Fed Up and Planning Ahead

[How to communicate after a contentious divorce...]

I was hoping to get some input here regarding my situation (and to get my own thoughts straight through a little bit of venting).  

I have been married to my wife for almost a decade after a brief period of dating.  At the time, it seemed like the perfect match.  While dating, there were some signs of instability, but we were young, and she had been relatively sheltered; I assumed she would mature with age.  

Unfortunately, that has not happened.  Soon after our wedding I began to notice more and more erratic, impulsive and selfish behavior.  The examples are familiar:  holidays, anniversaries and birthdays could never be drama-free; perceived slights from me, her family, my family, her friends, her coworkers, etc. would be blown way out of proportion; she would shift her interests and goals every few months, throwing herself into something entirely only to regret it later. Now, even after multiple children, she is the same and worse, raging at and demeaning me, and regularly threatening divorce and/or suicide. 

My patience has been worn out.  I am now weighing if and when to pursue a divorce.  She has already had some personal therapy and we have worked with a couples therapist (who confided that he thought she may have a personality disorder), but none of it seems to have resolved any of my wife's issues.
 
Looking ahead at a potential divorce, the biggest issues seem to be spousal support and custody.  
I have a demanding but well paying career with good prospects. Although a divorce would of course be a significant financial setback, I think within five years things would be the same as or better than they are today. I at least would not be spending every spare dime trying to appease my wife.  

In contrast, my wife has flipped back and forth between working and staying at home, and was fired from the last full-time job she had (as well as each of her previous full-time jobs).  I think it will be difficult for her to find a high-paying job without having to go back to school for a professional degree, not to mention keeping the job and balancing the demands of children, etc. She would certainly experience a decline in her living standards, which would be a big shock for her.

I imagine the court would initially favor her in a custody dispute.  She presents well and, because she only works part-time, has a more flexible schedule.  That said, she doesn't like taking care of the kids and seems to think having a full-time job would solve all of her problems.  

I already do probably 40%+ of the childcare right now (weekends plus getting them ready for the day and putting them to bed, most of their laundry--basically, if I'm in the house, I am caring for the kids and she is in her own world).  Her family is aware of her behavior and believes she has a personality disorder. They are supportive of me, as is my family, and I expect they would "take my side" in a custody dispute.  Moreover, I have years of recordings and contemporaneous notes showing her pattern of outbursts.  I am hopeful these factors would help me in a potential custody dispute.  

I am finishing up Bill Eddy's book Splitting and getting my ducks in a row to talk to lawyers.  Is there anything else I should do, weaknesses in my thinking or other advice or words of wisdom?  Am I perhaps being too dismissive of her ability to change?

It is very sad that things have come to this point, and I have been feeling pretty foolish for letting this go on this long. 

[Pretty Foolish]

I was hoping to get some input here regarding my situation (and to get my own thoughts straight through a little bit of venting).  

I have been married to my wife for almost a decade after a brief period of dating.  At the time, it seemed like the perfect match.  While dating, there were some signs of instability, but we were young, and she had been relatively sheltered; I assumed she would mature with age.  

Unfortunately, that has not happened.  Soon after our wedding I began to notice more and more erratic, impulsive and selfish behavior.  The examples are familiar:  holidays, anniversaries and birthdays could never be drama-free; perceived slights from me, her family, my family, her friends, her coworkers, etc. would be blown way out of proportion; she would shift her interests and goals every few months, throwing herself into something entirely only to regret it later. Now, even after multiple children, she is the same and worse, raging at and demeaning me, and regularly threatening divorce and/or suicide. 

My patience has been worn out.  I am now weighing if and when to pursue a divorce.  She has already had some personal therapy and we have worked with a couples therapist (who confided that he thought she may have a personality disorder), but none of it seems to have resolved any of my wife's issues.
 
Looking ahead at a potential divorce, the biggest issues seem to be spousal support and custody.  
I have a demanding but well paying career with good prospects. Although a divorce would of course be a significant financial setback, I think within five years things would be the same as or better than they are today. I at least would not be spending every spare dime trying to appease my wife.  

In contrast, my wife has flipped back and forth between working and staying at home, and was fired from the last full-time job she had (as well as each of her previous full-time jobs).  I think it will be difficult for her to find a high-paying job without having to go back to school for a professional degree, not to mention keeping the job and balancing the demands of children, etc. She would certainly experience a decline in her living standards, which would be a big shock for her.

