Appointment with the kid's shrink

[JoeBPD81]

In some days I have to see the therapist of my 12 year old.

He's the son of my pwBPD. The therapist wants to know me, of course. I get that.

But it really gets me mad to have responsibility with the kids, when their mother has a no relationship with me. We don't share a room, don't sleep together, don't have sex, and I get affection or some friendly treatment once or twice a month.

I'll tell you more later.

[ForeverDad]

In some days I have to see the therapist of my 12 year old.

He's the son of my pwBPD. The therapist wants to know me, of course. I get that.

But it really gets me mad to have responsibility with the kids, when their mother has a no relationship with me.

Whether you're married but platonic, or divorced, if he is your biological son (or adopted) then he is still your son.  Your adult relationship status with his mother should not impact your parenting.

Of course, do not hide the strife your spouse presents in the family scenario.  The therapist needs to know the overview of the home environment, otherwise your son would be shortchanged on the quality of treatment.

For all you know, your spouse has been making horrendous claims about you and if you hide the adult problems then the counselor may not detect the reality that is unsaid.  You need to present yourself as an involved father and seeking to support your son and determine lasting practical solutions.

EDIT:  I just read some older posts and it seems you are not the biological nor legal parent of either of her children.  If so, then some of what I wrote above does not apply.

However, since you are continuing the relationship with her, or at least haven't ended it yet, you are a sort of pseudo-stepfather.  Whether it's a legal connection or not, you do share a home environment and it would seem beneficial for the boy if you would meet with the therapist.

A caution, your now emotionally distant partner may have been falsely casting you as a Bad Guy, so do not disclose anything that may seem to make you look bad.  Not saying to lie, but surely "you have a right to be silent" as the movies remind us.  If there was conflict, highlight that much of what she may have said was due to her feelings and perceptions and not the full reality.

In other words, you can "apologize" for her mistaken feelings and perceptions - no legal repercussions - but avoid saying or hinting you did wrong, in case there might be legal repercussions.  My divorce lawyer always told me his first task was to sit on his clients to keep them silent because whenever they blabbed without his oversight then his task was made immensely more difficult.

[JoeBPD81]

Thanks a lot for answering.

I'm sorry I got cut out by work and couldn't write what I wanted.

I started this RS in a romantic pasionate way, but also being careful because she already had kids and I had no experience. When I commited to her, I knew it was the whole package. I knew it would be hard, as they came from an abusive home, SHE and the older kid were in therapy, and the little one was hyperactive. But I thought love and stability would be good. First time I visited them at their flat, S12 was 2 years old, and he ran from the other side of the house to hit me with his head (like a bull)again and again, and when I went to the bathroom he banged the door all the time I was there, and tried to open it.

The thing is, I was living in a hole, one bed, four walls, no heat, no internet... They lost their flat because the ex-husband stopped paying child support, and they went to live with granma. So I rented a 2 bedroom, nicer flat, so they could stay any night they wanted. I decorated one bedroom with kids stuff, I took out the playstation from a box... And we shared the house all weekends.

But this move of mine towards more commitment and more family was answered by her with less trust, and less affection. The kids started to see me as their dad.

I didn't know about BPD then. And as her biggest problem was that she thought I had a relationship with my ex wife, and that wasn't true at all, we (me and my ex) didn't talk, chat write or meet at all. As the problem was not true, I thought it would go away.

Their relationship with the granma wasn't good. She refused to be with the kids if my SO had to go to a job interview, or a doctor's appointment. And I was willing to do those things. So eventually we rented a house closer to the kid's school, and wanted to live together. When the time to move came, they stayed at granma's and I was there alone for the 1st month. She said it was a mistake, and that she didn't want to live with a man ever again. I asked her to give us a try. And they finally came reluctantly. I told her I would give her space, and be there for the things her mother wasn't. But anything else we would take it slow.

She never told me or act as if that feeling was over and she wanted to live with me. I feel I lost her the day we moved in together. She denies in her mind how this has affected everything in our lives. She denies it or gives me reasons why she rejected me like that, but doesn't realize it had great consecuences.

But we never told the kids "we are in a trial period" or "your mother breaks up with me every 10 days". We tried to give them stability, while I felt I was covering for her, and lying to the kids, because I was told they could leave any day.

