For those that are on "the other side"

[Before you can make things better, you have to stop making them worse...]

I am at the fork in the road, and coming closer to making a decision. I am 85% sure that that means separation. I would like to know from those that have gone through separation/divorce/breakup. Did you ever feel like you were giving up? My uBPDh refuses counseling unless I drag him there, has been diagnosed with Major Depression but denies it, and quite frankly I'm exhausted with dealing with constant drama, negativity, criticism, etc.

I am the type that will do anything for anyone, and I fear that this will add to his fear of abandonment, delve him deeper into depression if I leave. Actually, he would be the one to leave and go back to the US, since we live overseas, which I wish weren't the case. I guess this is the FOG that I'm in! Will it go away? The hardest part is just going through with it, right? We separated for 3 months last year and it was a blessed 3 months of peace for my daughter and me. I long for that for our lives. It's just this painful letting go and hoping that I'm not doing the wrong thing by possibly sending him deeper into depression or losing all hope in people (which he claims he hates). I'm meeting with my T this week to put a timetable in place. This is just a unnerving time because I'm delving into the unknown. But I want peace. Please tell me that's not selfish.   I guess in some ways it is.

[GreenTea]

I am at the fork in the road, and coming closer to making a decision. I am 85% sure that that means separation. I would like to know from those that have gone through separation/divorce/breakup. Did you ever feel like you were giving up? My uBPDh refuses counseling unless I drag him there, has been diagnosed with Major Depression but denies it, and quite frankly I'm exhausted with dealing with constant drama, negativity, criticism, etc.

I am the type that will do anything for anyone, and I fear that this will add to his fear of abandonment, delve him deeper into depression if I leave. Actually, he would be the one to leave and go back to the US, since we live overseas, which I wish weren't the case. I guess this is the FOG that I'm in! Will it go away? The hardest part is just going through with it, right? We separated for 3 months last year and it was a blessed 3 months of peace for my daughter and me. I long for that for our lives. It's just this painful letting go and hoping that I'm not doing the wrong thing by possibly sending him deeper into depression or losing all hope in people (which he claims he hates). I'm meeting with my T this week to put a timetable in place. This is just a unnerving time because I'm delving into the unknown. But I want peace. Please tell me that's not selfish.   I guess in some ways it is.

[gina louise]

greentea,

I left over two months ago, and it was the hardest decision. But even a month out I felt better... .  the FOG cleared, and kept clearing.

TRUE, I felt AWFUL for both of us when I left. Bawled my eyes out-certainly not what I'd anticipated doing to him, for myself, to US. I was cornered and felt I had no better option. And I am grateful that I did it. I can say that now... .  and I felt that way as little as one week apart.

Even so, it was a major decision and not one I took lightly.

With my HUSBAND raging and threatening me, telling me he was going to "ruin" my life, destroy me ... .  on and on  I felt badly for him as he was troubled, and struggling. I was just reacting to HIS drama.

NOW is the time , more than ever-to DO for yourself FIRST!

if his level of dysfunction makes it painful for you to continue with him-and we all have different limits- I'd say you have the RIGHT to care for yourself and your D.(is she his divorce, too?)

What made all the difference for me in leaving my HUSBAND was that even after 2 months-even after a month-he was NOT making any attempts to reconcile that included MY needs or MY feelings/concerns. We didn't have recycles over and over. Had only split up once, and that was prior to marriage.

So viewing my r/s from many paces back was huge for me. I saw it, saw HIM... .  for what they were.

That was a  for me. It was NEVER about US. It was only about HIM, for him. Having only one partner invested in saving the marriage would doom it, IMO. And that's what I was looking at.


good luck and let us know what happens,

GL

[Mind]

Gina - your reply was very helpful for me as well, as I feel very close to making a final decision as well.   I'm taking my situation very serious now and I really feel as I have no other option.  I receive emails saying he doesn't want to hurt me, he's sorry.  Last week was two very upsetting instances and proof of his behavior.  After I poured my heart out last weekend and told him how I feel, what I want in a marriage, he still proves he doesn't care, can't care, can't control himself, etc.