I imagine the court would initially favor her in a custody dispute.  She presents well and, because she only works part-time, has a more flexible schedule.  That said, she doesn't like taking care of the kids and seems to think having a full-time job would solve all of her problems.  

I already do probably 40%+ of the childcare right now (weekends plus getting them ready for the day and putting them to bed, most of their laundry--basically, if I'm in the house, I am caring for the kids and she is in her own world).  Her family is aware of her behavior and believes she has a personality disorder. They are supportive of me, as is my family, and I expect they would "take my side" in a custody dispute.  Moreover, I have years of recordings and contemporaneous notes showing her pattern of outbursts.  I am hopeful these factors would help me in a potential custody dispute.  

I am finishing up Bill Eddy's book Splitting and getting my ducks in a row to talk to lawyers.  Is there anything else I should do, weaknesses in my thinking or other advice or words of wisdom?  Am I perhaps being too dismissive of her ability to change?

It is very sad that things have come to this point, and I have been feeling pretty foolish for letting this go on this long. 

[Tangled mangled]

I’m currently going through divorce, with a male bpd although I’m close to final stages ,  there’s no end in sight after almost 2 years of filing.
I’m not in the US so my court system is different.

I’ve heard men on this site describe the nightmare they have experienced.
In between, you are not being dismissive at all, you have been patient enough to explore therapy and counselling , that’s a lot of work put in already.

I’m wasn’t as wise as you have already been but my 2 cents are:

 Be prepared for things to escalate when she finds out that you are planning to leave. She will also be very sensitive to your pulling away from the relationship so be careful not to make any big changes in your behaviour until it’s safe to inform her. Is also possible that you can approach the divorce with the support of your marriage counsellor?

Continue to protect yourself and the children by gathering video and recorded evidence- false claims of DV are quite common.

Self doubt is your enemy and it makes you vulnerable to further manipulation and abuse. After years of this difficult relationship and being falsely accused and called names despite your efforts, it’s not unusual to doubt yourself and making decisions can be difficult.

There are similar threads going on at the moment such as that by a member here , Cravingpeace. Lots of useful information and an example of what can happen once she finds out about your intentions to divorce.

At this stage you must be careful not to react or to give her any reasons to accuse of DV.

50/50 custody is quite common so seek advice from your lawyers and make them aware your wife is a high conflict personality.

I’m fully separated from my husband, what I find is that my income is not much higher than it was when we were together but I’m able to live more comfortably without the need for full time work.

[livednlearned]

It's tough that you're going through this. Reading Splitting is a good start and so is reaching out for support, wherever you can find it.

It may seem odd to suggest this but the skills recommended for bettering a marriage are really helpful in a divorce. You'll use them in different ways but in general they'll help with co-parenting, even if they won't "fix" the problem.

Eddy wrote a book called Don't Alienate the Kids: Raising Emotionally Resilient Kids When One Parent has BPD/NPD and there are others that also focus on common issues that show up in our divorces, both during and beyond.

As far as your plan, do you anticipate your wife will be high-conflict? Does she recruit negative advocates? Do you think she'll make false allegations?

If so, you may want to identify the most aggressive lawyers and do a consult just to rule them out. They won't be able to work with your wife if there's a conflict of interest, which there will be if you do a consult. It's also generally a good idea to talk to several lawyers and get a sense of what they would do given goals you identify.

From there you'll get a good sense how things work where you live and can outline how to move forward. For me, I ran some numbers and figured out how to increase my hours at work to get health care and meet some savings goals. I documented things and protected nostalgic items and had several plans in place depending on how far sideways things might. go.

If your wife is suicidal, I would also get a safety plan together. Talk to therapists about what's best for your situation.

Based on how you describe your wife, it's possible that even if she were to get a custody agreement in her favor, you would probably end up with the kids more. This happened with my ex. He would fight for more time in court while asking me to take extra days with our son, never insisting on swapping time.

Are your kids in therapy? That might also be something you set up now rather than later. Our families are special needs. Most of our kids need some kind of therapy if they can.

 

[ForeverDad]

I find that one of our best qualities - fairness - can impel us to sabotage ourselves when dealing with an acting-out spouse.  We tend to try to be overly-fair and then we get stomped on.  Ouch!  So it's time for you to do all your planning, actions and reactions without the "I want to be fair to my spouse" feelings.  You will find the family courts don't care how nice or fair you are, sorry you get no extra points.  Of course, don't be nasty, but otherwise just take care of yourself and especially the kids.