We've never slept in the same room since that day. I started in this forum a year later, and I wrote that affection was seldom. On top of that, she ruled the house and showed no respect towards me. She chose what to tell me about the kids, told them to ignore my words when she didn't agree (using more colorful words herself)... I never felt she took me serioulsly as a parent and made a team with me.

By the way, the granma, the day after they moved away, she bought a dog, knowing that GF and one kid were very alergic. So stating they were not welcomed back. While she was happy they lived with me and thought it was the way to go because I was a good person.

So, for years I never found my footing. I was told often they were leaving, I was told they were only with me until they found a better place... There were also some good days in the beginning when I almost forgot the rest. But I felt I wasn't welcome in that house 95% of the time. Still, while they didn't leave, I tried to give the kids the best life I could give them. So while I was covering for her, the kids loved me as a father more and more. But me, knowing and fearing what I knew, and feeling like a bag of garbage, and hurt... I kept unconciously a wall between me and the kids, because they were going to leave me any day. I was going to be "that ash..le their mom dated for a while" any day.

I know I can't blame everything on her. I feel some of my "lack of love" for the kids must be because of how I am myself. I try to do what's best for them, but I don't feel the need to see them, or to hug them and kiss them.

I can't blame the kids either. They are difficult, for sure. But parents love their difficult kids.

Also, I feel judged all the time by her. Anything I say is scrutinized and broken appart, and analized. So "love the kids" which is something you feel naturally, I think about it and wonder about it, and I can't give a scientific answer. How do I evaluate myself if I love someone or not? I don't know if I make sense. My love for the kids is so under the microscope that I can't see the whole picture.

What I can know is when faced with a selfish option and another option is to give something for the kids, I choose the 2nd all the time. I know I'm not happy, and I know I give everything I can to them. I know I spend money on them that I wouldn't spend on myself... And I know as a result, the kids do want to live with me. But I can't be sure if it's just because I like technology and videogames, and their mother hates that.

When I think about proving my love, giving evidence, I think about what I can and do sacrifice for them. I know that's not all what love is about, but it is the meassurable part.

In the same way, I can't say they, any of them 3, love me. I'm the one sacrificing, and giving up my space. I can ask a stranger "please can you  hold my bag?, my shoelace got lose", and they would. My kids wouldn't, they would leave, or say "pass!". There's no impulse in them to help (anyone), and I've seen no compassion, responsibility, honesty... The things I see in the people I can say "I love them because of how they are", I love this or that friend because he/she is such a good person. I've been hoping to see some kind of conscience (goodness) in the kids for years, and I haven't. One therapist described the older kid like that "he sees people as things, and then plans what he can get from them, nothing else". That's my experience too. I try to act thinking I'm wrong, but I can't force myself to feel another thing.

So there's a lot of factors involved. And still, I can't help but wonder if I'm some kind of psychopath incapable of "normal" loving.

One problem they are discussing  with this therapist I'm seeing later this month is that I don't like physical contact with S12. He wants to hug me all the time, and I get tired.

It should be a source of joy for me that he wants to hug me all the time. Of course! It is with nephews and nieces, and other people. A hug is always nice. The problem is with the "all the time" part. I enter the house and either they ignore me and don't even say hello if the tv is on, or S12 is at the door to hug be before I can put my things away, my hands are busy with the keys, and a backpack, or whatever. And he hugs me... But then, in every hug, he doesn't let go until I get mad about it. He traps me and laughs, and doesn't let me pass, or do anything, not if I just hug him back and wait, not if I ask politely to let it go... Only after I'm angry. Every time. I go to the bathroom, when I get out, he's there. He also does sexual moans, and rubs his face in my nipples, and it makes it really uncomfortable. I'm empting the dishwasher, he hugs my behind. If we pass each other in the corridor, he grabs onto me.

Then when his brother, mother, aunts... want a hug, he says he hates them.

I tell him I want to give him hugs, but that a good hug is when both people want it at the same time. Not when my hand are bussy, not when I'm asking him to stop...

This is hard enough. But what makes it worse is that I have to keep a mindset of no physical affection, because the woman I love and I would want to hug all the time, wants me to keep away. So I have to ignore my impulses, and live without physical affection. But in that state of mind I have a little dude who wants to touch me all the time. Not only hugs, he also scratches me like I'm a dog. And he doesn't stop when he's asked to, he just laughs. This became a problem during the worst covid years, because he doesn't wash his hands and would touch my face, and sneeze in my face, he touches the food of everyone...and all the family got sick again and again.

