Proposing to girlfriend-- should I get kids 'buy in' first before proposing...

[Family Court Strategies: When Your Partner Has BPD OR NPD Traits.]

I have been dating a women for about 19 months.  I am wanting to propose.  I know she is waiting for me to propose also.  Kids like her and seem to get along.  Girlfriend and I do not live together.   

Kids exbpd mom lives with a guy for last 3 years.  Kids spend all time with me except 30 days in summer go with their mom.  We have been divorced for 6 years. 

Do I gain the kids buy in before asking- 16yr, 13, 12, and 8.  I think they should be ok, but what are your thoughts.

Thoughts?  What was your experience?

Sluggo 

[Sluggo]

I have been dating a women for about 19 months.  I am wanting to propose.  I know she is waiting for me to propose also.  Kids like her and seem to get along.  Girlfriend and I do not live together.   

Kids exbpd mom lives with a guy for last 3 years.  Kids spend all time with me except 30 days in summer go with their mom.  We have been divorced for 6 years. 

Do I gain the kids buy in before asking- 16yr, 13, 12, and 8.  I think they should be ok, but what are your thoughts.

Thoughts?  What was your experience?

Sluggo 

[kells76]

Hey Sluggo, good to see you again. It's good that you're thinking through options ahead of time.

I might make a distinction between getting the kids' "buy-in", vs getting "feedback" from them &/or "letting them know and being open to their perspective".

A concern that comes to my mind in these situations is that there can be tacit expectations on the kids about how they should respond. I'm definitely not saying this is going on with you guys, more sharing my observations on how I've seen it go. For example, a parent/stepparent, when wanting to marry a new partner, might say to the kids "Kids, I'm going to ask your mom to marry me, but I'm also going to respect you by asking you too -- will you take me as your new stepdad?"

Stuff like that can seem caring, respectful, treating the kids as "grown up", etc, but what it can really do is put the kids in a corner. They know Mom and Mom's Boyfriend want to get married, and so if the kids say anything honest in response to the question, like "Um, actually No", then Mom will be sad and it's the kid's fault. So those kinds of questions aren't really honest questions, because the adults are going to do what they want, and are asking that question to seem like "the good guy who really cared about what the kids thought".

This is basically how it went down with DH's kids' mom and stepdad -- from what I recall, he "asked the kids to marry their mom"... the kids were like 4 & 6. I mean, what can they say? No? There was a tacit expectation to "make mom and Stepdad happy" and to play along with a dishonest question (by dishonest question I mean, there was no chance that if the kids said "Actually I'm not ready for you to get married", that the adults would've slowed down).

So, if it were me, I'd steer away from any kind of question that frames the kids as having a say or a choice in it -- I'm assuming they don't. And, in fact, it isn't healthy developmentally for kids to "have a say" in adult romantic relationships.

But I also don't think you're doing that. I'm guessing that when you say "get their buy-in" it's more getting feedback from them? That can work healthily as long as you're really clear about what's going on -- that you're not asking the kids "if they are OK with it" as that opens a door for them to say "No, I'm not OK with it" and (a) they have power over adult relationships they shouldn't, and (b) if the adult relationship still proceeds, they may feel "tricked".

I'm guessing that what you would be talking about with the kids would be phrased more like:

"Kids, I want to let you know that Girlfriend and I are talking about getting married. This wouldn't happen right away, it would probably be in about one year -- so, around 2024. One change that would happen is that she would start to live in this house, instead of in her house. What wouldn't change is that all of us would still live here and keep the rooms we have, and go to the same schools, and do the same activities. I'm wondering how you're feeling as you hear about that change that's going to happen?"

And then follow up questions/comments, like "Even if you don't have any questions for me now, or things you want me to know about, you might have questions or feelings later that you want to tell me, and I would love to hear about what you think and feel." Of course, tweaking it to match your kids' ages -- your 16YO can probably handle a more grown-up conversation than the rest, where you talk about resources your 16YO can seek out for support, people to talk to, counseling alone or with you if desired, etc.

I guess overall, if it were me, I'd frame it as -- kids, here is a thing that is going to happen in our lives, and here are some facts about it: when it'll happen, what change you'll notice, and what won't change. What feelings and thoughts about that change do you want me to know?

I wouldn't phrase anything anywhere close to them having a say in if it happens or not. Keep your hands on the steering wheel of this one, with a huge open door for them to "give feedback about their feelings" and to ask questions.

How do you think they'd do with that approach?

