Ud terminates relationship, but keeps attacking through e-mail. What's her goal?

[Parents! Get help here!]

So, I'm following up on my last topic and starting a new thread:

In the past, when she functioned better, our ud32 usually initiated contact after a bad exchange, and was trying to "smooth things over" by making it more equal, like "I was bad, you were bad, let's move on and forget about it" sometimes she would even apologize if she was forced to do so by the circumstances.

Now, I have said in this forum, that our ud32 has been in n/c, in this past year, but now I realize that is not entirely accurate:

She stated that she was terminating contact, but sends an occasional hostile e-mail attack.

A year ago, she got much worse in her behaviors (she is still a high-functioning invisible BP), and so far, she keeps initiating, but it is always very hostile (3 abusive e-mails in the last 8 months, with more and more lies, accusations and insults). And we don't know how to help her stop herself... .  She "terminated" the relationship several times over now, at first 'temporarily', now 'permanently' two times so far (we tried to calmly answer 2 of her e-mails with reinforcing boundaries of: we are open to a relationship, as long as there can be respectful communication without attacks).  She keeps writing, so we think that she is either trying to engage us, or trying to please her counselor (splitting them into all good, and splitting us into all bad). which one is it and how do we know?

I should explain: she says, she is now going to grief counseling for all the horrible things her dad supposedly did in the past, mainly "lying to her about 'everything', brainwashing her, not having taken care of her" etc., all of which are false accusations. Now as I have read, some books on BPD say that the wrong kind of t can do more harm than good. And we are suspecting that this might be the case. We don't know who the counselor is, but we know ud cannot afford much, and we suspect it might be a pro-bono church-based counselor, not a trained psychiatrist or psychologist.

So, back to the story - if she is trying to please her t, she might be trying to "confront her abuser", at least that's what she seems to be doing. Or, the other option is, she really wants a relationship, but does not know how to get it back, and therefore keeps terminating... .  

We really don't know which option is real (if any), or maybe even both at the same time.

Another option would be escalating behavior as a response to a boundary.

Bottom line: we don't know how to respond. Any suggestions?

Should we keep repeating the same line of 'no attacks' together with: we love you and are here for you, when you want to talk?

[pessim-optimist]

So, I'm following up on my last topic and starting a new thread:

In the past, when she functioned better, our ud32 usually initiated contact after a bad exchange, and was trying to "smooth things over" by making it more equal, like "I was bad, you were bad, let's move on and forget about it" sometimes she would even apologize if she was forced to do so by the circumstances.

Now, I have said in this forum, that our ud32 has been in n/c, in this past year, but now I realize that is not entirely accurate:

She stated that she was terminating contact, but sends an occasional hostile e-mail attack.

A year ago, she got much worse in her behaviors (she is still a high-functioning invisible BP), and so far, she keeps initiating, but it is always very hostile (3 abusive e-mails in the last 8 months, with more and more lies, accusations and insults). And we don't know how to help her stop herself... .  She "terminated" the relationship several times over now, at first 'temporarily', now 'permanently' two times so far (we tried to calmly answer 2 of her e-mails with reinforcing boundaries of: we are open to a relationship, as long as there can be respectful communication without attacks).  She keeps writing, so we think that she is either trying to engage us, or trying to please her counselor (splitting them into all good, and splitting us into all bad). which one is it and how do we know?

I should explain: she says, she is now going to grief counseling for all the horrible things her dad supposedly did in the past, mainly "lying to her about 'everything', brainwashing her, not having taken care of her" etc., all of which are false accusations. Now as I have read, some books on BPD say that the wrong kind of t can do more harm than good. And we are suspecting that this might be the case. We don't know who the counselor is, but we know ud cannot afford much, and we suspect it might be a pro-bono church-based counselor, not a trained psychiatrist or psychologist.

So, back to the story - if she is trying to please her t, she might be trying to "confront her abuser", at least that's what she seems to be doing. Or, the other option is, she really wants a relationship, but does not know how to get it back, and therefore keeps terminating... .  

We really don't know which option is real (if any), or maybe even both at the same time.

Another option would be escalating behavior as a response to a boundary.

Bottom line: we don't know how to respond. Any suggestions?

Should we keep repeating the same line of 'no attacks' together with: we love you and are here for you, when you want to talk?

Our objective is to better understand the struggles our child faces and to learn the skills to improve our relationship and provide a supportive environment and also improve on our own emotional responses, attitudes and effectiveness as a family leaders

[asunder]

We love you and we want you in our life, but not at the expense of tolerating false accusations or abuse.  We invite you to rewrite your last email minus the false allegations.