The one important thing I learned off this forum is to focus on ME.  That can be very difficult for many of us especially when we are caring, giving, loving individuals.  I've given 110 percent to my marriage.  He made it clear yesterday he could care less about me and my feelings.  I am literally in pain and live like this 24/7.  He's been sleeping downstairs for a week now and I am finally starting to feel like I can breathe comfortably in my own bedroom.

I've also learned that he will not end this. If it will end, I have to be the one to let him go.  It's a very difficult decision to make. He doesn't see the reality of it all and never will. 

Green Tea - You are protecting yourself and your child.  You deserve the best!  My H told me that during his surgery he felt so alone.  I can't imagine he'd feel better when the time comes. I cannot worry about that.  I have to live for me. I am only responsible for myself now.  Hang in there!

[gina louise]

Sparkle13,

My HUSBAND swore that he would NEVER file for divorce, that if I wanted it-I would have to file.

Guess what he DID 3 days after I fled his presence? I was still sleeping on the floor at my new rental... .  no furniture, no heat, no hot water, no fridge... .  still in shock and numb at what had happened to me, to him to us.

YES. He filed for D.

I now only look at his actions. Not his words.

Promise me the moon-but if you don't TRY, make an effort to deliver that moon to me-then you didn't MEAN a word of it!   

My HUSBAND can control himself around people who seem to matter less to him-superficial friends and co-workers. ALL the ones who might matter-family, wife, kids; we have ALL been alienated by his behavior towards us.

Admitting that it's about Him and has been from the beginning initially had me doubled over in real pain and grief. I SO wanted him to be my one and Only.

I was prepared to stick with him-even as troubled and fragile as he seemed. He had many fine qualities too.

Didn't he? Funny, smart, sensitive, neat and tidy... .  

But they weren't Partner-Qualities. He wasn't supportive, empathic, nurturing, helpful, dependable-the ground WE stood on together was always shifting with him

Being a stable, reliable husband and partner was NOT one of them. And that was what I NEEDED.

Good luck and god bless you,

GL

[Mind]

G - that's awful. Funny, my H looks golden in front of coworkers and friends.  He's the funny one!  With me, the one person who has been with him for 20 years, married 14, is the one he takes his anger out on. He acts like he's better than me.  I really, truly believe that there has to be an even level in a relationship.  Like yours, he is extremely unstable, nasty, not empathic at all, unsupportive.  Then on top of those qualities he is lacking, he is nasty to me.  I've given him chance after chance.  I've told him he's throwing everything away, me, his wife, seeing his kids, his house, happy times, memories.   Over!  Frankly, I can't see that he cares.  One day he says he cares.  Yesterday he could care less. That's not healthy for me!    Nothing matches up. 

Just like you, I need a stable, loving partner. I need someone who will let me love! I have to follow what I believe my heart is telling me.  I cannot go backwards anymore and get sucked into his world. I will not lose myself.     :'(

[BillTheCat]

I'm not on the other side, but I feel the same way you do.  I'm considering leaving because I don't see a path for my happiness in staying.

I feel this massive guilt in even considering a divorce.  I'm almost sure it will spiral my partner into depression, and I keep asking myself "how can I do that to someone I love". 

I guess we are deep in the FOG... .  staying out of obligation, and guilt.

[hithere]

Did you ever feel like you were giving up?

Yes, I felt like I was giving up, giving up on her, giving up on what I thought could be the perfect relationship, partner... .  but the truth is that those things never existed and would never exist, I had to accept that.  I made a conscious decision that I would not sacrifice my happiness for someone that could never really be happy

But I want peace. Please tell me that's not selfish.

