Custody ask in petition for dissolution of marriage

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Tomorrow I plan to tell my stbx that I am going to file the petition for dissolution of marriage and start the process.

She probably knows it's coming, or something to that effect. About 2-3 weeks ago she asked me to consider separation. It seemed a timely opportunity to finally get back to her and say let's talk. We have an appointment scheduled with our family therapist specifically for this conversation. The therapist knows what it's about and is ready and willing to help.

Soon after we have that conversation, my attorney will file the petition and start the process.

In the draft petition, it has me asking for joint legal and physical custody. She had said it's easier that way, and that it's rare that anyone will get more than joint. Perhaps part of it is thinking that if I start out less antagonistic of stbx then maybe it will be easier.

But a significant reason why I'm pursuing divorce is because of the way my uBPDstbxw treats our D11.

And just in the last few days, stbx yelled and berated D for most of a 20-30 minute car ride. D told her school counselor about the episode, and the counselor then called me to ask for more context and let me know that she was seriously considering reporting it to CPS. That day was a rare all-day meeting for me in the office, followed by a work dinner. On my way home I learned that stbx never bothered to offer D any dinner. Again, blaming it on D for apparently saying she didn't want anything from her mom.

D at this point wants almost nothing to do with her mom. Last week, despite knowing nothing of my divorce preparations, D went online and researched custody. Stbx continues to blame D for their poor relationship (lots of projection there), and told me several times that she knows D will want to go with me if we separate.

When sbtx is in her somewhat normal state, she can be ok. But her state of mind is unpredictable. And when she rages, she sure rages.

I responded to my lawyer with those two concerns: D is not always safe with her mom, and (as I've learned here) if I start with joint custody would it be harder to change later on? I'm waiting for her response.

In the meantime, those of you with experience with this or who have seen enough of what others have gone through, what would you do?

[zaqsert]

Tomorrow I plan to tell my stbx that I am going to file the petition for dissolution of marriage and start the process.

She probably knows it's coming, or something to that effect. About 2-3 weeks ago she asked me to consider separation. It seemed a timely opportunity to finally get back to her and say let's talk. We have an appointment scheduled with our family therapist specifically for this conversation. The therapist knows what it's about and is ready and willing to help.

Soon after we have that conversation, my attorney will file the petition and start the process.

In the draft petition, it has me asking for joint legal and physical custody. She had said it's easier that way, and that it's rare that anyone will get more than joint. Perhaps part of it is thinking that if I start out less antagonistic of stbx then maybe it will be easier.

But a significant reason why I'm pursuing divorce is because of the way my uBPDstbxw treats our D11.

And just in the last few days, stbx yelled and berated D for most of a 20-30 minute car ride. D told her school counselor about the episode, and the counselor then called me to ask for more context and let me know that she was seriously considering reporting it to CPS. That day was a rare all-day meeting for me in the office, followed by a work dinner. On my way home I learned that stbx never bothered to offer D any dinner. Again, blaming it on D for apparently saying she didn't want anything from her mom.

D at this point wants almost nothing to do with her mom. Last week, despite knowing nothing of my divorce preparations, D went online and researched custody. Stbx continues to blame D for their poor relationship (lots of projection there), and told me several times that she knows D will want to go with me if we separate.

When sbtx is in her somewhat normal state, she can be ok. But her state of mind is unpredictable. And when she rages, she sure rages.

I responded to my lawyer with those two concerns: D is not always safe with her mom, and (as I've learned here) if I start with joint custody would it be harder to change later on? I'm waiting for her response.

In the meantime, those of you with experience with this or who have seen enough of what others have gone through, what would you do?

[livednlearned]

It seems like you could learn something new when you announce your plans to divorce.

My experience is that even when a spouse says let's separate, it means, "you've already abandoned me, so I'm punishing you, but for god's sakes don't abandon me."

How does the legal process work where you live?