Then another thing is that if miraculously we (S12 and me) are having a good time, then mom comes and tells us we are leaving S17 behind (when s17 always says no, and never wants to be with any of us) and tells us S17 is sick because of us "playing team". There's no winning at all.

This is all his RS with me.

Then you'd need to understand how his own mother talks about his behaviour. She does love him more than her own life. And she's able to talk very good things about him. But also has used words like "psychopath, tyrant, sadist, selfish, disturbed, attention sicking..." and she says he never lets any of us talk or have a nice moment, that he  turns all crazy, that he makes her want to jump out of the window, that she can't stand him anymore, that she gives up because she can't civilize them...

It is a fact that people around him get a very high level of anxiety. The feeling is that he's looking for trouble all the time.

Another therapist told us she gave up. She couldn't treat him, because he wouldn't tell the truth, ever, and never listened, nor did any of the things she adviced. She was honest and she told us she couldn't take our money if she didn't know how to help the kid.

I know and I feel for him. I know he must be suffering, and he doesn't choose to be like this. I know he needs help. And I know whatever my reasons, when I reject him, it hurts and it makes things worse. I know having a bad RS with her mother gives him unstability (we don't fight or argue much, but he knows we don't do things that other parents do: sleep together, kiss...).

I believe all marriages can go into rutine with time and not share much, and romanticism and passion fade away... But my complaint is that I was left out of the picture the 1st day we started living together. I've felt like the driver, the landlord, a servant, the nanny... But not a husband and a father. And not because I chose it.

I understand some people make a pact to live together and raise the kids between two friends, or even the parents after a divorce. But I didn't get the memo. I didn't make any pact. I moved in with a woman that suposedly loved me and wanted everything with me. And she just stopped doing "her part" and expected me to think of her kids as my sons.

So I've been being the best father I knew how to be. But it's been on faith and good will, and perseverance. But at the same time, feeling alone, and used, conned and hopeless. Most of the time she behaves like an ex-partner, so the kids have been the kids of my ex-partner, that live with me for economic reasons. I feel like nothing makes sense in our life (and that must be worse for the kids) but they don't have anyone else, so I keep doing my best. I wish it was very different.

OK. So what, from all this, should I tell the therapist and how? What would help the kid and won't end the relationship?

[ForeverDad]

And as her biggest problem was that she thought I had a relationship with my ex wife, and that wasn't true at all, we (me and my ex) didn't talk, chat write or meet at all. As the problem was not true, I thought it would go away...

Their relationship with the granma wasn't good...

On top of that, she ruled the house and showed no respect towards me. She chose what to tell me about the kids, told them to ignore my words when she didn't agree (using more colorful words herself)...

But I felt I wasn't welcome in that house 95% of the time.

Perhaps her granma can't deal with her constant negative personality switches?

We have a member here who said he knew when his ex was lying, it was when she opened her mouth.  Ponder that.  Could it be that the boys' father couldn't deal with her any more?  Could it be that granma couldn't deal with her anymore?  Without independent witnesses who aren't biased on one side or the other, you can't trust her to truthfully tell you the real and complete story of what really happened between her, her mother, her ex, etc.

Then you'd need to understand how his own mother talks about his behaviour. She does love him more than her own life. And she's able to talk very good things about him. But also has used words like "psychopath, tyrant, sadist, selfish, disturbed, attention sicking..." and she says he never lets any of us talk or have a nice moment, that he  turns all crazy, that he makes her want to jump out of the window, that she can't stand him anymore, that she gives up because she can't civilize them...

A mother is not really showing love when always playing good/bad mom.  Yes, she can get stressed or exasperated at times but this on/off or all or nothing pattern is unhealthy.  She is not a loving or healthy mother if she flips back and forth like that.

I won't even try to explain why S12 does what he does.  It could be genetic, or his mother's constant poor behaviors, or even something that profoundly impacted him before you met him at age 2.

[JoeBPD81]

Thanks ForeverDad

I understand if I met her now and told me stories I maybe wouldn't believe some of them. Much less if I met the image of the woman you get from my experience. I don't think she's a liar. She's not against lying, it's not a moral thing for her. But she's generally honest.

I think she has trouble understanding "normal" well meaning people. She expects the worst from people. And this comes from her childhood. Her mom, and many other relatives ARE bad people. At least were, now her mother is ill and can't do much good or evil. I've known them long enough to believe her accounts of reality.