[sunshineplease]

Wow, pessim-optimist, that's gotta hurt. I think your "no to attacks but yes to talking" approach makes sense. At the same time, I might try to validate her feelings of anger and grief which, though you can see are not based in reality, feel very real to her. 

[Survive2012]

Dear Pessim-optimist,

My feelig is that if your daughter keeps on writing to you, it means she "wants" you. It is strange to write several times to someone telling you are going to end the relationship. Therefore, I think she loves you and she needs you despite all the anger she feels inside her.

Of course, she is an adult, and this is good for you because you can tell her she can get in touch with you whenever she wants: you love her and you'll always be there for her, BUT, as the other posts say, NOT to hear accusations NOR to hear blame. JUST to be together, the three of you, and spend time because you want to be together.

That's it. She has to understand there is a limit in what she can say or do to tou because you are independent now.

I really hope things are going to be easy for you. I hope she is going to come home with a nice smile and just say :"Hello, how are you?"

Be strong, take care of yourself,

Survive

[jojospal]

You may want to respond to her using the SET technique. I actually did this with my dd31 yesterday on her birthday.

One of the weapons she tends to throw my way is talking about her relationship with her father, ( I'm pretty convinced he is BPD too, although never diagnosed) It used to really get to me, her exhaulting how "wonderful" he was,how much he loves her, and vice-versa. This guy abandoned her when she was 5 and came back into her life when she was 16, showering her with gifts and attention. None was shared with her blood sister, as she could see it for what it was.

Yesterday was ddBPD birthday and her father called her to wish her a happy day. She got mad at him because he hasn't contacted her in over seven months. The last contact they had, he had offered her a place to stay while she and her husband were going through a difficult time.(both were drug addicted and were in and out of re-hab) It took her a few days to decide to go, but when she did, he stopped answering her calls. She went all over facebook saying she had a broken heart and how her whole birthday was ruined because of him.

I  instant messaged her and used the SET programme.

Sympathy: " I am so sorry you are feeling so sad and angry at your father. I am sure he loves you the best he knows how."

Empathy:   " I remember having similar feelings about my own father. (He was absent, an alcoholic.) It is really hard when they dissapoint you, isn't it?"

Truth: " Remember what you learned in therapy, that you cannot control another person's actions, but you can control how you react to them. Today is your birthday, a happy day!"

I then went on to reminise about the day she was born, how so many family and friends came by to see her at the hospital, even the weather on that day, cold and snowy. I said, " I have loved you from that moment, every day since and all the days to come."

She responded to that by thanking me and, that she was now crying happy tears.

Also, a great coping skill to learn is, the nasty stuff they say to you is all just symptoms of the illness. Like diarrhea and vomitting are symptoms of the flu. I have learned to disregard the personal attacks by mentally mopping them up and flushing them down the toilet.

(In the context that we didn't react or blame our sick child when they did get the flu and puked or pooped on us)

We tend to spend too much time defending our reality as opposed to theirs. Their reality, and memories are based on their feelings and emotions at any given time. They are not 'wrong' to them, but we must remember that their thinking patterns are abnormal.

[pessim-optimist]

Thank you for your support and suggestions,

Still getting my sea-legs on this board: actually, I should be consistently using a more accurate usd32 (undiagnosed step-daughter)  What adds to the problem is that I am much younger than my husband, which would be hard for any child to deal with, much more so with a BP. That being said, I should explain that I come from a different country, where I grew up in a very different culture - more socially conservative and less developed, and so here in the US I feel much older than my chronological age. With my commitment to my h, over 10 years ago, I accepted my commitment to love his daughters. And I really am fully emotionally involved, heart-aches and all.

After my husband's adversarial divorce with a possible BPex, usd stayed with her dad as she had bad chemistry with her mom; the price, however, was the younger d being awarded to her mom, and over the years being alienated from her dad. That's another source of pain for us. I hope I'm not too confusing, I tried to write brief introduction in my first post, and ever since then I keep adding a detail here, a detail there, and it's like pulling a string on a sweater... .  

So, fast-forward, usd32 is married, has 3 kids (12, 10, 8). Lots of fighting and emotional, verbal and sometimes physical abuse. Now we've been in a semi-non communication, with those e-mails I talked about, for the last 8 months... .  