In my county, mediation was strongly encouraged. My high-conflict ex and I were able to agree on 95 percent in mediation, with one item left outstanding. The mediator wrote up a temporary custody order that was in effect permanent. The way judges often treat "temporary" orders is that if it was good enough in the beginning, it should be good enough going forward. To change it typically requires something "substantive," which is open to interpretation.

The one outstanding item (I knew joint legal wouldn't work) was written as, "Both parties agree to x, y, and z but could not reach agreement on item c, which will be resolved before a judge at a later date."

Then things sat there until we hit our first item of legal custody (agreeing on a course of treatment prescribed by our son's psychiatrist).

I'm wondering if you could propose something conditional in your *temporary* order so that you address the typical bait and switch of that word, and actually make it temporary.

Meaning, perhaps you suggest hiring a forensic child psychologist to work with D11 during the first 3 months post-divorce, and see if that person can make a recommendation to the court about whether the provisional arrangement is in the best interests of the child. Some courts have a north star something or other that explicitly acknowledges custody being in the best interests of the child.

It's true in many divorces that custody issues are one and done, but try to think of this as a multi-step process.

It probably is less common for a dad to get more than what you propose, but I also think there is wiggle room for many of our high-conflict cases.

And I would not wager on the volatility of her behaviors in response to anything you do. Even people without BPD can develop BPD behaviors in a divorce. It's admirable that you are thinking of ways to minimize conflict, but don't let that interfere with what you think is best for D11. That doesn't mean you have to come out swinging, but it does mean thinking about this process as multiple steps so that you increase chances of keeping D11 safe.

If I could do my divorce over, one thing I would do, knowing what I know now, is to set up reasonable solutions at the beginning, as a way to start shining light on problematic behaviors so the court was privy to those actions.

For example, maybe asking for graduated visitation contingent on both parents participating in parenting classes, or anger management classes for n/BPDx (it made sense given the complaint).

Essentially, creating the conditions for me as the stable parent to demonstrate substantive issues were making the temporary order untenable.

For you, it would communicate to the court from the get-go that you see serious problems in the marriage that impact D11, and instead of wait and see, you want to propose reasonable therapeutic interventions at the beginning.

Then, when new issues come up, you can say, "As discussed before, school counselor said this, therapist said this, we proposed this solution, and still stbx is abusing D11."

It's not the worst thing in the world if you can't be proactive from the start, but these divorces can drag on for eternity, costing us a lot of money and taking forever to do the right thing for our kids.

We have to be creative in how we use our lawyers -- they can be good lawyers and still not motivated to move things forward as quickly as we need them to for our kids.

[zaqsert]

Thank you, livednlearned! I'll come back later for more of a reply. In the meantime, just wanted to acknowledge and say thanks.

Also, thanks for the "Breathe" in your signature. I got to the bottom of your post, and at that point it it turns out I needed that reminder. It made me smile too.

[ForeverDad]

Recall that another member here, Yellowbutterfly, in recent weeks tried to be open and informative, telling her H she would be filing the next week for divorce.  He heard her "Nice Guy and Nice Gal" news and overreacted, he promptly had her kicked out of her leased apartment with a Temporary Order of Protection (TOP) and his own divorce papers.  Of course she didn't have your history of therapist and other professionals' involvement.  But still... be cautious about sharing information and plans that could enable your spouse to sabotage you.

In the draft petition, it has me asking for joint legal and physical custody. She had said it's easier that way, and that it's rare that anyone will get more than joint. Perhaps part of it is thinking that if I start out less antagonistic of stbx then maybe it will be easier.

I have a lot to say on this issue.  Been there, done that.  There is no single best answer.  My story... My domestic court defaulted to preference for mother even though at the time she was facing a Threat of DV charge in municipal court.  She had temp full custody and temp majority time during the months of separation and two years of divorce.

Custody Evaluator recommended starting out with equal Shared Parenting.  It was only on Trial Day we settled for that but my one condition to settle and not continue with the trial was that I would be the Parent responsible for school matters.  Why was that the one thing I held out for?  Because our kindergartner would go to MY school district and I would be the contact.  I no longer faced the risk of ex moving away and me having to follow her in order not to have my parenting limited.  (BTW eventually her school, after her latest incidents with them, gave me one day to register him in my school district, just weeks before the end of the school year.)

