Long time, same problems

[Ozzie101]

It’s been a long while since I last posted. I felt I needed a break and some things seemed to be getting better. But it’s rough again and I’m struggling to decide what to do about it.

Problem 1: My parents just moved from my hometown 45 minutes away to a new house about 2 miles from us. It’s had uBPDh in a spiral of anxiety. He’s convinced they’ll be coming by our house all the time or insisting on family dinners every week. This, even though they have never shown signs of this and have always respected space and boundaries. Not to mention they’re very active and have a lot of friends and family here. They’ll hardly rely on us for company.
Yesterday, he bumped into them at the grocery store. They all spoke to each other and I thought it sounded fine,” from his description. Later, he was dysregulated (and had been drinking, as I found out later) and went on and on about how they couldn’t get away from him fast enough and that my dad had “a look.”
My family is an ongoing issue. He wants to belong, but feels nervous and backs out of gatherings often. When he does go, I’ll hear about his anxiety for days before and if anything rubs him wrong, it will come up for years.
He’s convinced they don’t like him and I feel like there’s nothing I can really say or do, yet keep hearing it.

Problem 2: His mom. She’s a difficult woman. I get along with her fine, but she and uBPDh have a troubled relationship. She’s likely got some sort of OCD. She’s obsessive about people’s weight and brings it up constantly. But, there’s no one to help her with things other than uBPDh, as he’s an only child and she’s cut herself off from any friends.
For a while, it was fine, but now almost any time he talks to her he ends up in a horrible mood.
She lives 2.5 hours away, so we don’t see her much. She doesn’t drive on the highway anymore. But now she makes comments about my family living closer — passive-aggressive comments about seeing them more. Then uBPDh goes off on me about how my family is more important. I’ve told him for more than a year that we should spend Thanksgiving with her, yet he keeps saying “I know we’ll have yo do Thanksgiving here in the new house.” Drives me crazy. I’ve said the exact opposite.
Visiting her involves planning and a dog sitter, but I’m always willing and supportive. Truth is, he hates going and never wants to go, but when upset, he’ll pin it on me.

Problem 3: SS15, but that would be a post of its own.

I know all this is pretty typical projection, feelings = facts, etc. But I’m getting more than a little fed up.

It just all feels hopeless. My family isn’t going away anytime soon and I’m so tired of any get-together (he says it’s all the time, but there hasn’t been one since Christmas) or text (there’s a full family text string and my niece in college sends a lot about what she’s up to) triggering him.

[PeteWitsend]

Fights about my family were a major issue during my marriage to BPDxw and a trigger for the fight that more or less ended it (was really just the straw that broke the camel's back at that point... I was at my end). 

It seems like once they get this in them, it's almost too "good" of a source of drama and fighting for them to let go.

I think you should realize that the issues are entirely his own sense of inferiority and anxiety, and nothing you can say or do, nor anything your parents can say or do will address it.  So I think it's better to focus on what he feels like would make it easier for him to deal with...maybe better for him not to come to visits at their house?  Set the stage carefully so he can't later claim you didn't want him to come.  Same maybe with visits to his mom's house. 

Use phrases like "It's important to me that you come to as you are my husband, but if you'd rather stay home, I respect that and you can make that decision."

That might help reduce conflict a bit, although I'm sure he'll still be difficult about things.  But framing the options so they appear to be in control can help take the wind out of their sails when it comes to throwing a tantrum and blowing up about things. 

[Pook075]

I also experienced many fights about family with my BPD ex, and almost all of it was projection.  My family liked her just fine, and I liked her family.  Yet, someone was always upset with someone over a passive-aggressive statement that was blown out of context.

I wish that I had some direct advice, but you'll already know anything I say here.  You have to talk about it in a productive way, and that means catching your husband sober and even-keeled.  But if you bring it up then, it's not a problem but will lead to him becoming triggered and disordered...so how the heck do you get past it? 

My best strategy over the years has been to say, "I agree.  What do you think we should do?"

You can't argue when you agree with everything and let the other person make all the decisions.  And by doing that, it forces them to think rationally and actually participate without all the ranting and raving.  Seriously, if he says "Thanksgiving at Burger King," then you should say, "I agree.  What time and which location?"  Let it be 100% about him and don't argue a thing.

[Ozzie101]

Thank you both. I really appreciate the advice and input.