I'll never know for sure. But my understanding is that she gets it wrong when she tries to understand good people, because they don't make sense with the experience she has. And she has a way of telling me what I did or said, completelly misundertanding my meaning or my chain of thoughts, that makes me understand I'm the villain in her view.

Today I asked her if she wanted me to attend a parents meeting at the hospital. I told her, "you don't need to explain, just tell me if you want me to go" I added a kiss emoji so she knew it was a message with affection, or so I thought. I told her that so she didn't need to write the reasons she might be uncomfortable with me going, and because both kids were sick home, and I knew she had her hands full. If I had explained that to her, she would have found 8 things to argue about, and then blamed me for make her lose all morning arguing.

She typed "No". So, I kept on working. When the time to leave for the meeting had past, she wrote "a person that doesn't want my explanations doesn't want to be bothered with my kid's problems. I can't attend either". How she got that reading, escapes my mind. But she says that's what I do, take her messages and read the worst possible meaning and get offended (because I think she's a monster).

Many times I'm told days later what she understood of a conversation, and I had been paying all those days for something that never crossed my mind she could have understood. Even as I'm trying to think all the possible wrong interpretations of anything I say, and I have experience.

Her ex, I've met him, and I've listened when he calls the kids (maybe twice a year). I met her lawyer, and I was around for their psychic evaluation for the custody trial. Heck, I paid for it. This guy is loaded and she could have taken the house and a big chunk of money, but she only fought for the custody. He's a drunk and a violent individual. For her is very humilliating to tell the things he did to her. I'm sure she didn't make it up.

Her mother and sisters love me, because she doesn't tell them lies about me, not even the ones she believes herself.  I believe I remember they lived with granma only for a bit more than a year, she (my SO) cooked and cleaned like a maid, I was there fixing things of the house with her when granma wasn't home. And even if she (granma) was heartless enough to be tired of her unstable daughter after a trial for abuse, she had a grandson who was a baby, and another 6 years old very traumatized. She has a 4 bedroom huge appartment, but they 3 slept on matresses on the floor all the time there. Also, she owned a twin appartment to hers on the same building and kept it empty.

---

I didn't explain well. She doesn't play good/bad mom. (of course none of us is as constant as we'd like to be) She always loves them no matter what. And she's always trying to help them. What I meant is that the kid's behaviour is so over the top, that even through the lenses of a blind mother's love, he's a sadist, and all the things she said. She's occasionally said to him "how can you be so...whatever?" But what I meant is that she used those words to tell me, crying, she can't take it anymore. She won't even tell it like that to therapist or other parents, she just vents (so harshly) with me. They make her cry several times a day, and they don't seem to care. He's so relentless about it that makes you want to kill yourself. The conection she doesn't make is that if she sees that, even having all the compassion and loyalty to him in the world, what does she expect me to feel? everywhere we go everyone loses their patience with him, because he challenges you until you lose your patience and then he keeps going. Everyone ends up asking him to stop, lecturing him,or getting angry, and threatening with punishment or taking away something they provide. Everyone. And Mom gets upset with everyone, "how dare they be so rude when he's only a child".

It's impossible to tell what he does and get an aproximate idea, if you don't live it. How all the days are the same except he adds more anoying new things once in a while. SHE says she gets angry by the end of the day (not true) but I get angry at the 1st thing he does when he sees me. But I panic just thinking about this, or knowing he's arriving home. As I've said many times here, I haven't had one day of peace in the last 8 years.

Yes, both kids have a genetic dissorder, on top of ADS, ADHD... I don't know the name, because she told me in passing. But the main trait to this dissorder is violent behavior. Today S17 has hit HER,and I've seen him do that many many times. He would be in jail or some place for younger mental patients if the police really saw all that he did. And how he has no remorse about it.

