Post nup or Divorce?

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I'm in the thick of it. Our therapist says its one of the most complex cases of BPD she has witnessed in 12 years of being a clinician. My wife still doesnt believe she has BPD and is refusing therapy.
She started pursuing a postnup during one of the times she was disassociating. I followed up with that I'm open to it as long as it protects all individuals. It did not and is giving her all assets except my clothes and work computer. She is now wanting to pursue divorce and will be approaching mediation with the same plan.

I'm unsure of what to do. My current idea is that I'll sign under certain conditions that way she gets what she wants and I'm protected. For example, One requirement may be that we continue to seek couples counseling and engage in all therapy suggested. I'm currently very unsure and overwhelmed. Any advice would be fantastic.

[InTheChaos]

I'm in the thick of it. Our therapist says its one of the most complex cases of BPD she has witnessed in 12 years of being a clinician. My wife still doesnt believe she has BPD and is refusing therapy.
She started pursuing a postnup during one of the times she was disassociating. I followed up with that I'm open to it as long as it protects all individuals. It did not and is giving her all assets except my clothes and work computer. She is now wanting to pursue divorce and will be approaching mediation with the same plan.

I'm unsure of what to do. My current idea is that I'll sign under certain conditions that way she gets what she wants and I'm protected. For example, One requirement may be that we continue to seek couples counseling and engage in all therapy suggested. I'm currently very unsure and overwhelmed. Any advice would be fantastic.

[livednlearned]

InTheChaos, welcome and hello.

Being told "its one of the most complex cases of BPD she has witnessed in 12 years" is quite a statement. How did you feel hearing that?

Are you in the early stages of learning about BPD or has this been something you've known about for a while. It might help us to learn a bit more how your wife's BPD traits present and how functional she is, and what specific challenges led to the diagnosis.

In general, though, family law court isn't too concerned with adult counseling unless it impacts the well-being of kids, if there are any, since they're minors. Even if you could compel counseling of an adult seeking divorce, family law court is not very effective at enforcing orders.

Do you think your wife is trying to change the narrative by focusing on what's wrong with you ("I have to divorce him") so she doesn't have to focus on her? ("BPD is for crazy people, he's crazy not me).

Has she ever pursued divorce before?

[Rev]

I'm in the thick of it. Our therapist says its one of the most complex cases of BPD she has witnessed in 12 years of being a clinician. My wife still doesnt believe she has BPD and is refusing therapy.
She started pursuing a postnup during one of the times she was disassociating. I followed up with that I'm open to it as long as it protects all individuals. It did not and is giving her all assets except my clothes and work computer. She is now wanting to pursue divorce and will be approaching mediation with the same plan.

I'm unsure of what to do. My current idea is that I'll sign under certain conditions that way she gets what she wants and I'm protected. For example, One requirement may be that we continue to seek couples counseling and engage in all therapy suggested. I'm currently very unsure and overwhelmed. Any advice would be fantastic.

Having gone through something similar - she wanted to annul the marriage the very next day - by the time I got to the divorce stage 18 months later - I really needed to be strategic with my words to get her to sign the separation agreement - which included paying her side of the fees.

What I will add to the great input you have from Livedandlearned is this.  Go to a very individual and rational space. Think with your head and think of yourself - what does that outcome look like?  Work backwards from there in terms of outcomes to where you feel comfortable - for what you want for yourself and still be able to look yourself in the mirror.  From there, you can start to nuance what you say and do.   It will help you with the inevitable emotional tides that will come with this.

I am really sorry you find yourself where you do. And I am really glad you found us. There is good advice here and there is lots of support. Zero judgement.

Hang in there.

Reach out any time.

Rev

[ForeverDad]

In general, though, family law court isn't too concerned with adult counseling unless it impacts the well-being of kids, if there are any, since they're minors. Even if you could compel counseling of an adult seeking divorce, family law court is not very effective at enforcing orders.

My divorce court was totally disinterested in 'fixing' either of us.  We were both adults.  I recall that after 8 years in and out of court (custody and parenting issues) finally a magistrate wrote in our last decision that my ex needed counseling but... wasn't going to order it.

