How I've been doing since I left my uBPDh

[Family Court Strategies: When Your Partner Has BPD OR NPD Traits.]

I first wrote this as a comment on my last thread, but decided it needs a new thread. I'm pretty frustrated and angry right now because my H has been texting me all day and sent me a long email last night.

The email was about how instead of divorcing him, I need to get treatment for my clinical depression. He said when we first met I was on antidepressants (which is true), but then I got off them. He says I should get back on them and get back into therapy. He says that "depression comes from within," and has nothing to do with anything he's done, and divorcing him will not solve my problems.

I was tempted to remind him that I've already been in therapy for over a year, but I just didn't answer. (Also, my therapist is the one who first suggested he is abusive and probably has BPD to begin with.)

Also yesterday he started asking me again if I am going to seek sole custody of D4, so I sent him a .pdf of our state's Standard Possession Order and told him I want that. He told me he'd look at it when he got off work.

Today he again started accusing me of trying to get sole custody of D4 and not let him ever see her again, so I reminded him that I sent him that email yesterday with the Standard Possession Order, which splits time 54/46. Then he started going on again about how he wants 50/50 to be "fair," and said this weekend he's going to write up a custom 50/50 custody schedule of his own for us to use instead and send it to me.

I was very tempted to say something like, "Gosh, sure would have been nice if you wanted to parent 50/50 with me BEFORE I left you," but I resisted the urge.

This is also sprinkled with a bunch of stuff about how he wants me to hold off on filing for divorce, and let's just be separated for now, and guilt tripping about keeping the family together, how D4 would be better off with us together, what about all the good times we've had, etc.

And asking what I say to D4 when she misses him or asks where Dada is. I just don't respond to that stuff. Haven't told him that so far it looks like she doesn't miss him.

This is all going on while I'm taking my cat to the vet this morning for a UTI, and then having a phone call with D4's therapist about what's going on and scheduling a home visit for week after next.

Oh, and I still haven't been able to talk to my attorney. First she said she would call me Monday, and I never heard from her. Then Tuesday I sent her a message online, and she replied saying she could call me Thursday. I replied asking her to let me know what time she'd call on Thursday. She didn't reply to that, and I didn't hear from her Thursday. Now this afternoon (Friday), I get a call from her while I'm standing in the checkout line at Wal-Mart. I didn't answer.

Is it normal for attorneys to think they can just call you whenever it is convenient to them? I don't think I can handle doing things like waiting all day Thursday for a call, making sure I don't go anywhere or do anything to make sure I don't miss her call, finally giving up Thursday evening, and then getting called on Friday afternoon while I'm right in the middle of something.

This is the same attorney that served H with papers before I was ready. I haven't switched yet. I still wasn't sure if I should, since changing attorneys is another big thing I'd have to deal with, and I don't want to change only for the next attorney to be even worse in some way.

But I think I need legal representation fast. I don't know how much longer I can go not letting H see D4, but I keep getting advice that I shouldn't let him, but I also don't want to look bad to the courts by keeping her from him for too long.

I can't believe it's only been a little over a week.

[Gerda]

I first wrote this as a comment on my last thread, but decided it needs a new thread. I'm pretty frustrated and angry right now because my H has been texting me all day and sent me a long email last night.

The email was about how instead of divorcing him, I need to get treatment for my clinical depression. He said when we first met I was on antidepressants (which is true), but then I got off them. He says I should get back on them and get back into therapy. He says that "depression comes from within," and has nothing to do with anything he's done, and divorcing him will not solve my problems.

I was tempted to remind him that I've already been in therapy for over a year, but I just didn't answer. (Also, my therapist is the one who first suggested he is abusive and probably has BPD to begin with.)

Also yesterday he started asking me again if I am going to seek sole custody of D4, so I sent him a .pdf of our state's Standard Possession Order and told him I want that. He told me he'd look at it when he got off work.

Today he again started accusing me of trying to get sole custody of D4 and not let him ever see her again, so I reminded him that I sent him that email yesterday with the Standard Possession Order, which splits time 54/46. Then he started going on again about how he wants 50/50 to be "fair," and said this weekend he's going to write up a custom 50/50 custody schedule of his own for us to use instead and send it to me.

I was very tempted to say something like, "Gosh, sure would have been nice if you wanted to parent 50/50 with me BEFORE I left you," but I resisted the urge.

This is also sprinkled with a bunch of stuff about how he wants me to hold off on filing for divorce, and let's just be separated for now, and guilt tripping about keeping the family together, how D4 would be better off with us together, what about all the good times we've had, etc.

And asking what I say to D4 when she misses him or asks where Dada is. I just don't respond to that stuff. Haven't told him that so far it looks like she doesn't miss him.

This is all going on while I'm taking my cat to the vet this morning for a UTI, and then having a phone call with D4's therapist about what's going on and scheduling a home visit for week after next.