He's told her he hit her because he's angry because I don't love him. And I'm angrier because it was manipulation, to take her mind off of him and be resentful at me, because it happened because she wanted him to shower and she reached for the tv remote, and he hit her to fight for the remote. I was at work, and S12 told me, but nor S17 neither HER contradicted him. S17 only talks to us to demand service, or to tell us to shht up and leave him alone. He doesn't move a finger at home, and he's lost the last 2 years of school for not attending. He's in treatment, but he never does any of the homework they ask him to do, nor reaches any of the objectives (as simple as "going out of the house for 30 minutes everyday"). But he agrees with all the doctors and promises he'll do whatever they ask, or if they don't have a way to check it, he'll say he did it. I'm polite to him, but I don't wait for him to tell me 25 times to go away, or hit me, I leave him alone after he tells me once. I clean after him. I help him when he does some homework twice a year. I ask him to come to the park, to come to play basketball, to come play a videogame, to come see a movie...I get 200 noes and maybe 1 "fine", then 9 out of 10 "fines" he changes his mind. We've bought tickets to the movies that he asked to watch, and ended up going without him and losing a ticket (for a movie only he wanted to watch).

So I do believe sometimes they tell their mom I don't love them, and they would tell the therapist (because it worked with mom). And they might believe it for a minute. But they tell it to me too, only to tell me I'm the best father in the world 2 hours later, then I'm retarded and useless, an hour after that. They tell the same polar opposites about their mom. "I can't do what I want right now, then you're evil, and you hate me and you're the worst... You let me play, buy me sweets, help me with something I can't do alone, you're the best ever".

We haven't had more than 40 days without the kids in the last 9 years, but when it happened, she's a different person. She feels guilty without them and misses them, but without the constant abuse, she's a much more collected woman.

[JoeBPD81]

Could someone please help me translate all my emotional rambling into a few messages I can tell the therapist that would help her help the kid?

Thank you.

[kells76]

I think it's a really good thing that you will be able to meet with your S12's therapist. Having professional eyes on your situation will hopefully help you and your GF find some do-able changes to help your home be calmer and lower stress for everyone. And it's great that you are willing to meet up and to try to work together with the T.

One thing that could help to keep in mind is that everything won't get resolved in the first session -- I know you know that, so it's more about coming in to that first session with a mindset of "okay, this is going to be long term, I can relax a little and know I don't have to explain everything fully today".

So, an approach to the initial session could be to come up with 5-10 sentences giving a broad overview of the current situation -- something like:

"My GF and I have been together since X year; the kids were Y and Z years old at that time. As far as I have heard, their dad is [maybe fill in where he is living, his level of involvement, and any issues you have heard he has]. Initially, things were ____________ at the start. Over time, I have noticed S17 becoming more violent, for example hitting and punching all family members, and S12 becoming more clingy with me, though not a sad or scared clinginess. My GF and I have tried [fill in a handful of things you have tried with the boys -- i.e. punishments, consequences, agreements, chores, etc], and while they work for a day or two, I feel we struggle to maintain parenting authority, calmness, structure, routine, and limits for the boys, who are showing increasing acting-out behaviors. S17 has been diagnosed with ABC. So that is my perspective on the situation that S12 is in. My goal in being here is to learn better ways to help S12 be healthy."

That would give the T your view of the situation. The T will likely ask your GF and S12 (and perhaps S17, depending on the setup) about their thoughts and views of the situation and what they think the problems are, too. So it is OK for you to share exactly what you see and experience, and they will also share their views (which may differ in certain ways), and the T will use all of that to put together a picture of the family structure and struggles. It is perfectly okay to do your best at explaining the situation from your point of view, and to be completely honest. A good thing to remember to say (and focus on) is that you are there to support S12 and to learn ways to help him be healthier.

One helpful phrase to keep in mind for talking with a therapist or mental health professional is:

"What would you recommend I do in that situation?" For example, after you describe to the T your perspective on the situation, the T might ask some more questions, and you might remember certain times or instances where S12 did something and you responded in a certain way. You could show the T that you are open to new approaches, and want something better for your family, if you show you are willing to take advice. This can be really helpful for you because I just hear the frustration and pain at trying so, so hard over the years to help the boys, yet not much that you and your GF try has seemed to be long-term effective with the boys' intense needs and behaviors. Asking the T "so in that situation, what would you have done" or "what would you recommend I try, next time it happens" shows that you are cooperative and trying to make things better.

In fact, even if the T's recommendation doesn't help the next time, that is really important information to bring back to the T, to help the T get the real picture of the difficulties. For example, the T might say "I'd recommend setting a timer for 15 minutes and telling S12 he can hug you when the timer is up, but not before" (or whatever situation you're working on). You might try that and find that it didn't work at all. You would then be able to come back to the T and say "you know what, I tried exactly what you suggested, and instead, this is what happened -- what do you think, what should I do when that doesn't work". That can shine a lot of light on the dynamics going on.