So I would recommend that whatever else the court decides to do, ask for school (and medical & mental health too) Decision Making or Tie Breaker status... DM, TB, or equivalent local terminology.

I've often advocated that from the very start, especially in court filings and appearances, that you don't hamstring yourself to limited or minimal parenting and custodial authority.  For example, "Your honor, I am convinced - and am seeking - substantial, even majority custody and parenting time for the interests of our child.  While the decision for how much involvement I am granted rests with the court, based on the history and current parental struggles, I am concerned that we may be back in court over the years to come to resolve continuing or new obstructions to my parenting to the detriment of our child."

If it come to this, make efforts to obtain the best (or least bad) outcome from the very first temporary order.  Why?  If you go soft - perhaps trying to appease and not inflame - and end up with a minimal temp order to start, you will have a hard time or more time getting it improved, thus put effort in to getting the best temp order from the start.

Last thought, do not share your legal strategies with the child's mother.  That would likely just enable her to invent counter strategies.

In your case, rather than focus on the possible future of continuing conflict as referenced in my quote above, you can choose to focus on your children's needs to reduce current conflict and distress.

And remember that old saying, "If you don't ask for it, you won't get it."  Yes, you want it worded to reduce risk of stbEx overreacting, but it needs to be there.  Even if court won't go so far as to grant you everything to start.

I found out that my temp order(s) were never updated or modified.  I lived with over 2 years with known parenting issues... and the lawyers, professionals and court studiously ignored addressing them until the final decree.

What does "joint legal and joint physical" mean?  Does it specify what the parenting schedule is?  Or could it still allow an all-too-common preference for mother to have majority parenting time?

[livednlearned]

Good points from FD.

Sometimes lawyers perpetuate the very bias they observe in court. If all lawyers say it's rare to get more custody, then that's exactly what happens.

There's research out there on this, something along the lines of: More women get more custody because more women ask for it in contested cases. In the cases where men contested custody, they were as likely to get more custody as women.

I'm not saying you should ask for full custody, because there probably isn't enough there to get full custody. It took me 4 years and a pissing match between my ex and the judge  .

I'm saying to look more closely at the bias she's perpetuating because you want to make sure your lawyer isn't on autopilot.

If you say to her, "Look -- I want to think about a creative way to get some sunlight on D11's situation. What can we do that won't break the bank? I'm not ready for a custody evaluation, but maybe we propose that (based on the school counselor's documentation) and use that as a bargaining chip to walk this back to something less scary for stbxw, like hiring a forensic child psychologist and making visitation contingent on that. Maybe we also propose that I'll pick three psychologists and she can select which one she wants us to retain. If she doesn't select one by day/date, then I can make the choice. Right now, D11 is afraid of her mom, so how about we propose temporary joint legal, joint physical, but we have D11 spend majority time with dad until parenting classes and anger management classes are complete.

Then, if that flies, you wait.

Mom isn't likely to do the classes, but you are. She may be too dysregulated to pick a psychologist, so you pick one. In the meantime, you set up a safe visitation schedule and get the attention of the judge, who will be trying to figure out why a mom who says she loves her kid won't just do the dumb class and get it over with.

Use the thing with the school counselor to draw attention to a red flag, one which has to do with D11's safety. You have some leverage here.

Does that make sense?

Your lawyer to mom's lawyer: "Hey look. School counselor almost called CPS. My client wants to do a custody evaluation which involves a psyche eval (MMPI-2). Mom has some issues school knows about."

Mom's lawyer response to your lawyer: "Yikes. My client wants to avoid the CE, and doesn't want the school counselor stuff to see the light of day."

Your lawyer: "Ok, if no CE, then forensic child psychologist with a 3 month visitation schedule where mom has no nights -- in the meantime, mom does anger management and parenting classes."