Oh, and I still haven't been able to talk to my attorney. First she said she would call me Monday, and I never heard from her. Then Tuesday I sent her a message online, and she replied saying she could call me Thursday. I replied asking her to let me know what time she'd call on Thursday. She didn't reply to that, and I didn't hear from her Thursday. Now this afternoon (Friday), I get a call from her while I'm standing in the checkout line at Wal-Mart. I didn't answer.

Is it normal for attorneys to think they can just call you whenever it is convenient to them? I don't think I can handle doing things like waiting all day Thursday for a call, making sure I don't go anywhere or do anything to make sure I don't miss her call, finally giving up Thursday evening, and then getting called on Friday afternoon while I'm right in the middle of something.

This is the same attorney that served H with papers before I was ready. I haven't switched yet. I still wasn't sure if I should, since changing attorneys is another big thing I'd have to deal with, and I don't want to change only for the next attorney to be even worse in some way.

But I think I need legal representation fast. I don't know how much longer I can go not letting H see D4, but I keep getting advice that I shouldn't let him, but I also don't want to look bad to the courts by keeping her from him for too long.

I can't believe it's only been a little over a week.

[ForeverDad]

Of course he's going to hound you to cancel the divorce, go 50/50 rather than the state's standard order.  Why?  Because he's thinking of only himself despite all the posturing otherwise.

I found out that my state's "guidelines" order was merely a suggestion, window dressing, only if the parents went for it.  While you may have your reasons for telling him you're favoring the state standard, please don't lock yourself into that in case things turn out you need to limit his parenting time more than that does.

Is that motion to cancel the divorce been withdrawn?  I'm confused whether your divorce is active or not.

Frankly, in cases like ours, a legal separation is not enough, the other parent would still feel far too much entitlement and control over our lives.  A divorce ends the marriage and set the framework for post-marriage parenting custody and schedule.  Once done he has no say on anything in your life except appropriate parenting matters.

And he's not a doctor so his claim you need to go on depressants or whatever is just trying to get you to waffle on your decision to end a dysfunctional marriage.

He keeps asking whether he'll ever see his daughter again.  Like he didn't get your clear message that at some point he would.  (Until then phone calls and video will do.)  For him to keep asking that, I wonder whether he's - in a way  - signalling what he's likely to do when all is said and done, that is, drop off the map parentingwise, similar to before.

[kells76]

Hey... some quick thoughts for you.

Him texting/emailing you: maybe it's time to lean on friends. Is there someone you can trust, to give your email password to (or you just forward unread emails to the friend), who can review his emails and let you know if there's anything in there you need to reply to? It's sounding like 90% of what he writes doesn't merit a response?

D4 seeing Dad: remind me if you've done Zoom or phone yet? It seems like a winning move to set that up to show the courts that you are not "keeping her from him" and are encouraging safe contact. Maybe offer him some choices about days/times that you've already decided work for you: "Hey, what works best for you for a Zoom call with D4: Monday at 6, Wednesday at 5:30, or Saturday at 7pm?"

Lawyer stuff: maybe it wouldn't hurt to send a really direct email about your availability. I wonder if your L is assuming that because this seems really important to you, of course you'll drop everything to take calls at any moment. It might help to send an email or have a conversation where you lay out that yes, it's really important, and you're also hemmed in by work and D4 care, so here are the time ranges where you can drop everything for a call, and here are the "blackout times" where you have to prioritize job/D4 and will not take calls. IDK... seems like a win win, in that either she'll recalibrate and you can work together, or you'll have communicated it, she won't take it seriously, and you'll know to find someone else to work with.

...

Everything really hits at once when there's child safety and legal involvement. I wish work slowed down during those times but it inevitably ramps up, and the groceries don't buy themselves, and of course everyone plus the cat is sick. It's exhausting... I get it.

[Gerda]

ForeverDad,

I think my state's Standard Possession Order is actually being too generous to him, but I've been told by a couple of different lawyers now that it's the default and probably the best I can ask for. It's still better than 50/50 because I like the more predictable schedule, it gives me a little more time, and it gives me the right to designate the residence and school for D4.

I think limiting his parenting time even more than the SPO does would require me to prove that he's abusive to D4.

The divorce is not currently active. I would need my attorney to re-file. So right now we're just "separated" because I moved out, but my state doesn't have any kind of legal separation, so technically we're still married. And yes, that means there's no official orders regarding child custody, child support, division of property, etc. in place. Which isn't sustainable unless the two people can get along well enough to do some kind of informal handshake agreements, but we couldn't even agree on anything while we were married.