Your spouse is being quite aggressive in her demands and ultimatums.  Always remember, you can choose your own reasonable answers and decisions.  You do not 'have' to cave and comply on the important matters.  (While sometimes it is about financial matters, usually the most complicated aspects are custody and parenting if there are children.)  If mediation is ordered, you do not have to be the one to give in to her mandates.  It's totally okay if mediation fails - mediation failed for nearly all of us but we did have to give it a sincere try - then it gets decided in a court.  Repeat, you do not have to give in only to regret it later.

It is what it is.  Likely there is too much past emotional baggage of the close relationship for her to truly listen to your perspective.  She equates her perceptions and feelings = facts.  If you wish not to live this sort of appeasing, always in conflict, always on a roller coaster ride of her extreme of emotions, then it is better to get off the roller coaster than to sacrifice yourself to more angst.

[InTheChaos]

Oh my goodness. All of you, thank you so much for your support. I need to figure out how to get emails on responses. I never knew you responded.

I agree whole heartedly. She's pushing me to a point of making her insecurities become realities, which from my understanding, is very stereotypical of BPD.

To answer your original question, I'm still learning about BPD and very new to it. I'm still very unsure with what I'm working with. The comment about "the most complex case my therapist has ever seen" is still confusing for me. My wife threatened divorce but within a couple of weeks thanked me wholeheartedly for holding her accountable. Then she did it again and backed down. Now shes doing it again and pursuing it. Weve had a trip to germany planned for over a year. On 7/24 she cried with excitement and joy for the trip. On 7/28 she cancled the trip, called for divorce and we had our first mediation consultation on 8/2 and all because she thought i was trying to brainwash her when i encouraged her to check with her friends for the plans we made with them that she didnt remember cause she was disassociating. Shes absolutely trying to change the narrative but to what, im unsure. The few times ive suggested that the fact our realities are so significantly different and we should get it looked into, it turned into "im not crazy, i have logs to prove it" and when I try to show proof that the logs are inaccurate,  she says shes triggered because im telling her that her reality isnt real. There's a lot I don't understand. Our therapist has had her own practice for 12 years and the best ive ever seen but she wont see us anymore due to how my wife has been responding. I'm doing my best to remain fair and unbiased by working with other therapists and pastors to make the best decision for her, my step son and myself but it's becoming difficult with how vindictive she has been behaving.

To be able to let go, I need to know I tried everything before I gave up. Has anyone just been blunt with someone with unconventional BPD?  Im to the point where if she escalates again im wanting to give an ultimatum. We either get professional help for the situation or I report the unhealthy environment to the father of the kiddo to let him deal with it and just take her to court to try to salvage what's left of my life.

[EyesUp]

To be able to let go, I need to know I tried everything before I gave up. Has anyone just been blunt with someone with unconventional BPD?  Im to the point where if she escalates again im wanting to give an ultimatum. We either get professional help for the situation or I report the unhealthy environment to the father of the kiddo to let him deal with it and just take her to court to try to salvage what's left of my life.

I recall feeling that way - "try everything" - I was really committed to my vows and to my wife, who clearly needed help.  Some of the things I tried included reading everything here, and doing the exercises.  I subscribed to Scribd and read everything I possibly could on b-cluster personalities, divorce, and high-conflict divorce.  I read a couple of "divorce for women" or "divorce for moms" too - to understand if there is a different POV or playbook (there is). It was like a second full time job.

I interviewed a lot of attorneys - even before I decided to proceed - and focused on practical experience that mirrored my situation.  Some politely decline to engage, others will take on any client they can get, and others demonstrate real competence. If you decide to proceed with divorce, you'll want an atty who knows the judges or magistrates in your county, not a traveling lawyer who'll go anywhere for a buck.

I was facing a situation like yours: My X threatened everything - primary parent, majority parenting time, disparaging me to friends, family, teachers, etc.  By that point, I knew how to not engage and avoid the distraction.

Fast forward:  We settled on the proverbial courthouse steps immediately before the first pre-trial hearing.  Some things that worked in my favor:  My X had been section 12'd twice.  I was willing to assume more than 50% of the marital debt in return for keeping the marital home.  Knowing that $ was always an issue for my X, this was a way to go over and above for my X while ensuring stability and continuity for our kids.

