Trying to figure it out (maybe long)

[not2old2change]

Hello, I am new here and this is my first post. I am trying to figure out what to do next.

To start a little about me. I am an Adult Child of an Alcoholic (ACOA) and I have plenty of Adverse Childhood Experiences (ACEs). I have been in therapy here and there though my life. At age 56 I started some deeper therapy, Trauma/EMDR, and it was wonderful and very helpful. I was able to reframe many old experiences and I no longer felt like the trauma was driving the bus.

But maybe because of my own past I am a little slow figuring things out. Like what is really going on in my marriage. Looking back I see so many red flags that I missed, some before we were married.

The toughest part of the marriage was when my wife was in peri-menopause. She would have what I now call an Anger Flash. She would suddenly get very angry, what I now call raging, and would say hurtful or unkind things, and then would suddenly be back to normal. And when asked about it she would say that she had not been angry. It started occasionally but over time grew to happen probably once a day on average. 2 of the 4 kids were still at home, and I tried to protect them from it. I cannot say that I did that good a job.

Over the course of (about) 4 years it almost ruined me. It destroyed all of the bond I have with her. I have stayed out of duty and commitment and responsibility. But then some magic happened. One day when at the doctor she decided to start on an antidepressant. She changed almost immediately. The rages went away.

The damage stopped but under the surface I was still scared but did not realize it. And there were still controlling behaviors.

She still was not easy to live with. It was still a one-way relationship, with me giving her the things she needed to feel loved, and never giving me what I needed. Those things she gave me had gradually faded over the course of the marriage. I recently realized that I have been enabling, and changing my life to work around keeping her from getting angry. I kept waiting for her to figure it out and come back to me.

Two events happened recently that have changed things. First, she had an anger flash when we were having a difficult conversation (getting our Wills made). I responded in anger. While this may not sound like a great thing, it was different for me, instead of staying quiet in shock and hurt. We got though the conversation, with her saying that she had not been angry. It took me about a day to figure out that it had been an anger flash.

We did have a very emotional talk about it a few days later, with me trying to tell her again about the anger flash thing. She totally twisted that one conversation and said that she DID remember getting angry. She never even addressed the idea of the anger flashes that she had in the past (and has banned me from bringing it up again). Now, at some point I had realized that part of the problem with the anger flashes was that she did not remember them. She did not remember that she was angry or the angry things she had said. So it was not really a surprise that she did not acknowledge that these things had happened many times before.

The second event was that my youngest child moved out. She said that she could not be herself around my wife. And truth be told, every one of the 4 children moved out related to difficulties with my wife. But the point was that it helped me to realize that part of why I am staying married is to mitigate the damage to my youngest child. Having her gone released me.

To add some more data, my wife loves to diagnose others. She insists that her mother (my mother-in-law) and our third child have Borderline Personality Disorder. That is what brought it to my attention. And mentioning this in my Men's circle cause one of the men to suggest the Walking on Eggshells book. So I have been listening to that in my car when driving to work at my part-time job.

I went through the questions, and scored my wife, with a 5.5 on BPD and a 6.5 on NPD. Total score of 12, which means that book would suggest that she has both. And she has the "unconventional" type which means that she may never be able to understand that she has it.

But no diagnosis. And the book says not to talk with her about it. Granted, I have tried to talk with her about her behaviors many times, and there is never any change. And most of the time she does not even remember that we had the discussion.

I was also annoyed that a chapter of the book described ways to set up better boundaries and improve communication. That would have helped a LOT years ago. But I did not want to hear it, as I was too busy thinking about getting out and finding a way to be happy. Now I am confused.

My wife has had her own share of trauma. She also had an alcoholic father. She had a mother that was quite difficult to deal with during her teen years (maybe BPD, maybe NPD, maybe also peri-menopause amplified) and she has had secondary trauma from some of the work she did. And there may be some other well-hidden abuse in her past. One of the things she told me years ago was that her emotions where very strong, and that she does not like to hear my feelings because that puts her into overload. I think she is a very strong emotional person. Much of her life is structured around keeping the lid on her feelings.