We're in the waiting stage now, not knowing if or when she will decide to get back to us, and if she'll calm down or bring out more outrageous stuff. (What an unpleasant stage - the roller-coaster of feelings considering all the possibilities based on past situations   )

I'm really worried about that counselor... .  If he/she uses the "talking therapy", and if she encourages our highly suggestible ud32, in re-telling her memories as a way of "getting better" and if as V. Porr writes in her book "Overcoming BPD" that the re-telling of painful memories enhances the past and present pain, then we really have a downward spiral on our hands.

I also think she wants a relationship. But in this last year and especially the last 8 months we feel like she is trying to wrestle us down like an alligator into conforming to her all bad view of us; which would not only be validating the invalid, but it would also sabotage her goal of having a relationship with someone, who loves her. It's like the catch 22: if we agreed, that we are bad, she should not want to be around us. But if we don't agree, she can't be around us, because she keeps fighting to convince us, we're bad... .  

Unfortunately, we think she was possibly able to sway her husband, or maybe he just does not know what to do, so he stays out of any communication. We did not have the opportunity to tell him about our discovery of BPD.

In the past she would play one family member off-of another "divide and conquer" style, so I saw her interfering in my husband's and his other daughter's relationship, often making things worse.

Why am I talking about this? Well, it was eerily strange that one day after the younger d called her dad, that maybe now she was old enough to deal with some issues and that she would want to get closer, our usd32 made contact also with her second e-mail, trying to terminate her sister's relationship with her dad also. H called the younger sister, and she said, she knew about it but wanted to stay in touch. Well, now she hasn't answered several phone calls in almost 2 months... .  Have we lost her also all over again because of her BP sister?  

Sorry, it's very long, thank you for listening, thank you for this forum, it's so heart-breaking. And not knowing what's going on is just plain torture.

[qcarolr]

pessim-optimist   

Thanks for sharing more of your life story. It is so complex, and USD keeps the pot stirred. You have courage to keep the connection open with both the sd's. You and your dh are an important part of their lives ,even if they cannot acknowledge this. Validation is really the best tool in my bag when it comes to diffusing my BPDDD26 in her contacts with me. It feels just 'wrong' sometimes to be validating their feelings about past events and at the same time not be accepting of the actions. I practice on everyone around me to get better at it with my D.

She may know what you boundaries are about the abusiveness of her contacts. Maybe a short response could include something about how hard it is to have all these scary feelings and memories, that you will always love her and hope she can work through them with others in her life right now.

qcr  

Don't really know if that would work, just an idea.

[pessim-optimist]

Thank you qcr,

We're trying to think of what to validate and how. I am SO lost in this situation.

I can already hear some of her responses in my head, like: "You bet it is hard to feel this way and it's all because of what YOU DID to ME, so why don't you at least apologize for doing this?" Where "this" would be a complete fabrication?

She tried that angle in the past and it didn't go well... .  In the long run, now she keeps calling my husband a liar in her e-mails, because his view of the past is different than hers. And she won't let up on that topic... .  

Is there a way to break the cycle?

After you have validated her feelings, how do you gently steer her away from the issue at hand, so you don't have to tell her, you disagree, or see things differently (since that is a sure trigger to be called a liar again)?

[qcarolr]

Is there a way to break the cycle?

After you have validated her feelings, how do you gently steer her away from the issue at hand, so you don't have to tell her, you disagree, or see things differently (since that is a sure trigger to be called a liar again)?

One of the hardest parts of validation for me is letting go of the 'but' at the end of the comment or question that connects with the feelings. This is letting go of defending my position, offering advice, and accepting that I am powerless to make my DD26 change herself in any way. The next hardest part is accepting that I cannot change my dh either.

All I can do is model the best validating that I can, and wait to see what happens.

It also helps me to understand that I can get blocked from being able to think - which is required to be in a validating state of mind - by my own needs to feel safe. Once my gut tightens up and my breathing gets quicker I click into self-protection mode as if on auto pilot or 'robot mode'. Only by my learning to become aware of these physical responses, and the emotion based thoughts that go with it, can I stop and re-engage my thinking. CBT and DBT skills have helped me so much in gaining the self-control.

With emails, or text messages, there is this gift of having time to go through this process in private. Or with my dh. Before I respond. Your being here at bpdfamily.com is a great step in that direction - this is a really good thread to get support in figuring out a new way to think about your relationship with your D. Sometimes when I am able to reconnect in my own brain, and then in my responses to my DD, she is able to also stop-think-connect with me. In the past it could take weeks for her to do this - now she can sometimes get there in a day or two. It so depends on the other stressors in her life how quickly she can regain her balance. It has actually taken about 3 years to get to this point in our r/s - with me taking charge of changing how I interact within myself and then with her.