PeteWitsend, I've been using the "I would love for you to be there, but I also understand and support you if you'd rather not" type of response almost since our relationship began. Most of the time, he says he wants to go. Then he'll get anxious about an event for days (or even weeks) before. And then, afterward, he'll find something someone said or did (or didn't say) that he'll interpret as a sign they hate him.

We've had many, many conversations about my family. When he's sober and calm, he talks about it all rationally. He's admitted that he really wants my family to like him and he wants to feel like he's a part. But he doesn't feel it. He's an introvert and is, by his own admission, intimidated. My family are actually introverted as well, so they get it and they try to give him space while also speaking to him and being nice.

My T has suggested that when we're arguing and he says stuff that's unfair or untrue, just letting it go and saying something like "What do you want me to say?" I know defending doesn't help, so that's something I'll work on. Definitely goes against my nature, as my first instinct when hearing something unfair or untrue is to argue. But I know it doesn't help. Regardless, I'm just so tired of it being an issue and dreading it getting worse with my parents so close.

[PeteWitsend]

Thank you both. I really appreciate the advice and input.

PeteWitsend, I've been using the "I would love for you to be there, but I also understand and support you if you'd rather not" type of response almost since our relationship began. Most of the time, he says he wants to go. Then he'll get anxious about an event for days (or even weeks) before. And then, afterward, he'll find something someone said or did (or didn't say) that he'll interpret as a sign they hate him.

All I can do is commiserate with you.  I was in the same boat, and was just following the advice I received from one of our MCs, and online, but like you're seeing, it never really worked.  In my case, in the end, she'd always find something to get upset about: someone gave her the side-eye; someone rolled their eyes; my uncle didn't say "hi" to her right away, etc.  Often it happened out of my presence, so I didn't even know if it was true or not. 

You really need to have the patience of a saint, and the skill of a therapist to navigate this perfectly... so it's basically impossible. 

We've had many, many conversations about my family. When he's sober and calm, he talks about it all rationally. He's admitted that he really wants my family to like him and he wants to feel like he's a part. But he doesn't feel it. He's an introvert and is, by his own admission, intimidated. My family are actually introverted as well, so they get it and they try to give him space while also speaking to him and being nice.

It does sound like he's being somewhat honest here at least, as disordered & unreasonable as his behavior might be.  In my case, on a couple occasions BPDxw admitted to me that she hoped I would stop seeing my family and she was intentionally trying to get me to cut them out of my life, because she felt threatened by other relationships I had, even with my own parents, aunts, brother, etc.  Of course, these admissions never happened when I would point them out to her later, when she was picking a fight over this.

I felt like in the end, it was just "bottomless pit" stuff; she needed to feed the monster in her, and to that end, found that I would defend my family and wouldn't put up with her demands that I stop seeing them, tell my mom that all communications to me must go through my wife, and whatever other insane things she wanted.  Once she had that, it was just too good to let go, and she got her drama needs met by picking fights over this at least monthly, for the last couple years of our marriage.  But I don't know if she was BPD or not, and a lot of the stuff she did had a more malevolent feel to it; she was more vindictive.  When I read about Antisocial Personality Disorder (ASPD) that rang more of a bell to me. 

My T has suggested that when we're arguing and he says stuff that's unfair or untrue, just letting it go and saying something like "What do you want me to say?" I know defending doesn't help, so that's something I'll work on. Definitely goes against my nature, as my first instinct when hearing something unfair or untrue is to argue. But I know it doesn't help. Regardless, I'm just so tired of it being an issue and dreading it getting worse with my parents so close.

I think this is good advice.  Like I said above, the issues are entirely in his head, and nothing is going to stop that, save him recognizing the issue, seeking therapy and working to change.  And good luck with that...

When these things blow up, you can't stop them; the best you can do is reduce the damage and length of time they go on for.  Don't get drawn into circular arguments, and just put the ball in his court when you can, by making light of the absurdity of the situation.  I think "We did all the things you asked for.  You're still unhappy.  What else do you want?" catches them off guard sometimes, and that's helpful for ending it.  They want to feel like they're the righteous victim; when you hold a proverbial mirror up and let them see that they've gotten everything they want, it takes the wind out of their sails.

[Ozzie101]

You hit the nail on the head, PeteWitsend, with him finding things to get upset about. Most of the time, I am present for the things he complains about. And, yes, my sister spoke to him. Yes, BIL said hello. Yes, my dad talked directly to him and asked questions. When he’s regulated, he’s reasonable. When he’s not, the disconnect with reality is maddening.