So on to where I am now. I want to be happy. I do not think that I will ever be happy with my wife. But I also do not want to break the marriage vow (better or worse, till death do us part...). My wife seems to have BPD, but medications to not help that, but when she started taking the anti-depressants it DID help. So does she have it or not? Also, I have been laid off 3 times in the past 4 years (massive layoffs in the tech sector). So we are in debt and and are barely paying the bills, let alone paying off the debts. And there is no retirement account any more. We spent all that during times of unemployment. So I cannot afford to just get an apartment and leave. We could sell the house and pay off the debts, but I do not know where she would go. I would prefer to leave her the house. But it is a big old house that she could never care of herself, so it would need to be sold anyway. Part of me wants to see if I can use better communication and boundaries to improve things. I want to see if she will get help. But I have no confidence that will work. I am scared to tell her that I want to leave. And I am SO SO tired of trying and dealing with this behavior for over 25 years. I am tired of giving and not receiving. So yeah, confused.

I am seeing a therapist (every week) and I also have my men's circle to support me. But open to thoughts or suggestions.

Thank you for reading and I hope it all makes sense.

[Mutt]

Hi and welcome - glad you found your way here.

25+ years of walking on eggshells, adjusting yourself to her anger, and not getting your needs met… that wears a person down. Even if things improved a bit with medication, the core dynamic didn’t really change.

You don’t need to solve whether this is BPD or not. The real question is: can this relationship, as it is, work for you anymore?

[ForeverDad]

Many here have walked in your shoes.  In some ways it was a struggle to survive since too often the spouse was sabotaging and obstructing emotionally, financially, parenting, etc.

We do have a Tools & Skills Workshops board (one of many) that lists many hard-won insights and concepts the community here has collected over the years.

If you do decide the marriage has failed, there may be a surprising outcome.  If you have a separate residence, the children may visit you more frequently or perhaps even return.  You never know.

Speaking of the children, even though they're grown, their childhood was severely impacted.  What you don't want is for them to choose their own relationships unwisely.  The examples they saw as kids and teens were not conducive for them to learn what normal home life should be like.  Just as you've benefited from counseling or therapy, they too can be encouraged to take advantage of the objective value of similar sessions.

[not2old2change]

For those following, I have found a way out.

But first, yes, I have decided that I need to get out. The problems are not going to change or get fixed.

I have a friend who is well-off, and has agreed to give me a loan when I am ready, to get an apartment to move to.

I have some projects to finish on the house. Eventually it will need to be sold, and if I can finish these major projects the house should sell for (significantly) more money, which will be better for me financially. We can pay off the debts and still have money left.

That means dealing with the problems for a few more months. I have been waiting for over 20 years for things to get better, I can get through a few more months.

It feels good to have a plan. More details another time when I have more time to wrote. Thank you for your support.

[ForeverDad]

You've been in a difficult and distressing home life for many years, but it no doubt feels better to have decided a different path for yourself.

Be aware that the risks of conflict and even DV are higher in the months just before and after separation.  Anything may happen, so be prepared whatever happens, whether shen tries to pull you back or she schemes to "frame you for mischief" or poses as a victim to put you at a disadvantage in a divorce.  People with BPD traits (pwBPD) may be disordered and mentally ill but they also have had decades to develop master skills of manipulation.  She may very well notice a slight change in your attitude or patterns.

Now even more than in the past you need to be especially calm and not even raise your voice to her.

[Pook075]

But first, yes, I have decided that I need to get out. The problems are not going to change or get fixed.

I was in a similar situation- early 40's, my BPD ex suddenly turned nasty every now and then.  It was never a full explosion like she had in her early 20's, but she'd snap at me over nothing and then pretend like it never happened.  Each year in her 40's, it got worse and she was also tested for early menapause.  I haven't heard many others talk about that here but I've always thought there was a direct connection.  My ex would have been the unconventional type as well.

I did want to point out that mood stabilizers can certainly help BPDs since...well, they help stabilize moods.  BPDs are given a wide range of prescriptions to treat the symptoms of their condition (depression, mood swings, etc) and they also tend to not like how the medicine makes them feel.  None of us are doctors or psychiatrists here so we can't talk that in depth, I just wanted you to know that medicines absolutely can help if the right combination is found by her doctor.

One more thing- getting out does not mean ending the marriage.  In many cases, it can improve it considerably.  This is a hard boundary just like anything else, saying that you're not going to accept the abuse anymore.  It could be a good first step if you decide to take it.

