Boundaries or Avoiding?

[Before you can make things better, you have to stop making them worse...]

My focus has been to work on myself and building healthy boundaries.

One way I do that is to leave the room when my uBPDw starts to berate or bully me.

Another way to do it, with guidance from my T, is to only engage in sit down meetings if they aren't an avenue for uBPDw to admonish, belittle, or shame me.

When I opt out, I do it calmly with clarity about how we talk and treat each other.

The rub?

My uBPDw says I'm avoiding hard conversation and refusing to communicate with her. Recently, she accused me of having a pattern of avoidance that is making things worse.

I'm concern she'll use me walking out of the room against me in the future.

Thoughts?

[LifewithEase]

My focus has been to work on myself and building healthy boundaries.

One way I do that is to leave the room when my uBPDw starts to berate or bully me.

Another way to do it, with guidance from my T, is to only engage in sit down meetings if they aren't an avenue for uBPDw to admonish, belittle, or shame me.

When I opt out, I do it calmly with clarity about how we talk and treat each other.

The rub?

My uBPDw says I'm avoiding hard conversation and refusing to communicate with her. Recently, she accused me of having a pattern of avoidance that is making things worse.

I'm concern she'll use me walking out of the room against me in the future.

Thoughts?

[GaGrl]

As long as you are stating clearly WHY you are leaving the conversation, you aren't avoiding her -- you are holding your boundary.

"When we can have a conversation without [blame, name-calling, raised voices...], I am very open to that conversation."

Repeat ad nauseam infinitum.

[LifewithEase]

Thanks GaGirl

My irrational, or maybe fair, fear is that in the future she will say, especially in a divorce situation or used against me with my children:

- he left the room dozens of times unwilling to communicate

Context: my uBPDw has throughout the relationship of +10 year threatened divorce, separation, taking away the kids, etc.

What do I do with this?

[SaltyDawg]

If you think divorce is in your future. 

RECORD.  RECORD.  RECORD.

Use you cell phone to record what is going on, including the rages, and irrational behavior.

Use the lowest video quality to maximize your recording time.  Backup daily to an external drive, and a cloud drive [in case one is compromised by your pwBPD].

When your pwBPD is raging, cooly and calmly say, "If you continue to yell [be irrational], I will go to the other room until you calm down [can be reasoned with] -- I am not abandoning you, I am doing this so something stupid doesn't happen".  Walk to the other room.  If they follow you to the other room, similar message...  "If you continue to yell [be irrational], I will go out for a drive/walk/run/etc. until you calm down [can be reasoned with] -- I am not abandoning you, I am doing this so I can clear my head"

That way when it does go to the court room, it will be much easier for you, and less expensive fees from your attorney too.

You also express your willingness to communicate in a rational calm manner, which is better for the children anyways literally and in the eyes of the court.  There are many benefits to this, check with your attorney.

However, be careful, not to show triggering behavior on your part, or anything that could work against you.

[Outdorenthusiast]

100% agree with all said here
1) Keep the boundary in a respectful calm way that makes you feel respected and safe
2) Explain you are not abandoning
3) Explain under which condition/when the dialogue can resume (not avoiding in perpetuity)
4) Document, document, document.  Audio, visual, or even journaling is better than nothing.

[ForeverDad]

Another:  Don't delete old documentation, especially if it proves you're not the one misbehaving.  You can never protect yourself too much.

I can't count how many times I documented to myself ex's rage incidents and then later - when I had been somehow convinced life was better and I didn't need them any more - I foolishly deleted them.  And all too soon I regretted doing so.

[babyducks]

I'm concern she'll use me walking out of the room against me in the future.

it's a reasonable concern LifeWithEase.    it will probably come up, some way or another.     Its part and parcel of how pwBPD process the interactions of life, if the immediate emotional need isn't being addressed to soothe the BPD, that's often considered as 'abusive'.

you mentioned that when you opt out, you do it calmly and with clarity.    do you also state when and under what conditions you will return to the conversation?   what type of language do you use when you exit a fraught conversation?

to illustrate a different perspective, I wouldn't advocate using the language below.    let me explain why:

When your pwBPD is raging, cooly and calmly say, "If you continue to yell [be irrational],

Maintaining your calm and cool is very important.  that's a good approach.   the goal is to de-escalate the situation, which relies on your emotional state as much as your wife.    from my experience I would not use any words like 'if you continue to yell or be irrational'.   whether they are accurate or not doesn't matter, if the goal is to de-escalate the emotional intensity and have a productive conversation using phrases that can be or are blaming and shaming does not help.  in this example being called irrational raises the emotional temperature, it doesn't lower it.