The process from initial filing to decree absolute took 1 year, and we continued to cohabitate with kids for about half of that time.

I encourage you to learn and know alimony and CS guidelines for your state and run your numbers.  You can agree to deviate from the guidelines, but should go in to any such agreement full informed what a judge's default position might be.

As others have suggested, give yourself time and space to think objectively.

In my case, I found that "radical acceptance" didn't mean I had to accept my spouse. It meant that I had to accept that a change in me was possible that I never expected - never sought - actively avoided.  But once I realized that I had another option that I had never even recognized or considered, it was like a light switch flipped - I was able to move forward with some conviction.

There are still moments when I revisit the past - But it usually serves to reinforce that I made the right choice.

Take your time.  Be kind to yourself.  Be considerate to yourself.  You've likely put huge effort into doing this for someone else - Does it seem like it's necessary to turn that time and attention inward? 

[ForeverDad]

Oh my goodness. All of you, thank you so much for your support. I need to figure out how to get emails on responses.

You just return to your posts to read any new replies.  The second line of text at the top of your forum page here is a link "Show new replies to your posts."

I agree whole heartedly. She's pushing me to a point of making her insecurities become realities, which from my understanding, is very stereotypical of BPD.

Frankly, if she is not involved in and diligently applying therapy, it will only get worse over time.  Without meaningful therapy it won't get any better in the years to come.  How it will get worse or how much it will get worse will vary from person to person.

Why?  She has to want to improve.  If she cannot let go the Denial, Blaming, Blame Shifting, Fault Finding, etc then there is little impact you can have on her.  You can't fix her.

Don't cling to a hope (as I did) that if you have children - or more children - with her that life will get better.  It won't and would get vastly more complicated to end the relationship.

Why do you see more of the discord than others?  They are peripheral contacts, they're not in a close relationship as you are.  She can't truly listen to you because she can't get past the emotional baggage of the close and intimate relationship.

Then throw in the dissociating and well it becomes an impossible challenge.  Do you know the myth of Sisyphus?  He rolled a boulder up a mountain only to have it roll down and he continually had to start over again.

The comment about "the most complex case my therapist has ever seen" is still confusing for me. ... Our therapist has had her own practice for 12 years and the best I've ever seen but she wont see us anymore due to how my wife has been responding.

Years ago I read comments about the professionals... "Some therapists don't see more than one Borderline patient at a time." ... "Some therapists with Borderline patients see their own therapists."

To be able to let go, I need to know I tried everything before I gave up. Has anyone just been blunt with someone with unconventional BPD?  I'm to the point where if she escalates again I'm wanting to give an ultimatum. We either get professional help for the situation or I report the unhealthy environment to the father of the kiddo to let him deal with it and just take her to court to try to salvage what's left of my life.

We understand, we've all been there, done that.  For some here the spouse responded and improved even if they didn't fully recover.  For some the behaviors were reduced with the use of better skills and communication on our part.  For many of those who made it to this divorcing board, well, we tried but our efforts weren't enough, and since there was insufficient positive response there was little choice but to end the relationship.

If she's not listening to you, what benefit is an ultimatum? ... Except to give her a heads up and increase the likelihood of her digging in her heels and sabotaging your exit?  First, get your ducks in a row, so to speak, get prepared for whatever you may have to do, whether stay or go.  Have you yet consulted with local experienced lawyers to determine what you need to do, and even more importantly what NOT to do?

The best handbook on divorcing a person with Borderline behaviors (you may never get a diagnosis so focus on the behaviors) is William Eddy's Splitting:  Protecting Yourself While Divorcing Someone with Borderline or Narcissistic Personality Disorder.

[Rev]

You just return to your posts to read any new replies.  The second line of text at the top of your forum page here is a link "Show new replies to your posts."

Frankly, if she is not involved in and diligently applying therapy, it will only get worse over time.  Without meaningful therapy it won't get any better in the years to come.  How it will get worse or how much it will get worse will vary from person to person.

Why?  She has to want to improve.  If she cannot let go the Denial, Blaming, Blame Shifting, Fault Finding, etc then there is little impact you can have on her.  You can't fix her.