I wish you luck and please keep us updated!

[not2old2change]

I was in a similar situation- early 40's, my BPD ex suddenly turned nasty every now and then.  It was never a full explosion like she had in her early 20's, but she'd snap at me over nothing and then pretend like it never happened.  Each year in her 40's, it got worse and she was also tested for early menapause.  I haven't heard many others talk about that here but I've always thought there was a direct connection.  My ex would have been the unconventional type as well.

I did want to point out that mood stabilizers can certainly help BPDs since...well, they help stabilize moods.  BPDs are given a wide range of prescriptions to treat the symptoms of their condition (depression, mood swings, etc) and they also tend to not like how the medicine makes them feel.  None of us are doctors or psychiatrists here so we can't talk that in depth, I just wanted you to know that medicines absolutely can help if the right combination is found by her doctor.

One more thing- getting out does not mean ending the marriage.  In many cases, it can improve it considerably.  This is a hard boundary just like anything else, saying that you're not going to accept the abuse anymore.  It could be a good first step if you decide to take it.

I wish you luck and please keep us updated!

You've been in a difficult and distressing home life for many years, but it no doubt feels better to have decided a different path for yourself.

Be aware that the risks of conflict and even DV are higher in the months just before and after separation.  Anything may happen, so be prepared whatever happens, whether shen tries to pull you back or she schemes to "frame you for mischief" or poses as a victim to put you at a disadvantage in a divorce.  People with BPD traits (pwBPD) may be disordered and mentally ill but they also have had decades to develop master skills of manipulation.  She may very well notice a slight change in your attitude or patterns.

Now even more than in the past you need to be especially calm and not even raise your voice to her.

I do not actually feel better right now. I am scared. This could get really really bad. I know what I need to do, but getting there safely is going to be a challenge.

My attitudes and patterns have changed the past few months as I started to figure things out. It is hard to say if she has noticed. One thing that was a change is that I started to allow myself to show anger when she interrupted me. She has been doing this for many years, and I have tried talking to her about it. But when I started to get angry about it the behavior changed. She interrupts me a whole lot less now. But it seems to be a subconscious response, and she has not said anything about it.

I know that my anger (or any anger) is tough for her to handle. It is unfortunate, but the few times I have gotten really angry at her are the times that there have been changes. But I do not want her to be different because of fear.

But for the most part I do try to play the game.I keep doing all the things I have always done to keep things calm. Sometimes I dislike that I am doing it, but my therapist reminded me that I am doing it to keep myself emotionally safe.

There are some books on this site about ways to do the split. I really need to get and read one of those to help me find a safe way to extract myself.

Thank you for your time and thoughts.

[ForeverDad]

I do not actually feel better right now. I am scared. This could get really really bad. I know what I need to do, but getting there safely is going to be a challenge.

There is a light at the end of your dark tunnel, but don't think it is the express train bearing down on you.  Instead, see it as the sunshine on the other side, dim now but as you progress closer it will get brighter.  It will.  Now, to get there...

Over on our Book Club board we have reviewed many helpful books and the handbook by William Eddy will be especially helpful for you... Splitting: Protecting Yourself While Divorcing Someone with Borderline or Narcissistic Personality Disorder .  It's also available from Eddy website as an eBook.  Between this book, your therapist, your family law attorney and us here in peer support, you'll have many options when seeking guidance and strategies in the coming months.

Probably best for you to not order a copy yourself.  You don't want her to see it come in the mail or have a purchase record in a shared account.*  Perhaps one of your trusted friends can order it for you?  Note that your mutual friends (hers and yours) are not trusted friends right now.

* There will be things NOT to share with your spouse going forward.  Why?  When seeking to repair a damaged relationship, you would share to foster improved trust.  But once you've concluded the relationship is beyond repair, then some information is best not divulged or else you risk enabling her to sabotage you in some way.

Many of Eddy's warnings are aimed to help you avoid common mistakes and hidden traps as you maneuver through the unfeeling legal environment of family court.  Much of what you learn won't make much common sense to you, at least, not at first.  My lawyer never referred to Eddy's priceless book.  My lawyer trusted his experience and so appeared more as a "seat of the pants" guy.  Me?  I listened to both Eddy and my lawyer.