I'd suggest something more like 'it sounds like this is getting tense, I'm going to take a break for now, but I'll be back to talk more later'.

I will go to the other room until you calm down [can be reasoned with] -- I am not abandoning you, I am doing this so something stupid doesn't happen". 

Honestly, I wouldn't use a phrase like this with someone who isn't disordered.   Yikes.   Ouch.     Words like belittling, condescending, dismissive come to mind when I read this.     Let's look at the emotional intensity of this -   'you calm down', when has it ~ever~ helped to tell a pwBPD to calm down?   unreasonable, abandoning and stupid?    those are very emotionally loaded words that are poking a sharp stick right into the most serious fears of a pwBPD.    how does this help to exit the conversation in a productive way?

I will suggest it's a good idea to put some boundaries in place about how long you are leaving the conversation for, and when and under what conditions you will return.    a couple of suggestions.

Let's stop for a minute while I make a cup of tea and think about what you've said.

When name calling starts, I feel it's important that I leave the discussion.    I can talk about this when things are expressed respectfully.

I don't want to fight with you, and this feels like a fight to me so I am going for a walk,   I'll be back in an hour (or whatever.)

Walk to the other room.  If they follow you to the other room, similar message...  "If you continue to yell [be irrational], I will go out for a drive/walk/run/etc. until you calm down [can be reasoned with] -- I am not abandoning you, I am doing this so I can clear my head"

if this is our boundary, we should own the boundary.    it's not about what they do, but what we do.   our boundaries come from our values.   boundaries are not ultimatums.   "If you continue to yell" is an ultimatum - change your behavior or else I will  XYZ.   "If you continue to yell" is really much different from "I won't be part of a discussion with yelling, swearing or bullying."   In the first we are trying to force someone else to conform to our expectations.  In the second we are being responsible for what we participate in.   it's a small but subtle difference.   "I will be part of a conversation where we are both allowed to speak about what we think/feel."   "I think we need to establish some practices that allow us to have productive conversations."   these type of statements are attempts to build common ground.    not enforce a type of behavior we want (or don't want) to see.

'ducks

[Manic Miner]

if this is our boundary, we should own the boundary.    it's not about what they do, but what we do.   our boundaries come from our values.   boundaries are not ultimatums.   "If you continue to yell" is an ultimatum - change your behavior or else I will  XYZ.   "If you continue to yell" is really much different from "I won't be part of a discussion with yelling, swearing or bullying."   In the first we are trying to force someone else to conform to our expectations.  In the second we are being responsible for what we participate in.   it's a small but subtle difference.   "I will be part of a conversation where we are both allowed to speak about what we think/feel."   "I think we need to establish some practices that allow us to have productive conversations."   these type of statements are attempts to build common ground.    not enforce a type of behavior we want (or don't want) to see.

I never had any results with Let's stop for a minute while I make a cup of tea and think about what you've said types. It's silly for me to say anything remotely similar. I tried to use it once, W almost mocked me how T taught me the right things to say. She instantly recognized it wasn't the way I communicate to anyone.

But yes, do not use sharp words or anything that is loaded with more than needed. However, a simple "I will not talk further if you continue to yell, talk over me or use harsh/strong words" did good most of the time for me.

Also it's not just what you say, but how you do it. Even if you use the right words, if you are stressed out, you start yelling or say louder than normal, it will be used against you. For example, if I say "Don't yell, I will stop discussing further if you continue to do so" and she calms down, if I rise 20% of my voice afterwards, even if that's not yelling, I will be instantly reminded that I am yelling as well and she will use my exact wording to knock me down and prove that we are equal. So keep that in mind as well. Don't bite the bait.

[babyducks]

No two people have the same communication style.    And as you say MM it's important to speak in a way that is natural and normal for you.   I  drink a tremendous amount of tea.   It would be perfectly normal for me to stop and make a cup.     It might be odd for someone else.    Or it might become a ritual that allows for starting and stopping a charged conversation.