Are there other concerns with a more "announcement" type approach (like, is there still enough conflict with their mom that they might pull a "you never let me decide anything, I'm running away to Mom's" move)?

Are any/all of them in counseling?

Hope that's helpful food for thought. And, congratulations! 

kells76

[Sluggo]

GREAT GREAT FEEDBACK Kells!  Thank you so much. 

I love your perspective.  You are exactly right how that can be confusing and not an honest question to ask.  I like your reframing.  That is great...   Thank you so much for jumping on and responding to this one. 

about therapists:  My youngest has a therapist.  Trying to get my daughter 12yr scheduled. 

Thank you!

Sluggo

[kells76]

Great to hear that your 8YO and soon 12YO will have counseling -- smart move.

This would be a really normal thing to bring up in a parent check-in session with those counselors. You can share how you plan to approach the announcement, and ask for feedback on what is age-appropriate and honest. Even if it's just talking with your 8YO's counselor, you could still say "Hey, that sounds good for 8YO -- can I ask, I'm thinking of saying XYZ instead of ABC to our teens. What do you think, does that sound ok, or what would you recommend?" Definitely leverage that professional connection for insight/confirmation of a smart path forward -- just because s/he is only your 8YO's counselor doesn't mean you can't ask about your other kids in this case after all, it's a family dynamic that your 8YO is in.

You can think too about if your kids would do better hearing the announcement all together, or if your older kids might want to hear first, or what. In our situation, SD16 does NOT do well if she feels like she has to "keep a secret" from SD14, so telling them stuff separately isn't helpful. They are also fairly close in age, which is different for your set.

What timeline are you and your GF thinking about for a wedding?

[Turkish]

First, congratulations!

Second, sage feedback from kells76.

Third, it's an expanded version of what my T told me years ago: who the adults chose to have a relationship with isn't the kids' business. They don't get a vote.

[Sluggo]

Thank you Turkish

[ForeverDad]

I'll frame my thoughts concerning your kids' mother.  Yes, she's had her new adult relationship for a few years.  And you got a happy surprise that she abdicated much of her parenting.  Good for you and even better for the kids.

How much does your ex know about this friendship?  I wonder whether getting engaged will trigger her "mother knows best" or "only I can be their mother" perceptions and ramp up some conflict or attempts to regain some parenting.  She may not see herself being in an established relationship the same as you also starting a relationship.  You know, that old perspective, "Rules for thee but not for me."  I'm not saying she will but you can be alert to any changes there.

The kids have an established custody and parenting pattern with you in charge.  If she suddenly decides to claw back parenting, you have the weight of recent parenting on your side - parenting that is working for all.

[Sluggo]

FD,

How much does your ex know about this friendship?  I wonder whether getting engaged will trigger her "mother knows best" or "only I can be their mother" perceptions and ramp up some conflict or attempts to regain some parenting.  She may not see herself being in an established relationship the same as you also starting a relationship.  You know, that old perspective, "Rules for thee but not for me."  I'm not saying she will but you can be alert to any changes there.

Thank you for your response...

Mom knows quite a bit I believe.  She once referenced in her in a sacarstic tone with me this summer about 'my girlfriend'.  But also I have had 2 cps allegations since August so that could be because of that. 

It puts stress on my relationship with girlfriend through a fear of what could happen.  That has been topics of conversation. 

Sluggo 

[kells76]

Being a stepmom in a high conflict divorce situation is difficult. I'd recommend that she see a counselor if she isn't already, and that you guys strongly consider a couples counselor as well.

High conflict step parenting can take it out of you in ways you don't always notice at first. I am ~10 years in, and a lot of stuff is catching up to me that I'd tried to just move past back when it happened. It can take a toll on the marriage relationship as well.

Not to say there are no good times -- just to offer a point of view. Being in a position of caring so deeply for the kids, yet having essentially zero say in major areas of life, is really hard and not necessarily intuitive to navigate. Highly recommend getting a good counselor for the long haul. We've been seeing our MC for probably 9 years -- he also saw H & the kids' mom back in the day, and Stepdad during his first marriage, so we are "lucky" in that our MC is well aware of the dynamics.

Another thought is that she is welcome to open an account here as long as you don't post in each others' threads. So, that's an option if she would like support for non-standard stepparenting.

ANYway! She must be quite the gal and I wish you guys lots of peace and happiness. It is possible to learn to cope with the stress.

 Let us know how the talk with the kids goes;

kells76