...

Basically, you can review in your head ahead of time a 5-10 sentence description of the situation and problems from your point of view, with a focus on helping S12 be healthier. You can also remember that you can always ask the T, "so what would you recommend in that situation", and that shows that you are cooperative and want to learn and grow. And finally, you can keep in mind that this is a marathon, not a sprint, so it will be okay if at the end of the meeting you feel like you have not explained everything enough -- there will be more sessions so don't feel stressed or pressured to "fix everything" right away.

I hope it is a positive and productive time, and again, you deserve kudos for being willing to meet the T and try to improve your family life. 

[livednlearned]

Could someone please help me translate all my emotional rambling into a few messages I can tell the therapist that would help her help the kids?

What are your goals for this session?

Maybe most importantly, will your GF be in the room with you? If so, what outcome is important to you?

[JoeBPD81]

Thanks a lot for your answers, there are some very useful tips.

My mind has been in the issue with my sister, that kells76 also gave me an answer.

My GF has been there in all the previous apointments. And she will be there this time, next tuesday.

My goal is not to scrooo this thing up anymore than it already is. And to let them know I'm an average Joe, not a drunk kid-beating good for nothing excuse for a father.

I don't think all the help the kid needs should be focus in the idea that he's like that (exactly like his half-brother I've never met) because I don't give him 200 hugs a day, only 20. We need all help with his very real neurological and genetic issues. Of course he needs better parenting too, I'm not looking the other way, but we can't help him alone.

With S17 proffesionals have been giving us tips and time for years not taking seriously what was happening to him, and it took him to the verge of suicide, and was diagnosed very late, when he has a burnout regarding everything in life. He lives only to distract himself from the idea that he's not interested in life.

We don't want the same for S12 (didn't want it for S17 either). For him, of course, but also because we don't know if we can take it.

This half brother I talked about, was their biological father's son, before he divorced and married my SO (Before she divorced and met me). He had the same behavior, and his parents gave up his custody to social services after years of not knowing what to do with him, and after he chased his mother and sister with a knife. With adulthood and a foster home, he managed to improve and have a life. I tell you this because he has the same genes, but none of our influence as parents. I think it is significant.

[livednlearned]

My goal is not to scrooo this thing up anymore than it already is

Since GF will be at this appointment, how do you plan to participate in terms of this goal?

It sounds like you have been to similar appointments before and managed to not get kicked out of the relationship. Do you see this appointment the same as those appointments or different?

When my son had his first psychological/social evaluation with a psychologist, the report came back noting that my son was clean, dressed neatly, had an appropriate weight, was relaxed and well-mannered. I was described as mother in my 30s, relaxed and engaged with son, able to separate without incident, etc.

She was observing cues as much as listening to what was said.

 

And to let them know I'm an average Joe, not a drunk kid-beating good for nothing excuse for a father.

If these are your two goals I wonder if you have placed more expectations on this appointment than there might be time for?

If the goal is to keep the peace with GF, then you might defer to her as much as makes sense.

If the goal is to put SS12's needs front and center, then you might speak up more about issues you see.

If the goal is to sort out the issues with hugging, that seems to be a different conversation unless you can present it as an issue indicative of something more broadly concerning.

It is tricky being a step parent, extra tricky when there are neurological and medical issues. Add to that BPD traits in your partner and it becomes a high-wire act with no net.

If your goal is to simply survive this appointment without making things worse, it seems then that less is more. Say little. "I take direction from GF on these matters." "I'm here to learn." Or ask GF what she would like you to contribute.

If your goal is to signal that you are a decent guy, then showing up likely accomplishes that.

You are in a tough bind if GF is there, it seems you will have less room to say what you want without rocking the boat.

[JoeBPD81]

I've been regularly to parents group at S17's hospital and twice with the psychiatrist. I can only come when I'm invited, because not being the legal guardian, I'm not allowed to be there many times.

I've never been invited to a session about S12. I just learned today that the kid won't be there. Just GF and me with the therapist.