Mom's lawyer: "That's not fair. 50/50 custody, no CE. Ok to the psychologist.

Your lawyer: "We can't do 50/50 visitation until mom does the classes. She can pick the psychologist."

There are similar things she may be able to suggest in terms of joint legal/physical and how to keep that status truly temporary. Your lawyer will, if you let her, write the order up -- she can specify that joint legal is conditional, which is what my temporary order said.

That way, when it goes before the judge, there is a message that says, "Dad had concerns. He was willing to find agreeable solutions and make these suggestions. Here's all that has happened since then: BPD BPD BPD BPD. 

Push back a bit on your lawyer to make sure she is paying attention to you.

She works for you.

You're the boss.  

[zaqsert]

Thanks, ForeverDad and livednlearned!

[ForeverDad]

Understand that courts and those professionals working with the courts are extremely reluctant to specify a specific cause of the conflict or discord such as a "Personality Disorder". My court studiously ignored or discounted everything for years.  Until 8 years later when finally courts declared in writing mother was disparaging father and needed counseling.  However, court declined to order counseling since it didn't know whether mother could afford it.  (Um... some therapists do sliding scale.)

Likely your spouse isn't even diagnosed with a PD.  Most here never got one and even if there was a diagnosis, courts would say they'd need a professional to state how much it would impact the children and parenting.  Usually that means an in depth and expensive Custody Evaluation.

So our shared wisdom is to follow the court's pattern and instead focus on the documentation of poor, negative and problematic behaviors, especially those exposing or impacting the children to poor behaviors and abuse.

Focus too on the impact on the children and comparatively less so on how you're impacted.  If you write a list, give priority to impact on the children.  Court won't care on how much you're called bad names, but will sit up and be more inclined to take action if you're called bad names and worse in front of the kids.  Kids are the priority.  Court assumes you can take care of yourself overall.

[PeteWitsend]

Absolutely push for the right to designate the school, and push to be the primary custodian if possible. 

Be prepared to give a little on other minor issues (for example, an extra day of custody here or there), as long as you hold the trump cards: designating the school means you're essentially the primary residence.

What ForeverDad had the foresight to fight for, I didn't, and I've ended up in a bad situation where BPDxw moved far away (but still within the geographic restriction we stipulated in our divorce decree) making it much more of a challenge for me to see my D on my weekday school night, and Fridays of weekend possession.  Indeed, I'm lucky I can work from home now and my boss is flexible with workhours, because I would not be able to pick my daughter up otherwise, due to the travel time involved. 

I also received some lousy advice from my attorney: give your XW enough rope to hang herself, and then when she "screws up" you can go back and fight for more rights in court.

BUT... courts HATE reopening cases.  You really need to prove a lot in order to show that circumstances have fundamentally changed and you could not have foreseen the changes at the time. 

It's also more expensive to re-file and start an entirely new lawsuit to flip possession, so that's another hurdle, and of course the burden is entirely on the moving party to prove a change in circumstances necessary to justify flipping custody. 

Do not let a pwBPD hold any cards they can play to make your life difficult.  They will do them, even if it's not in your kid(s)' best interest, and a court won't care. 

[zaqsert]

Thank you, PeteWitsend and ForeverDad for your additional input.

Two updates:

1. Stbx asked for health insurance coverage for a year

Stbx's top concerns are finances (understandably) and health insurance. She is covered through my employer's plan. She recently started working part-time and does not get insurance through her employer. If she were to move to full-time, their coverage is not great.

She said she expected us to "separate" for a year and then divorce. She had gotten advice that this would help her keep health insurance. Turns out it was her therapist who advised this. Apparently she had not talked with a lawyer yet.

I agreed to ask for legal input on this. I sent the question to my lawyer last night. Now waiting for a response.

Aside from that, lots of predictable BPD-style responses and reactions. Nothing new, and you all know them all too well.

2. School reported stbx to CPS

After that recent event (at the top of this thread) when stbx apparently yelled at and berated D11 during a 20-30 minute car ride, D told her school counselor about it. The school counselor reported it to CPS. And this morning stbx got a visit from an officer to ask her about it.

