are before she gets back?

Are your children citizens of her country, with dual passports? Or could she get citizenship/passports for them easily? And is her country a member of the Hague Convention? (For example, Japan is not, and custody is extremely difficult to obtain if the children physically are in Japan.)

My husband's ex (uBPD/NPD) frequently threatened to return to her country, which would have been financially advantageous on a U.S. alimony. But when she visited, she fought with her family and was soon ready to return to the U.S. But the threat of taking the children was always there, and very concerning.

[Sluggo]

My story is similar. My wife was from a different country and we were about 12 years into our marriage and we wanted the kids to spend time in her home country for the year. At the time,  our daughter needed medical attention so we decided for me to stay back and her to go and take the kids to spend the year there.

That year that I was separated from my wife was a very transformative year. I realized how much stress I was under coming home each night. I also realize that if she went into a rage , I could just hang up the phone. I also could unplug the phone. I did not have to take the abuse.

 I read the book codependent no more during that and it opened up my eyes to do this dysfunction I was in and I participated in.  I started feeling better day by day as the months gone on. I reached out to old friendships that I had let go.  I love the feeling of knowing I was in control of our dialogue, meaning I could stop the conversation at any point.

I did not divorce immediately when she got back, but it started me on a path which I realize did not have to be full of pain, put downs, and having to feel like a loser. 

Sluggo

[FirstSteps]

Thanks to everyone for the thoughtful responses.  They do me a world of good.  I've been caught up for a year trying to make the relationship work by working on myself, holding my boundaries, not let her disordered thoughts get to me, and so on.  It is a huge relief to think that some people quietly decided to walk away (even if the divorce is not then calm).

@ForeverDad - that's a brutal exercise for me because the answer is so obvious.  My therapist for the first time yesterday got mad at me because I couldn't answer why I was staying, not why I was staying for her or what I hoped she would do.  I'd even thought I'd washed all that out.  Nope, not at all.

I have not talked to a lawyer yet but will on Monday.  She wants to use a mediator so I will look for that but also talk to my own lawyer.  The kids do have citizenship of her country - and it is a member of the Hague Convention.  I also have citizenship there now so have a lot of rights.  And my kids are teens who are very wary of her.  So I'm not worried she would get them on a plane.  I do have all the passports from both countries with me - I made sure she wasn't taking them when she left.

I have gotten better at holding my emotions close but I'm not doing a perfect job now.  She got me on the hook for a Messenger argument today, and I end up "defining" things and trying to come to agreements.  I'm giving up too much info, though I also am in danger of walking back my desire to separate out of pure frustration at how she is manipulating the situation.  I'm trying to breathe through that.

@Sluggo - I can only dream of having a year like that.  Just two weeks was transformative for many of those reasons.  I helped an old friend I've reconnected with move some furniture and he was brutally honest about what he sees.  I've seen my parents more (they are dysfunctional themselves but it's symbolic).  I was able to go to the CoDA meeting.

Anyway, my update is this.  She is now coming home as scheduled next week.  She does not want to be in the house with me.  I have agreed to go for a short "vacation" and then come back to the house until we can go to mediation.  She is now pounding away at her desire to move to her country.  I was always the one who wanted to move back but now I'm taking this away from her and betraying all our "agreements."  I'm ruining her life because she is not capable of being a single parent in the US and so on.  The thing is - I'm totally open to moving.  I'm actually applying for a job within my company that might require moving in the medium term.  But I'm not moving the family this fall in the middle of a separation/divorce.  

I also have probably been open to moving because I thought the impact of separation would be easier on her.  I have to cleanse that thought.  And I don't think it's best for my kids to move.  They're open to it in general and my daughter wants to go to college there, etc.  I clearly do not have great resolve on this one ...  but I just can't move now and am going to hold to that.  

[Sluggo]

Talk to lawyer before you leave house / take vacation.  I'm sure others will jump on with their experience but that could put you in a bad legal position with kids. 

Also, it is always  ok to change your mind. 

Sluggo

[ForeverDad]

Also, it is always OK to change your mind.

Yes, promises or prior statements are not "written in stone".  You are certainly allowed to reconsider past intentions, especially when you are better informed now.

I have not talked to a lawyer yet but will on Monday.  She wants to use a mediator so I will look for that but also talk to my own lawyer.

There are differences between a lawyer and a mediator.  A lawyer will look out for your best interests.  A good lawyer will not let you get a bad deal.  For example, even though society often pressures father to step back and let mothers take charge, if you have concerns about your spouse and her parenting, then your good lawyer will be determined to work to address your concerns.

It is wise also to interview a few lawyers and select the one that you believe is best for you.  Remember, you are the one hiring.  If you haven't already decided on a lawyer, then one good question for the interview is, "If you were facing my exact situation, which lawyers would you place at the top of your list to interview?"  Good lawyers know not everyone walking in the door will become a client.  We here in peer support need more than a form filer and a hand holder.

On the other hand a mediator has a goal to reach a settlement, typically somewhere in between what each parent is seeking.  A good mediator, when faced with one spouse who refuses to budge from unreasonable terms, will declare a mediation failed rather than pressure the other spouse to cave in to all the demands.

Most divorces start with a temp order and then require mediation attempts.  Most mediation attempts by our members here failed.  That was my experience.  My court ordered 3 attempts but we had an impasse (actually on several issues) at our first session.  So mediation failed and we just proceeded to the next steps.  So don't count on mediation succeeding, do try in good faith of course but don't "gift away" anything that is important to you or the children.

[Cat Familiar]

In addition, another plus about interviewing a number of attorneys is that once you’ve talked with them, your spouse cannot engage their services. 

[HittyDoll]

Hi, echoing a previous comment, don't move out or "vacation" when she returns. Do stay in a separate bedroom and talk to a lawyer. She can claim abandonment if you move out and that might be unfairly legally messy for you.

I also just want to say that your story resonates with me a lot. I am super familiar with the long-term verbal and emotional abuse you're experiencing. It isn't physical but it is so damaging and hurtful, and it gets worse. You're not crazy, you're not hypersensitive, and you deserve better.

Naming what she's doing is an important first step and talking about it with others is another important step, in my experience, so I'm really impressed at the steps you've taken already. For a long time, I thought I was shouldering bad treatment to protect my children. It turns out they saw and felt way more than I ever believed they did; they wanted me to stand up for myself and show them it was OK to say "Stop, this isn't healthy." Once I did so, I've watched them find their own ways to do the same.

My oldest child even told me: "You don't have to set yourself on fire to keep everyone else warm." I wish I had listened sooner, for their sake and mine. Hang in there.

[FirstSteps]

Thanks to everyone for the legal advice.  I am no longer going away - I've cut it to day trips and so on.  Maybe one night camping likely with one of the kids.

I need the reminders as she is currently trying hard to keep me from leaving - on her best behavior, promising therapy, applying for jobs, the whole bit.  And she's also extremely helpless in terms of big decisions (though the most controlling on day to day things in the house) so I don't see her ever actually calling a lawyer.  But I also know she's in PTSD groups that are likely cheering her on and giving her all sorts of legal advice.

@HittyDoll - that quote hits home hard.  My teens have started saying similar things to me, though they more often focus on how much they dislike how their mother acts.  This has only happened because I stepped up as a parent and prioritized them.  It's the one thing I've done really well during this process - the rest is a slow motion grind seemingly towards freedom but not linearly.  I too was staying explicitly to buffer them and give them a family.  Now I've seen first hand that a week of calm is worth everything to them and worth fighting to give them.