Everyone deserves a chance at real happiness, it is not selfish to want it.  I left a year ago, got engaged to a wonderful woman last month and have lots of peace and more importantly hope for the future.

good luck

[GreenTea]

I feel this massive guilt in even considering a divorce.  I'm almost sure it will spiral my partner into depression, and I keep asking myself "how can I do that to someone I love". 

I guess we are deep in the FOG... .  staying out of obligation, and guilt.

And THIS is what is keeping me stuck. I am not the type of person who would EVER intentionally cause one pain. But like Sparkle said (and boy, do I feel with you, friend!), he's not going to change or be the one to end this. I've given him chance after chance. We were in counseling this past summer together, and the one thing that they kept telling him was that I need to feel "safe" in my own home. YES! Emotionally safe. I WANT to know, NEED to know that he has my back at all times. I'm realizing that that is never going to happen. I do feel guilt, feel as though I'm not holding true to my vows, etc. But I refuse to live a life of misery, a life of my family always being criticized, a life of blame, a life of no social activity. And yes, I can go out on my own within the marriage, and I do, but I always pay for it the next day with his anger, criticism, blame, etc.

Gina, I love your quote I now only look at his actions. Not his words. Several friends/family members told me that I will know by the fruit of his actions as to whether or not he's really changing. Five months later, we're still back at Square 1. Even after a separation, even after counseling. I have asked him what is one specific thing that I can change to make this marriage better, and all I ever get, all I have ever gotten is "if you don't know by now, then I'm not wasting my breath to tell you," THAT'S not communication. How can things with US ever get better, if that's the feedback I get?

I guess I just needed to get a few things off my chest, wrestle with a few last things. He is NOT going to change unless HE wants to. This IS mental illness. No matter where we are things will not change on his end, becuase in his perception there is no problem. I'm so thankful for this board!

[Mind]

GT: I'm having all of the same feelings as you are with this.  I am not a hurtful person by any nature. I can't be that way and I am the type to feel bad if someone and I are having a minor disagreement.  Same too, I feel bad about the vows.  But I asked him what is it he likes about me. He couldn't answer me.  He told me there's too much negative about me and not enough positives.   This morning I asked him a simple question and he turned it on me saying I'm passive aggressive.  I just looked at him.  He said to me, ":)on't look at me like that," in a nasty tone.  I'm so tired of him being darn right cruel and nasty to me. 

So I'm considering doing my own thing this weekend when he goes to his parents for the get together. He said he's taking 'his' kids to his birthday party. That I can come if I feel like it.  We've both been in counseling. We've been at appointments together. We've been to appointments apart.  Every day now there's some type of frustration and hurt I feel with this.  I don't see any improvement.  In fact, it's worse.

BTC - I like that - 'path for happiness.' I know my path in life has to be leading me to peace and happiness.  I'm just not sure how and I know that  it will get worse, but there has to be a much happier life out there for me instead of this.

It comes down to the fact that he isn't fighting for me, for us, for our family, for love.   He never will.

[Clearmind]

GT, it’s lovely you have a big heart – have you saved any for you?

I do hope I am not appearing harsh here – however – you are not his therapist – sometimes we need to step back and allow those we care about falter and fall. We need to relinquish control.

A very wise person once told me: Don't live your life as a "victim." Remember that while we can't control the world out there, we can learn how to control our reactions to whatever life hands us. Remember that you have a huge amount of power within to change what is not working in your life.

You may have become accustomed to propping him up and it served you well for a while – this cannot be sustained – this situation does not appear to be a joint effort. YOU ARE NOT SELFISH!

Who on earth in your childhood, told you need to look after everyone else but the one that really matters….you!

[cookiedough]

Mine broke up with me after I broke up with him but we got back together and then just when I thought I could go on with it because of how much he told me he loved me... .  BAM. It was like a bomb dropped and he took his "love" back apparently it was all a lie to him but 2 days before it wasn't

It was really hard for the first month and if you leave for sure which sounds like you are it is going to be hard for you. It feels like you can't live without them and you will probably think about all the good memories and the times when they were so sweet and how they held you ect.