I've been invited because she, the therapist thinks I'm part of the problem. And I mentioned the hugs because S12 came from a session saying they had talked about that and the therapist told him to reduce the hugs to once a day. I'd like for this harrasment to stop, and be able to give him a loving hug once in a while without feeling he's enjoying making it uncomfortable. But that's not a priority, or the goal for therapy. It's just one of the things that makes it more difficult to feel comfortable around him. But it's way worse that he insults his mom, or wishes she was dead, or calls his brother "mentaly retarded", "monster", "useless" and so on. Ironically, he gets red-mad with S17 when S17 tries to hug S12, or touch him in ways S12 tries to touch me. But we haven't managed to make S17 stop touching us in uncomfortable ways, after years of asking and explaining why he can't do that.


So both S12 and GF have seen this therapist several times, she's aware of the general situation. It's just me who she's seeing for the first time.

I've seen that GF minimizes all bad behaviour when we have these meetings. I don't get it. And I'm torn because I don't want to put doubt in the therapists minds about what she reports. Because she's the one allways allowed there. I try to tell her in private that if we want to help the kids they need to know the truth, not a watered version of it.

I don't have much faith in therapist either, I haven't had great experiences. Specially because the kids are not interested in changing things. But I know the kids will always have GF in their corner, and maybe she would leave me one day, and then she would be all they have. So I've always thought their relationship was the most important thing. If she loses custody of the kids shouldn't be because of my intervention and judgement. I really don't have the knowledge to be sure what's best for them. I never put myself in the role of the good parent, talking bad about her to the kids. And I don't think I should do that with the therapist either. Even if I was able to talk alone.

The thing is, both kids fit the PDA profile (pathological demand avoidance). And I've been talking to other parents, many with different aproaches, no BPD involved, no past trauma... And the kids have the same behavior. We actually manage to get things done more than many, and the complete retiring of social life has come later than average. Some kids stop going to school by 7-9 years old. GF convinces them to go (S12 almost full atendance, S17 getting there after 2 years mostly absent) even if they had refused to go to school everyday almost since I know them.

Therapist in my country haven't heard about PDA, which is a branch of autism. And most good aproaches with autistic kids, or neurotypical ones, don't work at all with PDA kids. And of course we can't tell therapist how to do their job or what to read to educate themselves about new studies. But we take all the help we can get, and maybe she can help him in unexpected ways. We try everything they tell us
(if we can aford it), even the things we tried before, or the ones that sound counterintuitive, or that didn't work in other cases.

GF's therapist (Asperger's expert) and S17 social worker (the woman who got people to listen to us about his undiagnosed autism) say most therapist we encountered have been quick to blame the parents when they ran out of ideas. We've been blaming ourselves from the start, so that's not new, but then there came some diagnosys that parenting can't cause, nor cure. We already devote all our time to the kids, of course we would love to use that time to do what's right and works. But no one has found the right aproach yet. Not us, not the proffesionals.

Well this is why my goals are confusing and unclear.

I suspect she wants to chek me out to see how much of a problem I am. But my job won't allow me to attend several of these sessions. Also to scare me about how serious is S12 condition and suicidal ideation. As if it wasn't us who have been asking them to realize how serious it is. But maybe I'm overthinking everything, and I should go with an open mind and an honest unprepared answer to her questions.

Thanks a lot for your help.

[livednlearned]

I've been invited because she, the therapist thinks I'm part of the problem.

How so?

I've seen that GF minimizes all bad behaviour when we have these meetings. I don't get it. And I'm torn because I don't want to put doubt in the therapists minds about what she reports. Because she's the one allways allowed there. I try to tell her in private that if we want to help the kids they need to know the truth, not a watered version of it.

Is it accurate to say that GF doesn't trust the therapist?

kids fit the PDA profile (pathological demand avoidance). ... Therapist in my country haven't heard about PDA, which is a branch of autism. And most good aproaches with autistic kids, or neurotypical ones, don't work at all with PDA kids.

This is the sub-type of autism that my son has too. And in my country, it's only in the last few years that I see specific resources directed to better understand what approaches work.

And of course we can't tell therapist how to do their job or what to read to educate themselves about new studies.

Do you think GF might feel supported if you present this information to the therapist in the way you shared here? That PDA sub-type seems to present in different ways, that there are resources you are finding informative, including a growing body of research, etc. How some interventions that work with other types of ASD don't necessarily work with the kids, and you are hoping to find someone who can help make sense of this emerging research?

most therapist we encountered have been quick to blame the parents when they ran out of ideas.

I just want to say I really feel for you here. I've run into this, too. This is a common source of pain for parents of PDA kids.