He’ll draw SS15 into it as well — that no one cares about him or includes him. That’s gotten a little better now that he’s older. He and the oldest three kids now have friends and acquaintances in common. When H is calm, he’s reasonable. When he’s not, nothing short of my family worshipping at SS’s altar will satisfy him.

[Pook075]

We've had many, many conversations about my family. When he's sober and calm, he talks about it all rationally. He's admitted that he really wants my family to like him and he wants to feel like he's a part.

My BPD ex and my BPD daughter did the same thing- they needed to feel it.  Yet they couldn't sometimes because they went into the situation with an agenda already made in their minds.  That's the crux of the mental illness, the disordered thinking that makes blue look like yellow with pink polka-dots.

They feel what they feel- that's real to them.  Just remember that feelings aren't facts.  If they say, "I don't want to go because nobody likes me."  Okay, that's valid because they feel rejected.  You shouldn't argue about feelings.  But at the same time, you should understand that it's the mental illness talking and the situation they perceive isn't necessarily true.  It just "feels" that way to them.

How does this help?

Don't argue about feelings.  If your partner complains that people don't like him, say that 'you hate feeling that way and it would bother you too.'  That flips things- now you're an ally instead of an enemy.  Your feelings are aligned on what he's experiencing and that makes a huge difference.

What does an ally do?  I'll talk to them and find out what's going on.  But again, now you're doing it as an ally to help him instead of an enemy that's making him even more uncomfortable.  This is how the narrative shifts over time and gets back to "us" instead of "your feelings" and "his feelings".

Make sense?

[Notwendy]

I have an example of this kind of thinking that may help make some sense of this. I know a young woman with BPD. We were all at a pool party. She had surgery as a child and has a scar that is barely noticeable. Usually nobody sees it but it's visible when she wears a bathing suit. She was in the pool with several people, when suddenly she jumps out, grabs a towel, and runs off.

I asked her mother if she was OK and she said that her daughter thought everyone was looking at her scar. So she left.

Nobody was looking at it. She's self conscious about it and so she thinks people are looking at it, and because she thinks it, it must be true. No amount of talking to her about how nobody is looking at it can change how she thinks because- it's not true and yet, she thinks it anyway.

My BPD mother avoided my father's family. No amount of talking could change that. She also frequently would agree to any kind of social get together- not just with his family, and then change her mind at the last minute due to some reason she'd state. She was critical of my father's family. Obviously her behavior was noticeable to them.

I assumed they'd not have anything to do with each other after my father passed away. Some time later, they had a get together and didn't invite BPD mother. She was furious! I said "but you say you don't like them and you wouldn't go to them anyway so why are you angry?" Her reply "they should have invited me anyway!!"

If none of this makes any sense, it's because it's due to their own thinking about their own feelings.

The odd thing to me is what her own family thought. I thought they were her biggest fans. They would compliment her, invite her over and she often went. We lived very close to them for a  while when I was a child and I recall going to their house but they didn't come to ours. People rarely came over. BPD mother didn't want anyone in the house. She could hold it together in public for social occasions. At home, she was dysregulated a lot. I knew that was the reason but it was kept secret.

Her family told me later, they thought my parents were snobs and too good for them and that is why they never invited them over.

Both sides of the family kept their mouths shut about this, still invited my mother. I didn't know what they actually thought until much later.

My best and only advice is to not have these long discussions with with your H about this. He's going to think what he thinks, and there's no changing that. Your famiy will also come to their own conclusions, based on the behavior they see and their own thoughts about it. Any relationship between your H, his family, and your family- is up to them.

You take care of your own relationship with your family. If they invite the two of you, tell him he's invited, and you'd love for him to attend, then leave it to him to decide. But you go anyway. BPD mother wouldn't go to my Dad's family- but we kids did. Now, we are the adults, and still get together with our own kids. Because of this, we are still connected.

Not so with my mother's FOO. There were years of estrangement. We are trying to reconnect but people are busy and live at a distance. We are not as connected.

Let your H decide about his own family. Tell him you are willing to visit his mother and when he wants to do that, let you know and you can make plans. He may not follow through. He may be blaming you for his own reluctance to go- but that's his projection.

The long conversations won't fix how your H thinks. Just like my friend's daughter who thinks people are looking at her scar, when they didn't even notice it- that's her thinking. Let your H be responsible for his relationships with other people.

You now have a great opportunity to see your side of the family- so go see them, whenever you want to. If your H doesn't want to come, it's fine- let him make his choice. You can still enjoy your relationship with them and stay close.