What do you think about this perspective? Considering how our body (vagal nerve) - emotion(limbic brain) - thinking(frontal lobe brain) - and the connecting structures that allow these to work together - or how to unblock things when they are not working together. In learning more about the neuropshysiology of how all this works - and how we have a natural drive to be connected to each other that does get blocked - motivates me to keep practicing and learning all these skills that support these systems.

Having great compassion and love, desire to be in a r/s with my D, and using validation and values-based boundaries with myself, my family/friends/acquaintances and ultimately my D - this all leads to ME being in balance. Then I can connect in more healthy ways.

qcr  

[pessim-optimist]

qcr,

those are all very good points. I hope to get to this position someday. We're just not connecting right now at all and don't know how to get there... .  

I see what you are saying, and agree, but so far it is just too far to reach. I will save our conversation and try digest it over time.

I am a very logical person, so no wonder we had a failure to communicate in the past   , and even though I am a woman, I am just the analytical type and tend to push my emotions aside for the moment (good impulse control, but not great awareness of what I actually feel until afterward).

Anyway, like I just said, still stuck in the initial phases of this process of: ok, got past point one, now what do I say?

Let's say the SET process:

S "I am concerned to hear that you are scared... .  bla bla." E "You must feel awful believing... .  bla bla."

T "?    ?" (Because telling her the truth in the past did not work, and validating the invalid is not a good idea).

So, I am thinking about some re-direction... .  to a different topic?

What did the first year look like? I mean - what do you think was the most important step your d made and what prompted it? What was the single biggest change in you?

[qcarolr]

Well, the first year was awful. I have a restraing order to keep DD away from me and gd, 4 at the time, after a very very bad incident in our home with gd there. DD was living on the streets homeless within a community of other homeless - very scary dysfunctional place for her to be - she survived this for 20 months and is still bonded to this community in many ways. I mostly cried for the first 6 months.

I called this my "detachment with anger and resentment" period. Someone here at bpdfamily.com inlcuded a quote about detachment with love from the Al Anon principles, and I searched this out first online then in a very parent oriented Al Anon group. I was in that group for the next two years. I believe this experience opened my mind and heart to a new perspective that allowed so much other information into me.

I too am very analytical - and realize now that this is one of my main shields for avoidance and dissociation from all the painful emotions. That has been my biggest challenge - finding the path to connect to my emotional mind to balance this huge thinking mind --searching for wisemind. This perspective is from learning DBT skills. Reading here, doing workbooks, taking a parent DBT skills class, then lots and lots of practice with everyone in my life first. Then gradually able to apply with DD.

Radical Acceptance - learning to love my DD just how she is in any moment. This is unconditional acceptance from a place of love and compassion, even as I was hanging up the phone, turning it off for several hours.

Discovering my own values and figuring out the one or two values that were most important. Then setting self-protective boudnaries around those values. Giving up most of my expectations for any changes in DD - giving up "boundaries" to change her behavior. Now that she is in our home, there are some rules - house rules that apply to everyone. This is different than boundaries that are for me.

Sorry this got so long - love to talk from my big, analytical mind. So many words

Keep on keeping on. It gets easier as the skills are used, and more natural as they become integrated into your very being. It is sometimes painful - for me the journey has been worth the pain.

qcr  

DD did not accept my seperation from her - this is a different response from some here. She kept reaching out - "You are my family, I need you, How can you do this to me". As I became more able to respond to her from an internal balanced place of love and compassion things gradually got better.

Our objective is to better understand the struggles our child faces and to learn the skills to improve our relationship and provide a supportive environment and also improve on our own emotional responses, attitudes and effectiveness as a family leaders

[qcarolr]

The other thing that comes to mind: projection. When DD reaches out with anger, rage and most especially blaming me for all that is wrong in her life, I can now stop and breath and realize she is in too much pain to own, take responsibility for and survive. This allows the compassion and acceptance to come to the surface and short circuits accepting the projection (becoming the victim) or replying in my own defense and judgements (becoming the persecutor, shifting her into the victim role). I often would start out trying to fix this - resucer role which inevitably opened the door for her to be persecutor with me.

Learning about the victim triange, and how to jump off with all the tools listed below, helped me a lot as well. Have you checked this out yet?  Here is the link:

The Three Faces of Victim,  The Drama Triangle

qcr