Don't cling to a hope (as I did) that if you have children - or more children - with her that life will get better.  It won't and would get vastly more complicated to end the relationship.

Why do you see more of the discord than others?  They are peripheral contacts, they're not in a close relationship as you are.  She can't truly listen to you because she can't get past the emotional baggage of the close and intimate relationship.

Then throw in the dissociating and well it becomes an impossible challenge.  Do you know the myth of Sisyphus?  He rolled a boulder up a mountain only to have it roll down and he continually had to start over again.

Years ago I read comments about the professionals... "Some therapists don't see more than one Borderline patient at a time." ... "Some therapists with Borderline patients see their own therapists."

We understand, we've all been there, done that.  For some here the spouse responded and improved even if they didn't fully recover.  For some the behaviors were reduced with the use of better skills and communication on our part.  For many of those who made it to this divorcing board, well, we tried but our efforts weren't enough, and since there was insufficient positive response there was little choice but to end the relationship.

If she's not listening to you, what benefit is an ultimatum? ... Except to give her a heads up and increase the likelihood of her digging in her heels and sabotaging your exit?  First, get your ducks in a row, so to speak, get prepared for whatever you may have to do, whether stay or go.  Have you yet consulted with local experienced lawyers to determine what you need to do, and even more importantly what NOT to do?

The best handbook on divorcing a person with Borderline behaviors (you may never get a diagnosis so focus on the behaviors) is William Eddy's Splitting:  Protecting Yourself While Divorcing Someone with Borderline or Narcissistic Personality Disorder.

I would echo every last word of this post by F.D.  

Rev

[InTheChaos]

I keep thinking if I push hard enough, she'll have to give in somewhere and I might be able to encourage some sort of therapy and then she will HAVE to give in. Lol, what wishful thinking. You guys are absolutely right though. I need to speak with an attorney. I just had coffee with a guy earlier today who went through the same thing and he said his attorney was pretty great so I should ask for the name.

How did you guys get out of your wishful thinking habits? I struggle with breaking my vows and washing my hands of the situation.

[Rev]

.

How did you guys get out of your wishful thinking habits? I struggle with breaking my vows and washing my hands of the situation.

That is a really great question.  My case was a little different.  My ex pushed our relationship into a place that it was crystal clear that for my own mental health, I could not stay. But in the aftermath, which is when I found this place, I really suffered. Went into a deep, albeit temporary, depression.

Here is what I did.  I had three different friends hold me to account in a supportive way. I would cycle through them so that I didn't overburden them.

And - God is good - my lawyer was a former chaplain. The faith component for me was taken care of there.  He was as much my therapist as my lawyer and validated what I was feeling at the time. And he gave me great coaching in dealing with her.   Our divorce became a chess match where public relations were concerned - a chess match that he patiently played and eventually won.

And - I also relied on the wise and compassionate, but also straight talking, voices I found here. I stay and give my time now, because for me, paying it forward has been the best form of healing.

Hope something in there resonates for you.

Rev

[InTheChaos]

And - God is good - my lawyer was a former chaplain. The faith component for me was taken care of there.  He was as much my therapist as my lawyer and validated what I was feeling at the time. And he gave me great coaching in dealing with her.   Our divorce became a chess match where public relations were concerned - a chess match that he patiently played and eventually won.

What a blessing. I would have loved that and to make sure it's done in a way that would honor God but also her. How amazing.
I can see myself doing the same thing cause I'd imagine when you're not in the storm, helping others who are can be incredibly therapeutic. I appreciate that. Just the validation from this forum has made waves that help me heal. Big fan. (:

[ForeverDad]

How did you guys get out of your wishful thinking habits? I struggle with breaking my vows and washing my hands of the situation.

You both are adults.  There are lots of things you can do but you can't live your spouse's life for him/her.

I too came from a very religious background.  I could not imagine my marriage ever failing.  But it was failing and there was literally nothing I could do to avoid the slow-motion train wreck.  As economists and financial experts sometimes quip, "Changes start slowly and then suddenly."  That applied to me., my ex was slowly changing, like a small snowball rolling downhill, then all of a sudden it is huge and unavoidable.