But then (I started feeling like this about 3 days ago) something happens and you feel relief... .  at least I did. If mine had stayed nice and sweet and his feelings for me didn't change overnight everything would have been great! But honestly not having to deal with his moods and worrying about him is really nice.

I hope he'll be alright and I felt guilty for leaving too! Because he wanted me to stick around just not be romantic anymore (umm helloo 2 days before he did). And I've "stuck around" before until something switched in his head again and he had "romantic" feelings again.

These people have a lot of problems and it's really, really sad.

I felt guilty and like I wasn't strong enough to stay... .  yet again.

But, now I feel really good and realize that (like the person above said) I can't really help his situation and I'm probably making it worse because of our "emotional baggage".

Look out for yourself and you'll feel a lot better maybe not right away but you will.

[GreenTea]

GT, it’s lovely you have a big heart – have you saved any for you?

I do hope I am not appearing harsh here – however – you are not his therapist – sometimes we need to step back and allow those we care about falter and fall. We need to relinquish control.

A very wise person once told me: Don't live your life as a "victim." Remember that while we can't control the world out there, we can learn how to control our reactions to whatever life hands us. Remember that you have a huge amount of power within to change what is not working in your life.

You may have become accustomed to propping him up and it served you well for a while – this cannot be sustained – this situation does not appear to be a joint effort. YOU ARE NOT SELFISH!

Who on earth in your childhood, told you need to look after everyone else but the one that really matters….you!

Clearmind, thank you for this. Sometimes I need someone to be harsh with me.   A voice of reason. It's tough. My boundary of walking away and refusing to engage during his rages aren't even respected. He follows me from room to room until I leave with my daughter many times (it would have been 3x in less than a week last night if it wouldn't have escalated during our daughter's bathtime). Last night was another rage that started with my daughter eating a promised Starburst after she finished her dinner. Towards the end, he came back to our daughter's room where I was reading her books before bed to let me know that I asked for this and to remember that I chose how this evening ended. I was the one that wouldn't listen and that made him angry. HARDLY! All I did was walk away and tell him I won't discuss anything until we're both calm. I approached him again to talk about things this morning. To let him know that I want to talk and resolve whatever. He told me that he said all he needed to say last night. I was the one that ignored him.

He refuses to listen to my feelings. To separate for a while is the one choice I have not truly acted upon. Three months last year was too short, and honestly nothing has changed. I am now willing to go through the fire to get much desired peace.

Sparkle, keep me posted on what you choose.

[Mind]

GT - are you sure we're not married to the same man?   I'm so sorry there was another episode.  It sounds so familiar. I walk away when he starts blaming and gets angry at me for no reason. I set a firm boundary every time and tell him that I will not sit and listen to him belittling me.  I tell him I'm walking away now and will talk to him when things are calmer.  He gets even madder when I walk away!  He told me the reason our marriage isn't working is because I won't sit and listen to him. Really? Just more blaming.  I have a counseling appointment this afternoon so we'll see if I can receive any guidance to move forward.  He's back to not talking to me since yesterday's episode.  He told me I'm passive aggressive.   The only time he talks to me is on the weekends when he's hungry and wants to know what we're ordering.  I think it is so important to listen to your partner's feelings.  He doesn't care or listen to mine either, even after I had a heartfelt talk with him.   Gosh, he sent me that email just a few weeks ago saying he doesn't want to hurt me anymore.  Another lie.

Nothing has changed.  I am confident it will never change.  A friend of mine recommended we try another marriage counselor.  How can we be successful from that when he A. doesn't see reality B. continues to rage C. Has done all four of the areas that are proven to dissolve a relationship including criticism, contempt, stonewalling and defensiveness. D. He doesn't understand what he has done or how he can improve himself... .  

[Clearmind]

GT - can you help me understand this?

I am now willing to go through the fire to get much desired peace.