I do wonder if part of the reason why he keeps asking again and again for me to hold off on divorce and just be "separated" for a while is so that he can get out of paying child support, buying out my half of the house, etc. He did text me a couple of days ago asking if I'm going to pay half of D4's preschool tuition that was due on the first of the month. And here I am now paying for all of D4's food, clothes, shelter (rent and utilities). And he makes almost twice as much money as me.

Or it could just be because he wants to get me back because of his BPD fear of abandonment.

Telling me to get on antidepressants sounds to me like him just trying again to make it look like all of our relationship problems are my fault. Like I'm the mentally ill one, not him, and if I just got treatment then I'd be happy in this relationship. (I joked with a friend of mine, "so he's saying that I'll need to be on drugs in order to stand to be married to him?")

I assume that him asking me again and again when he's going to see D4 again, and if I'm going to seek sole custody even though I explicitly said I'm not, is just his BPD fear of abandonment kicking in too.

Kells76,

I know I've been texting him back way more than I should. I probably engaged with him more today than I should have. I haven't been responding to most of it though, even when it was really tempting to. He's really good at pushing my buttons.

I have been doing nightly video calls for the last three or four days, but he says that's not enough. Today he sent several texts insisting that he wants to see D4 in person, to hug her and kiss her and cuddle her for real again.

As for the lawyer, when I checked my email there was a message from her saying she wrote up a new divorce petition for me to review. I'll probably wait to do that until some time this weekend when I'm not in as much of a bad mood. That's a good idea to just tell the lawyer that she can't just call me anytime. I did ask her to let me know when she'd call on Thursday, but she didn't. This will become more important once I'm back at work. I couldn't take calls from my lawyer when I'm in the right middle of teaching class, for instance.

[Tangled mangled]

One mistake some of us make at the early stages of separation is the continuous engagement with the pwbpd.

Remember that all communication is an opportunity for abuse.
His demanding more contact with D4 has nothing to do with his care and concern for her needs. It’s simply a way to gain access to you and to control you.

If I were in your position, I would limit video calls to a maximum of twice per week at a scheduled day and time. Mine was Friday and weekends at 5pm. And it was up to the children whether or not they wanted calls with their dad. Mine were 5yrs and older but their preferences came first and if they chose not to speak with dad, I sent him an email confirming that. That still occurs and the courts support it. My children only speak once or twice a week via video calls.

I also limited communication with my ex to just emails and eventually changed my main mobile number- I was receiving all kinds of scam calls at the time. My engagement with him was clearly limited to discussing the divorce settlement. Child maintenance services handled child support and I didn’t engage with him directly asking for money. I left everything that could be handled by a professional to the required services.

You stbxh seems to have too much access to you and he is obviously abusing it. The controls are in your hands- but I can relate to the temptation to continue engaging with him.

Your engagement with him is only serving his needs. If you limit communication to just video calls with d4 and every other thing discussed via email, you will facilitate your own recovery- remember that the relationship was similar to heroine addiction and breaking up should be treated like rehabilitation.
Constant communication will continue to feed the drama causing harm to your wellbeing while placing control in his hands.

He does not deserve any answers from you about your next steps or future plans- he will sabotage things if you comply with his demands.

[AskingWhy]

With BPD and NPD, going "no contact" is key.

Communication only engages the partner into old behaviors.

Be strong and don't be manipulated into engaging.

Be well.

[Gerda]

I would go no contact if we didn't share a kid together.

As it is, I feel like I need to facilitate contact between them so I won't be accused of "kidnapping" her.

I try to keep the topic to parenting and don't give in to talking about our relationship, even though H tries to get me to a lot.

[ForeverDad]

As it is, I feel like I need to facilitate contact between them so I won't be accused of "kidnapping" her.

Don't be surprised that even bending over backward could still result in your ex claiming you've kidnapped your own child.  I actually experienced it, my then-stbEx tried to get a multi-state Amber Alert declared on me.

When you do settle or get an order, be sure not to feel compelled to be overly fair or overly nice.  Set your limits for what you will accept and stick to them unless you have basis to deviate.  A standard order with appropriate tweaks is the most you should accept.  Do not fool yourself into hoping that being generous with a schedule will cause him to reciprocate similarly, it won't.  While "reasonable" telephone contact and "mutually agreed" exchange locations may be okay as standard language for most orders, when there are confrontations, conflict, boundary pushing and obstruction it is best to tighten those normal vague clauses.  Anything left to interpretation is likely to be reinterpreted by the ex, of course to the ex's benefit.

Also, it is good to not schedule your departure flights too close to exchanges so that ex has leverage.  For example, if you tell ex, "I have to pick up the children at the regular 6 pm exchange because then we have to go right to the airport and fly at 9 pm" then you gift ex leverage to scheme sabotaging the exchange and hence the start of your vacation.  That's why I tried to start my vacations on my weekends back in the early days of my separation and divorce.  In 2006 I scheduled a vacation, my first without her, to start on my weekend.  She treated it like a request, saying, No.  Well, it's a notice, not a request.  But I left on my weekend and she was stuck with allowing me my normal weekend.  Of course on Monday when I was almost to my destination in the mountains a few states away and it was the normal exchange time she tried to get the local sheriff to declare an Amber Alert.  Fortunately she was told it didn't meet the criteria of an Amber Alert but she did manage to get an investigation started, their investigator contacted my lawyer and they worked out a solution for the duration of my vacation.