I suspect she wants to chek me out to see how much of a problem I am.

You have a complex family with a lot going on, and sometimes therapists have limited empathy and insight, especially toward the parents, and they can also wield a lot of power if there are concerns about the capacity of parents, even when it's unfounded. I wonder if a safe compromise in this session is to emphasize that you are there to learn, and are open to suggestions (even though you already doing above and beyond what many BFs would do in a similar situation).

From what you've shared here, your GF limits influence (mama bear) and expects full participation (she needs your help), you want to stabilize your relationship with her, and your participation in therapy with SS12 is limited at best for a variety of reasons.

There may be cultural differences in how you interact with experts so this might not be helpful, but in my context, if I were in your position, I would keep the focus on what you can realistically achieve, framed as:

1. You're open to learning, open to suggestions, can you say more about that, etc.
2. Your understanding is that PDA is an emerging sub-type of autism with growing research primarily in UK
3. You're finding small successes with PDA interventions compared to other things you've tried (example)
4. Compared to other parents with PDA kids, you and GF seem to be doing better in xyz ways
5. You are grateful for any feedback on ways to better support S12, and while it's challenging to participate in sessions due to your job, maybe there are other ways you can be involved.

I think you're smart to take GF's lead and not cross-talk about whether she's downplaying things since she may be processing these sessions in a way that makes her feel safe.

It also seems like there is a firm, loving way to be present that supports this goal for her, prioritizing your relationship while being open to hearing what the therapist has to say.

Again, I want to say I hear you -- really, really hear you -- on the PDA challenges. I went through a coaching service specifically for young adults with PDA and the first coach said he didn't want me to set up the first appointment with S22, he wanted S22 to set it up himself to demonstrate his willingness to engage in coaching. It is hard to communicate how aggravating this was. Here was a coaching service specializing in PDA. I mean, getting S22 to set up his own appointments is one of the goals.

When the experts don't understand, it can feel invalidating to a degree that is hard to describe.

[JoeBPD81]

I write so much that the core message gets blurred.

The therapist think I'm part of the problem, and SO too, because the kid says I don't love him.

I'm sorry he thinks that and I work to improve and make it more ovbious. As best as I can. But I'm really not sure he says that because he thinks that or because it works as a way for people to stop asking him to dig depper into his feelings and why he does things. It works with mom, and it works with the therapist that doesn't know me yet. You know what I mean? I see it all the time. Instrospection is their worst enemy, ralaxation, mindfulness, it gives them nightmares. And they have a reflex of blaming other people for everything.

The kids want to be around me and they count on me for things that I can only understand as knowing I love them, and knowing I'll put them first. I also tell them I love them.

---
Yeah, it's accurate to say GF doesn't trust therapists. I'm so glad she's found one for herself she trusts so far.

---

I feel for you too. Having a PDA kid. Hopefully yours is getting the benefits of age and maturity and things are a bit easier.

From what you've shared here, your GF limits influence (mama bear) and expects full participation (she needs your help),

I couldn't have said it better.

I so understand about the frustrations you mention. If my son could set the appointment up himself to demonstrate his willingness to engage in coaching then he wouldn't be PDA, or wouldn't need as much help.

I take your suggestions to heart. I think for the 1st meeting, I won't bring ep PDA. GF already tried. And I will focus in my responsibility in the kids wellbeing, and how I can improve.

Thanks a lot.

[JoeBPD81]

It went well... for me.

I mean, it wasn't as uncomfortable and awkward as I expected. She wasn't out to get me.

She asked general questions, so general I didn't know what she meant. She asked about the relationship with his brother, about the schools about him having friends or not...

In 25 minutes or so, she said "we have to leave it here". I had asked for a whole day off at work for that... OK.

The therapist was so young, and wore a lot of makeup, and some piercings, I didn't want to be biased, but she didn't gave me professional vibes. She sounded incredulous, and told us she sees S12 "fine".

Recap:
- His psychiatrist has him medicated because he has allucinations, and that medication makes him less violent.
- The school councellor tells us he has critical levels of anxiety and he's at risk of suicide.
- The last therapist told us he has something so serious that she doesn't see herself capable of treating him, and that we need to see a neurologist.
- The previous school had him evaluated and gave an IQ of 75, after having been an A/A- student most of his life. And told us this result must be due to his emotional state.

- The new therapist says he's fine.