Rages are not fun: do you have a safe house to go to? - parents/friends if he rages at you?

If your partner was anything like mine - trying to explain, justify, resolve, especially the day after the incident was fruitless. Often rages are because they feel x,y,z at that very moment - the next morning is a whole different day!

[GreenTea]

Sparkle: I will admit our situations sound very similar. I'm seeing my T today as well!

Clearmind: The fire is the upcoming process of telling him and how to proceed from there. We live overseas due to my job (which I may have been enabling him by even applying for this but that's another story); he has none. He would be the one leaving with no house to go back to in the US. There is much tension with his family largely due to his behavior. He has no friends, of his own choosing. I feel that I'm just throwing him out. This would be much "easier" for me to do if it were our D5 and me leaving and HE had a job, but it's the other way around. I'm slowly beginning to accept that this again is NOT my problem (although I did make a vow 15 years ago, in sickness and in health). I have tried to let him know my feelings and needs for over 8 years now. He is a grown man blessed with SO much talent and intelligence. I do worry about his future. I do love and care for him a great deal. But I don't see happiness in our future as things are. I don't want to regret my life though either, and I know I will if I stay.

We (D5 and I) will probably go to a hotel if things get too bad. So few people here truly know the inside story or how bad things really are. He has never physically hurt me, and I don't worry that he will. Things thrown... .  yes, I can anticipate that.

[Clearmind]

Feel like you are leaving the abandoned child on the church steps? Yep – I hear you!

We all have our limits – you may need to think about what yours are – without putting so much emphasis on him!  He is a grown man after all and your post is more about poor him - what about you and D5.

Things being thrown is no small thing my friend! Maybe have a think about your reality right now – the facts – rather than the fantasy of what you wished it could be.

How can you make things better?

[GreenTea]

Feel like you are leaving the abandoned child on the church steps? Yep – I hear you!

This is exactly how I feel! And this goes counter to EVERYTHING I am. But what else can I do when the boundaries during his rages aren't respected, there is ZERO communication without my words being twisted into something that they were never meant to be, and there is never any social activity together with others (that part kills me as I'm a pretty social person)?

We all have our limits – you may need to think about what yours are – without putting so much emphasis on him!  He is a grown man after all and your post is more about poor him - what about you and D5.

Things being thrown is no small thing my friend! Maybe have a think about your reality right now – the facts – rather than the fantasy of what you wished it could be.

This is what I discussed with my T yesterday. I am so much like that proverbial from in the pot of boiling water, that I probably don't realize how unhealthy our relationship truly is. I know in my head, but in my heart I don't want us to be over. But that "us" is not who we are now, and won't be until we're both healthy... .  if that ever happens.

Honestly my limits are shot. He has never "hit" me, and for so many years I've made excuses for him or justified his behavior in some way. I am exhausted, and now that I am holding true to my boundaries, I'm met with anger and resistance every time. Being apart is the only thing that I can think of to make things better. :'(

[Clearmind]

Deciding what to do in a r/s is very difficult GreenTea! Not making a decision can be even harder.

I guess my suggestion would be in the first instance: when we get to the stage of feeling like we cannot leave because we feel we are abandoning our partners... .  our r/s has become very enmeshed. Our partners rely on us and we rely on them - for whatever reason! Enmeshment usually stems from both partners needing to fill a void and rely too heavily on the other for other persons happiness. Two independently happy people make a good union.

Start to build your support network outside your r/s - reconnect with friends, make time for others and your family, take up a hobby, do some of things you have always wanted to do yet didn't allow yourself too because you were so busy propping up your partner. Right now its not healthy - you can make things better by stepping back, allowing your partner to fail, not feeling guilty for allowing him to fail, and not feeling guilty for looking after yourself for a bit.

Dealing with Enmeshment and Codependence

And boundaries are important - especially if there is physical contact - leave the house. There is a great book called Boundaries and Relationships (C.Whitfield).