What I think spans all BPD relationships is that communication tends to be difficult.   

Special skills and techniques can improve the chances for a successful conversation but don't guarantee it.

[SaltyDawg]

Baby Ducks,

   I understand what you are trying to express about the harshness and have passed some (J)udgement on my suggestions by your (A)rguments in the form of valid constructive criticism -- I accept and respect by understanding your difference of opinion and compassion for the borderline when they are in a dysregulated state.  However, I am going to pushback and [(D)efend] against your statements with some of my own observations -- this is meant as an (E)xplanation in the JADE acronymn on why I said what I did and why it works in my scenario, which I thought others might find helpful.

   I have previously tried what you suggested [and our previous couple's T] in my situation, and it does not work.  If I say something like "I need to leave before so I can clear my head" while she is in rage mode , she then comes after me more incensed and says I am the one who is messed up and can't deal with it and implies that it is my problem to fix.  Likewise, if I simply leave [and do the 'do not JADE'], she gets even more pissed initially, but settles down relatively quickly, but is ticked off that I didn't talk to her.  I am then accused of deliberately not communicating in the next couple's session - which is true. 

   What I am doing is actually a compromise suggested by the couple's T about a month and half ago.  My wife has become more emotionally regulated through her own force of will [I am assuming to prove that she is not dysregulated like I and my individual T had suggested] and will usually respond by disengaging if I point out the obvious part of her behavior [her 'yelling' or 'becoming unreasonable' (I don't say 'irrational' or any synonym of 'crazy' as those are very triggering for her] - she has become 'self-aware' of her anger management issues, since it is T approved in our particular scenario, she is endorsing and complying with the boundary that was mutually agreed upon under the mediation of our couple's T.  However, if your pwBPD, is not going through therapy to deal with their 'anger management' issues, and he/she doesn't know that they are not-normal, then one may need to use the less provocative language while communicating that you had suggested if they want to improve their relationship at their own cost of being the emotional caretaker without really holding your pwBPD accountable for their actions which is not the function of a boundary you want to establish in your relationship when emotions go out of control.

   I also agreed that she can do that to me when I do it.  However, as all of my abuse towards her was verbally reactive in nature by me -- the mere fact that she stops raging at me doesn't give me the opportunity to reactively rage back to her after several hours of her raging inches away from my face when I do engage her as per the previous couple's T suggestion.  It is a beautiful thing, the amount of raging in our home has dropped in the 95%+ range.  It's still there, but not anywhere near like it was.  The difference between a category-5 hurricane that cant be tolerated, and a brief summer thunderstorm that is just a nuisance.

   You need to find what works in your particular relationship.  Engaging with boundaries set where she blows right through them without accountability does not work.  Do not JADE, worked at deescalating, at the cost of no communication and a lot of hard feelings.  While if I use the reflection tool of coolly and calmly indicating the boundary exists, and _____ is the consequence for violating the boundary [yes, it is a form of a minor ultimatum that has been mutually pre-agreed upon when my pwBPD was baseline and not splitting with the aid of a T mediator].

   Just like goldilocks and the three bears, my emotional response should not be too soft and "coddle their emotions", nor should it be too hard "turn your back and abandon them with do not JADE", but just right "define the boundary, and describe the consequences for violating it, and if violated follow through with the consequences".  With borderlines, you need to be somewhat firm, as they have the mentality of a 2-4 year old child, as that is where their emotional development has been arrested. Be sure when you leave, that you will reassure them that you will be back, so the chance that they will perceive it as abandonment goes down.

   What I proposed, kind of works, when she isn't too triggered, so she can reflect back on it, since she is convinced that she does not have a PD and is normal, according to her T's.  However, if she is totally triggered, I do leave the room.  I have done this about once every other week.  Prior to this boundary being established it was do not JADE nearly every day, or multiple times per day if I said I needed to 'clear my head' and coddle her irrational emotional state.  Do what works for your particular situation, as every borderline is different.