[Pretty Foolish]

Thank you for the replies. 

The kids started school, and it turns out she has already pegged a teacher as a pedophile.  While the teacher is a bit too familiar with the students for my taste, nothing has been done that clearly crosses the line. She was fixated on this for weeks and then made a report to the school without telling me, which of course escalated the situation and resulted in a big meeting with the principal.  I knew she had been anxious, but did not know she had made a report.  Of course, it was very embarrassing to learn about this in a meeting with the principal when I am trying to smooth things over.

I had told her to settle down weeks ago but she continued to focus on her perceived threat and acted out on it.  She claims that she did not intend to escalate the matter and that she wasn't trying to hide it from me, but it is hard not to suspect she knew I would have stopped her and so went around me.

We need this school to work out (my wife has already created a bad impression at the best alternative school).  I am considering telling the principal and teacher that my wife has been under a lot of stress and let her anxiety get the better of her, and that they should feel free to communicate directly with me if a similar situation arises.  I don't want to throw her under the bus but her emotions and impulsivity are risking the education and development of our children.  I suppose this may also be something that comes up in a potential custody dispute if things proceed that far. 

Is there a good way to telegraph to third parties that my wife acts out on her own and that issues raised by her should be confirmed with me?   

[ForeverDad]

While I was still in divorce my ex got herself (and hence us) booted from the pediatrician's practice.  After the divorce was final she got herself (and hence us) booted from two daycares, one even filed harassment with the court.  It was no fun getting notices of "withdrawal of services".

While the above instances were based on her conflicts with me still being a parent, I do recall ex had suspicions about anyone and everyone as either abusers or women as competition.  She had been abused in her childhood and her perceptions were skewed toward negatives everywhere.  If your spouse is not in meaningful therapy and applying the insight diligently in her life and perceptions, then she won't stop.  (Sorry, she's not likely to truly listen to you because she can't/won't get past the emotional baggage of the relationship.  That's an aspect of the disorder, BPD is a dysfunction most evident in close relationships.)

Yes, you'll have to separately ask the professionals to contact you in the event of your spouse causing incidents.  Whether they will do so is up to them.

This is a heads-up that you'll have to deal with this issue in family court when the time comes.  Court will assume the litigants are both reasonably normal parents and it will take time for the court to realize that one parent is causing problems and the other parent (you) is proposing solutions.  Despite that resistance, do try to get the best ("least bad") temp order possible from the very start.  (When I divorced nearly two decades ago my court process had default preference for mothers and it took quite a while before that got fixed.)

[ForeverDad]

Looking ahead at a potential divorce, the biggest issues seem to be spousal support and custody.

Spousal support (during divorce) and alimony (after divorce) may be two different things.  In my divorce many years ago I did not pay spousal support but did pay alimony after the divorce.  Typically alimony is never more than half the length of the marriage and usually less.  Our attorneys agreed to settle alimony for 1/6 the marriage length, or 3 years, far less than half.

If in the USA, laws recently changed and be forewarned that some or all of ordered support may not be considered tax deductible expenses.

Around here the most complicated aspect is custody and the parenting schedule.  The most common reason is that - especially at the start of the divorce - the disordered person is simply too entitled and controlling, almost as though the children are viewed as extensions of the spouse.  (If your spouse is not overly obsessed with the kids, then the divorce process may not be sabotaged overmuch.  Maybe.)

In contrast, my wife has flipped back and forth between working and staying at home, and was fired from the last full-time job she had (as well as each of her previous full-time jobs).  I think it will be difficult for her to find a high-paying job without having to go back to school for a professional degree, not to mention keeping the job and balancing the demands of children, etc. She would certainly experience a decline in her living standards, which would be a big shock for her.

I imagine the court would initially favor her in a custody dispute.  She presents well and, because she only works part-time, has a more flexible schedule.  That said, she doesn't like taking care of the kids and seems to think having a full-time job would solve all of her problems.

Do try to get the "least bad" initial temp order, our cases can take much longer than most divorces... you don't want to be locked into a lousy temp order for all that time.

Are you using a daycare or the  before and after services?  If you have that in place then your stbEx (soon-to-be-ex) will not be credibly able to claim "I have to care for the kids" as an excuse not to do full time work.

I am finishing up Bill Eddy's book Splitting and getting my ducks in a row to talk to lawyers.  Is there anything else I should do, weaknesses in my thinking or other advice or words of wisdom?  Am I perhaps being too dismissive of her ability to change?