Best phrases for setting boundaries

The only thing I can suggest: we need to change to make things better, we may need to read up a little, work with your therapist.

All the best.

[GreenTea]

Clearmind: Thank you for these two links. I have read several books on boundaries: Cloud & Townsend (Boundaries and Boundaries in Marriage) and both of Randi Kreger's. The link for Boundaries doesn't work, but I would love to have the information inside.

The enmeshment article really helps. I've never heard the term before or read anything about it until now. Yes, it describes us. I have little freedom, esp. social freedom. That is my fault for not setting boundaries early in our relationship. I often think where would we be now if I wasn't the type of person that wanted to please others, if I were stronger in taking a stand from the start. But hindsight is all 20/20.

This past weekend was another tirade of projections in which he reminded me of everything our counselors had told us this past summer. Only these were things that they were telling HIM he needed to do. This weekend, he rewrote history insisting all of that was for ME. I just don't see a happy ending with us together.

I think about our daughter. She broke down and cried before bed and said how she has no more love in her.  :'( My heart broke. I finally got out of her that she didn't feel safe because of described rage above. Naturally! (I didn't either, but what do you do when you're in the middle of giving your daughter a bath and reading books? Dress her back up and leave?) I told her that the problem had nothing to do with her. This was a problem between mommy and daddy, and that no matter what we both love her very much.

[Clearmind]

I will check the link with staff and get back to you. In the meantime here is another https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=167368.

Bunch of suggested reading here https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=56203.0

Also at the top of the undecided board is a link to the decision making guidelines.

Please don't blame yourself GreenTea. Boundaries are still not guaranteed to work at all times.

I shed a tear for your dear daughter! It's not easy for kids and its not easy for you. You get to the stage of having no fight left.

Some therapy for your daughter maybe an idea.

With inner strength and knowledge (about you and him and the situation) your mind will become blatantly clear on what you need to do.

If you plan to leave or not - consider a leaving plan and discuss it with your therapist. A plan is the first step! Having one will give you the freedom to leave if it becomes unbearable.

With regard to his rages - the best thing to do is leave the house and advise him you'll talk when he calms down. Do you have the capacity to do that?

I find google searches easier - search for 'bpdfamily projection workshop' and another search 'bpdfamily dealing with accusations and blame'.

Part of us dealing with blame is to not take it seriously. Counsel yourself and try not to take it to heart. Do you take it to heart GT?

All things considered - BPD is hard to live with and there will most likely be conflict. Conflict can be reduced however not illuminated if the person is untreated.

Hugs to you

[GreenTea]

If you plan to leave or not - consider a leaving plan and discuss it with your therapist. A plan is the first step! Having one will give you the freedom to leave if it becomes unbearable.

With regard to his rages - the best thing to do is leave the house and advise him you'll talk when he calms down. Do you have the capacity to do that?

I am currently getting a plan together with my T as a sounding board. The rages... .  when he follows us to another room or refuses to stop after I tell him I'll be more than happy to talk when we're both calm, we do leave if it's before 6:00. This usually means eating out, which is a treat for my daughter... .  so there is a little positive!   However, there are times when his rages start as I'm giving her a bath on a school night. What do you do in that situation? Dry her off, dress her, leave her hair wet, and head off to a hotel for the night (which I have done once)? He usually calms down (AKA stomping off to bed) within an hour of me ignoring him anyway. But how do you handle a situation like that? Leave? And then keep Kindergarten daughter up past her bedtime? Or stay, knowing that he'll be in bed soon, and we can keep a "normal" bedtime routine?

Thank you, too, for the links. I know that he's projecting. I know that NOW. I didn't know it then, which is why I kept changing to prevent his moods, rages, etc. I just need to gain my confidence back within myself. My proof that he's projecting are others' perceptions of me, the confidence people have in me at my job, and what family/friends have been telling me for years. I just need to shed the curtain of denial. Accept this for what it is, and act.