Sadly, too often over time the poor behaviors and demands of acting-out disordered persons (Borderline, Narcissistic, Antisocial, Histrionic) worsen and then get even more worse.  At some point your choices get narrowed down to fewer and then one - exit.

In my case I had a toddler.  In addition to all the other conflict, rants and rages, she would sometimes declare she would disappear and I'd never see him again.  By the time he was a preschooler I had no choice but to seek legal protections both for myself and my parenting.

[livednlearned]

IntheChaos, do you feel comfortable sharing more about what makes your wife's behaviors "one of the most complex cases of BPD" (according to the therapist, at least)?

What is so tragic about this disorder (notwithstanding everything tragic about it), is that someone who is motivated to get better can get better. But YOU cannot make her want to get better. She has to want that for herself. My therapist told me that it was possible I would leave, and my ex could 1) drop everything and try to get better or 2) dig his heels in and make my life a living hell.

I wonder if you can see signs about which direction your wife might go. I had to work with my therapist to realize that we were likely headed for door number 2. My ex did not experience tender cycles and had addiction issues. Not a winning combo.

Unfortunately, the amount of compassion and kindness and love we have has very little to no impact on whether someone wants to get better. In fact, sometimes those qualities can be an impediment because the final product is a spineless partner that becomes devoured by the disorder as a casualty of it.

[InTheChaos]

IntheChaos, do you feel comfortable sharing more about what makes your wife's behaviors "one of the most complex cases of BPD" (according to the therapist, at least)?

1) drop everything and try to get better or 2) dig his heels in and make my life a living hell.

I wonder if you can see signs about which direction your wife might go. I had to work with my therapist to realize that we were likely headed for door number 2. My ex did not experience tender cycles and had addiction issues. Not a winning combo.

So according to the therapist, the complex part is how many different masks my wife is wearing right now as well as her cycles lasting much much longer than usual. So for example, she is both the avoidant and the initiator. In Walking on eggshells, they reference about a 10 week cool down period, I forget the exact quote but my wife's cycles are almost all doubled. Another example being this last cycle has been going on for about 6 months. If I let go of all boundaries, she'll relax a little but then she try for more forced validation and it becomes much more volatile and toxic. I don't see the tender cycles either.

She will definitely be the door #2. She's already working on it.

[ForeverDad]

Here's a factoid:  Courts are there to address legal issues. I had at least three magistrates under my domestic court's judge.  One was a bump on a log, another was emotionally frustrated with the cases before her and the last was calm but the best (or least bad) of them all.  None of them were really concerned too much with non-legal issues.

If the other spouse wants a post nup but you and your lawyer (who is there to protect you) don't agree with it... then there will be no post nup.  No judge would force you to agree to a post nup.

If the other spouse continues with the resistance, conflict or whatever... then you can end the marriage with a divorce.  Yes, you may have deep commitment to the concept of marriage as I did but if your mental health, your parenting or your children's lives are overly impacted then the alternative is better.  Remember, you did not fail the marriage, your acting-out spouse failed it.

[livednlearned]

Becoming self aware about her condition means giving up every single thing she relies on to cope.

To become self aware that she has a PD would be like agreeing to the biggest existential trust fall of all time.

If she doesn't trust her *self* she won't be able to trust you or anyone else.

She'll continue to perform her primary childhood trauma over and over, convinced by her own emotions that her reality is real.

Codependent partners can feel tempted to participate in this ruse in hopes that the good parts of the fantasy might prevail, which become fewer and farther between the deeper into mental illness the relationship devolves.

If your wife, of her own volition, wanted to get better and you two were bettering yourselves to strengthen the relationship, that is one thing. But unfortunately, when the BPD partner is unmotivated, then you have hard questions to ask yourself, including what it is you might be avoiding.

I used to wonder why n/BPDx would drink to excess and harm himself in some way, and then wake up and do it all over again.

It took a lot of therapy for me to see I had the same pattern, except n/BPDx functioned as the alcohol.

It is actually quite painful to realize that you are lovable. Being treated like garbage hurts but not like the acutely vulnerable pain of feeling we are loved, and deserve to be.

A toxic, volatile, abusive partner prevents us from feeling the pain of loving ourselves.