Beware that one of our admirable qualities - a sense of fairness or niceness - can easily sabotage you.  As long as you're not nasty or nefarious, don't try to be fair or nice in the custody or parenting time negotiations.  Court won't care one bit how nice or fair or generous you try to be.  And your ex will likely still demand even more, so curb your natural "Nice Guy" traits that won't be appreciated.

Yes, it's possible the ongoing therapy may improve your spouse.  But it would be an uphill climb and no one can predict whether or how much she might improve.  What has been commented before is that if she does recover mental stability then at a later date you can decide whether to remarry or not.

Only time will tell whether he is sincere and committed to making last improvements.  You get to decide how much more time, if any, you allow for him to prove himself.  After all, you've had many years with him and evidently during all your interactions over all those years there hasn't much if any long term positive response, right?

However, be fully aware that there is a vast difference between words and promises versus lasting actions and real progress toward improvement and recovery.  Promises are easy to make, real lasting improvements are so very difficult.

Do not feel pressured overmuch about your feelings, obligations and second-guessing yourself.

One of our most prolific posters some 5-10 years ago was JoannaK.  She wrote that if persons do work to attain some recovery from BPD then they would not be the same persons as before and there was a real possibility the relationship would not survive or be restarted, one or both had changed that much.

[PeteWitsend]

...

I am finishing up Bill Eddy's book Splitting and getting my ducks in a row to talk to lawyers.  Is there anything else I should do, weaknesses in my thinking or other advice or words of wisdom?  Am I perhaps being too dismissive of her ability to change?

It is very sad that things have come to this point, and I have been feeling pretty foolish for letting this go on this long. 

One of the things they'll tell you to do are "find an attorney experienced in BPD issues/high conflict divorce."

Easier said than done... maybe there is someone who has and through word of mouth you can get a verify their experience here and get a referral, but also: 1) every family law attorney will tell you they have experience with this "issue"; and 2) even if they have experience, whether they took the right lessons from that experience and will be able to help you navigate this path differently than in a normal divorce is doubtful.

Family law practice is maybe not the "bottom of the barrel" of the legal profession, but it's pretty far from the top.  Most of the people going into it aren't the best. 

I think the best you can do is get a basically competent attorney here who won't waste your time and money, and STAY ON THEM and stay involved in the process.  You may have to be your own advocate at times, if/when others are pushing to settle issues on terms that would be fine if your ex did not have a personality disorder, but could go on to provide endless conflict if they do. 

If your kids are a little older (in my state its age 12) the court can consider their testimony in terms of who they want to live with.  So that's something to consider. 

Also note that all states basically have some default rules and assumptions of child custody and property division, and absent a showing of abuse or neglect, or other criminal issues, courts will try to force your situation into that, and expect that one parent will end up with primary custody, and you'll both work things out.  Courts do not care about your kids in any sort of deeper way; if one parent can basically clothe, feed, and get them to school without physically abusing them... that's good enough.  It doesn't matter if that parent is also borderline, constantly bad mouthing you and stirring the proverbial sh__ all the time. 

So this is why I say you have to be your own advocate, even if your own attorney is pushing you to settle something.

Note that my kids therapist warned me that after a divorce, things typically stay stable-ish for about 2 years, and then some major change happens that renders negotiated settlements and custody unworkable, and you either have to take it, or go back to court. 

In my case, sure enough, my ex moved to the literal edge of the county, in a very rural area, to put as much distance between us as possible, and this made it extremely difficult to pick my daughter up after school, get her to school, and participate in events and such on the weekends with her (about a 30 mile drive each way). 

In our state, the default geographic restriction is by county, even though counties can be very large and diverse. 

We had been living in a more suburban area with great schools; BPDxw moved to a very rural part of the county with lousy schools, and there wasn't anything I could do because it was within the bounds of the decree!

What I wish I would have done is fight for more restrictive boundaries, and - this is key - stress that stability at home and school is important for the kids, and keeping both parents involved is as well, and so to this end, our boundaries had to be more narrowly defined.  And ALWAYS say you're doing something for the kids.  It has to be framed that way.  Courts will not care at all if you say "this gives me shorter drives and more time with the kids"...

I have more advice, I'll share later.  I haven't been through the legal wringer as much as ForeverDad, but have had plenty of issues post-divorce that in hindsight, I wish I had addressed up front, although it's impossible to fix everything in a divorce decree, especially when dealing with a pwBPD who looks for ways to create conflict.