He asked stbx about it and asked whether stbx struck D or threatened to. Stbx said no (I've never seen her do anything physical, "only" verbal and emotional). He asked about threats. Stbx said if D continues to disrespect her, she'll take away play dates and other activities. I heard about this through stbx, but apparently the officer laughed, said it sounded more like retaliation, and said he'll close the case.

She asked if I reported her to CPS. I said no. She assumed it had to be the school counselor then. She seemed to be starting to think through how to discuss this with D. It almost sounded as though she might tell D not to talk about what happens at home with anyone. I will keep an ear out for that because that is flat out NOT an ok request.

Stbx was pissed. She continues to insist all of this is due to D's behavior and to my enabling it and "not backing up" stbx. Same old stuff.

For context, last night stbx asked D a series of questions that devolved into yet another argument. Part way through that, D brought up the recent event in the car as an example of when stbx yelled at and was disrespectful to D. D got visibly emotional and said it felt terrifying (I think that's the word she used). Stbx said she hadn't yelled, she had only initially raised her voice.

I emailed my lawyer with an update. Waiting on a response to all of this.

[kells76]

Stbx asked for health insurance coverage for a year

Save this as leverage for getting something important for D's safety. Don't offer it right away, even if your L says "you can do it".

I heard about this through stbx, but apparently the officer laughed, said it sounded more like retaliation, and said he'll close the case.

Am I tracking with you, that your W told you the stuff in italics above? You didn't hear it from the school counselor, the officer, or CPS directly?

Is there a way for you to learn "straight from the horse's mouth" what actually got said? I'm concerned your W is minimizing what happened by "laughing it off" and painting a very different picture to you than how the convo actually went down.

[ForeverDad]

It's possible that COBRA may be available to stbEx since she is currently under the 'family' category.  It lasts up to 18 months but is full cost plus 2% for administration fees.  However, it needn't start until a divorce's final decree, as I understand it.  Yes, it's a lawyer question.

Kells76 made a good point, don't volunteer information, perhaps use it as leverage later if she never does find out for herself.  When you're heading toward divorce, share only required information such as bills, payments, parenting details.  Sadly, divorce is an adversarial process and when an acting-out PD is added then you need to be doubly cautious and careful.  If you approach it with a "full disclosure and fair" angle, then you're definitely sharing too much - TMI.

I heard about this through stbx, but apparently the officer laughed, said it sounded more like retaliation, and said he'll close the case.

How much are you to trust what a pwBPD says?  How far can you throw an anvil?  No disrespect to your spouse, but she was on the firing line so of course she will describe the encounter as no big deal.

As the other parent, you have an interest in the resolution.  Not that you would change the outcome, but you need to hear what the sources say.

More important, did the CPS investigator(s) speak with your daughter?  The representative should know that the mother cannot be automatically trusted, downplaying the alleged poor behavior is not surprising.  Likely the CPS guy already spoke to your daughter but in a neutral setting, such as at school.  (That's how my kindergartner was interviewed by my CPS, at school.)  That said, this is a teenager and shouting in anger in itself may not be considered sufficiently abusive to be actionable.  But it is still important to address and handle as a parent.

You need to ensure your daughter knows that she is not to hide serious incidents.  And don't just tell her once.  This probably needs to be a periodic reminder.

[I Am Redeemed]

Was this a police officer or a CPS worker? There's a difference.

Generally, CPS will speak to both parents when a report is made.

Emotional abuse, unfortunately, is often "not actionable" when it comes to CPS and it depends on the state, the agency, and then the individual worker as to how it was handled.

You could try calling CPS and asking to find out who was assigned to investigate the case and see if you can talk to them.

[Turkish]

You could try calling CPS and asking to find out who was assigned to investigate the case and see if you can talk to them.

I would do this. It shows that you're diligent. Be wary not to volunteer information though. CPS is by design not on the side of parents.