   Additionally, I believe this topic was directed more towards those that are in the process of divorcing and avoiding the pitfall of "Do not JADE", so they can adequately show the court that they are the ones who are being rational and attempting to reasonably communicate in nearly impossible circumstances of a dysregulated individual who may or may not become unhinged.  By demonstrating your reasonable attempts at communicating, this will assist in protecting the non-borderlines rights and those that they are protecting [children, pets, livestock, etc.].  It is a very precarious situation to navigate successfully.

[maxsterling]

Seems like you are dealing with the same thing as me.

And let me guess-your W accuses you of "abusing" her by leaving the room, am I right?

It is a very difficult situation. In my case, deciding whether or not to leave the room is not an option - at this point I have to do this to protect my mental wellbeing.  W usually will not let me leave the room peacefully, so 95% of the time I leave the house.

Regarding what to say - in my case it does not matter.  W will rage no matter what I say or how I say it.  Usually I leave after she is already raging or calling names.  I also think that certain things are boundaries that are implicit - such as name calling or violence.  At that point, just state that you are leaving and leave.  If your partner can't put 2+2 together here then there really is no hope for civil communication.  I also feel that if you have identified something as a boundary in the past, there is no reason to re-state it. 

Perhaps I am a bit cynical.  I just feel from experience that the name of the game with pwBPD is to protect and take care of yourself first and foremost, and you are not responsible for using communication "tools" to diffuse situations.  I am sure you already know how to be kind with other people - so be kind and respectful, don't engage in the anger, and remove yourself.  I wouldn't worry too much about future legal ramifications, but I do agree if you think divorce is inevitable that secretly recording some of these exchanges may be a good idea. 

[SaltyDawg]

Seems like you are dealing with the same thing as me.

And let me guess-your W accuses you of "abusing" her by leaving the room, am I right?

Same, no; similar, yes.  Actually she doesn't say that I am abusing her, as she knows she has started the abuse - that's the crazy thing about it.  She just keeps on ranting and ranting about her distorted perceptions of me.

[EZEarache]

One way I do that is to leave the room when my uBPDw starts to berate or bully me.

Another way to do it, with guidance from my T, is to only engage in sit down meetings if they aren't an avenue for uBPDw to admonish, belittle, or shame me.

When I opt out, I do it calmly with clarity about how we talk and treat each other.

The rub?

My uBPDw says I'm avoiding hard conversation and refusing to communicate with her. Recently, she accused me of having a pattern of avoidance that is making things worse.

I'm concern she'll use me walking out of the room against me in the future.

Thoughts?

In the last few months before I moved out I was literally running away from her to try and end the fight. I ended up tripping on my shoelace because I couldn't stop to tie it as I was leaving the house. Wound up jacking up my knee. I started to feel very unsafe at this point. In our last fight she dragged me down the stairs trying to prevent me from leaving, then called the police on me.

After this when I was trying to figure out if we could raise our son together, she kept trying to corner me into conversations that would definitely end up resulting in conflict. I needed to have a professional present so I could explain my position without being accused of gaslighting. This resulted in her saying, "My therapist thinks you are hiding behind your therapist and avoiding meaningful conversation." Pretty similar, no? She was diagnosed by our couples therapist after she raged on him. Plus a few other problematic episodes that displayed enough traits for a diagnosis, by him.

She's much calmer now, but I try to keep all in person interactions to a minimum. Lately I'm worried she might try to recycle me soon.

You are doing better than I did/could. Keep up the good work.

[Couscous]

The trick is to say something like this, while looking her in the eye and standing no further than three feet from her: Darling, I’m feeling a little triggered right now so am going to take a break for 20 minutes, but would be happy to continue this conversation later when we’re both feeling calmer.

Then rinse and repeat as needed. If you just walk out (flight response) without telling her you are coming back, she will interpret that as a threat cue and you will escalate the situation.

[SaltyDawg]

I agree with couscous, only difference is for my particular situation it was overnight when my wife would calm down. 20 minutes isn't sufficient in my particular situation. And on my wife did calm down, it was no longer an issue, which is kind of weird. However, I did not say that I just got up and left, fortunately our couples counselor agreed with me that is the best thing to do when she is raging. Because you cannot deal with the person that is in an irrational rage.

Fortunately, since November, my life has been able to realize when she is originally raging and catching at the beginning, which is very refreshing since she has not been able to do that ever in our entire relationship.