Try to be seen as the problem solver, not the problem. Of course, court and many of the professionals may start off assuming you're the problem or that you both are the problem, but over time they ought to see a difference between you two.[/quote]

I want to emphasize the solution the sheriff's investigator and my lawyer instructed me.  My L told me to call my ex every few days and hand over my phone to our kid.  He talked for a few minutes then lost interest in the call.

Listen to the others here.  No one here is recommending daily calls between the child and parent.  On the other hand, be careful that vague standard clauses like "reasonable telephone contact" don't enable the ex to demand more than what is reasonable.  Remember, court will not care one iota whether you are "overly fair" or not.  Listen to your gut.  Just don't be nasty and you'll do fine.

[zondolit]

Gerda,

This is such an intense time. You are worried about your daughter. You are essentially in hiding. There are so many decisions you have to make, and they all are so high-stakes. You are entering a legal process that is all new to you. It is easy to be subject to doubt and fear, and to be overwhelmed. Under it all is likely grief: your marriage was not what you long for.

You have broken a pattern and your husband is going to do his darnedest to get back to the old pattern. As best you can, observe his behaviors and see what you notice. Also notice how his communications make you feel. As you have been doing, write to us rather than him! Remember you have a lawyer do to some of the communication with him.

When I was in your position, my then-husband would try one tactic after another to draw me back. When strategy A, let's say cajoling, didn't work, he'd try something else, a guilt-trip, anger, fear, doubt, taunting, trying to get me to feel sorry for him, paternalism ("She is unwell, and when she finally recognizes her mistake, I will be here waiting to take her back, like a good husband"). It was all over the place.

Try to take some time, just a few moments as you can each day, to sit quietly by yourself and do nothing. Try to quiet your body if not your mind. The intensity of this time will one day pass.

[Gerda]

When I was in your position, my then-husband would try one tactic after another to draw me back. When strategy A, let's say cajoling, didn't work, he'd try something else, a guilt-trip, anger, fear, doubt, taunting, trying to get me to feel sorry for him, paternalism ("She is unwell, and when she finally recognizes her mistake, I will be here waiting to take her back, like a good husband"). It was all over the place.

This all sounds very familiar. He's been sending me pictures of us from our Honeymoon to try to remind me of the good times, sent me that email about how I need to get my depression treated, and keeps saying it would be best for D4 if we got back together.

I noticed he hasn't said anything about anything he might have done wrong in the relationship.

And when we do video calls with D4, he goes on and on about how much he misses her and wants to see her in person again. I'm sure that's at least partially meant to make me feel guilty and sorry for him.

If he's trying to win me back, it's really not working. Everything he's been doing is only reminding me more of why I left him to begin with.

[PeteWitsend]

Just something to consider:

It's consistent with pwBPD behavior to come out "Guns Blazing" and demand more than they can handle or might even want.

You're both most likely to end up with the state-guidelines in terms of possession and child support, (although property division is more of a wild card, depending on each situation), and so fighting this stuff could just waste money

However, a longer term concern you might have is him losing interest in parenting over time and sticking you with more of the burden.  If you're receiving child support payments, it's an easier pill to swallow. So don't give up any rights you have based on guidelines that might come back to bite you if he doesn't end up parenting as much as he claims he wants to right now.

I have an acquaintance who's ex-H fought her for close to 50/50, and so he pays less than the max child support for his income, but often ends up skipping visits and overnights at his convenience, so she bears a lot more of the burden than agreed

if he persists in fighting for 50/50, maybe give more on the property settlement (a one time issue) to give him a face saving "win" while you get more parenting time and rights and CS payments (a recurring issue). 

Remember the recurring issues are where pwBPD are really lousy to deal with...

[Gerda]

Yes, I think that's very possible. Right now he's acting like he wants lots of time with D4, but I wouldn't be at all surprised if that wears off over time (like all of the other changes he's ever tried to make in his life). I have a suspicion that he actually has no idea what it's like to be completely responsible for D4 for multiple days in a row, without me there to hand her off to. So far I've only left her alone with him for hours at a time, not days, and only when I absolutely had to for some reason.

I could definitely see him getting tired of it after a while and starting to skip weekends where he's supposed to have her.

[GaGrl]

When and if he has multiple days with your daughter, document the condition in which she is returned -- not bathed, hair not washed, clothes not appropriate, clothes dirty, etc.