So is being calm and neutral not good?

[pessim-optimist]

Reading through V. Porr's "Overcoming BPD". And maybe I just need to keep reading. But wondering about neutral facial expressions.

It says that in an experiment, BPs were recognizing positive and negative facial expressions correctly, but they were strongly and negatively mis-recognizing neutral facial expressions, reading all kinds of bad situations into the picture.

So far, I have read that when we communicate with our BPs, we should remain calm and unemotional, when they are getting dysregulated and are escalating into a rage... .  I thought that neutral face would be a good idea. But the above seems to contradict that.  

Should we always try to have at least a slightly positive expression when encountering rage?

Does anyone have specific bad or good experiences regarding neutral facial expression when talking to a raging pwBPD?

Our objective is to better understand the struggles our child faces and to learn the skills to improve our relationship and provide a supportive environment and also improve on our own emotional responses, attitudes and effectiveness as a family leaders

[lbjnltx]

I think that the "neutral expression" is sometimes referred to as medium chill.

I see it as a lower level coping skill than wisemind responses that show care and concern without emotionally charged responses. Calm with a caring expression is a better option.

It is like comparing "I don't really care" to "I'm concerned about you"... .  huge difference.  When a person is already hypersensitive to abandonment (real or imagined/physical or emotional) "I don't care" expressions could be very painful and cause even more emotional pain for them.

Here is a link to the workshop on wisemind:

Triggering and Mindfulness and Wise Mind

Hope that helps answer your very good question!

[jellibeans]

I am just reading this part of Valerie's book... .  it says to mirror their tone of voice. So if they are just excited about something and they are telling you about it... .  it won't be good to respond in a monotone voice with no expression... .  they read this as you don't unstained the problem... .  mirroring the emotion let them know that you understand... .  I thought this part of the book was very interesting. I had been trying to be really calm but I think that might have frustrated my dd.

[opheliasmom]

I have had poor results with "neutral".  My daughter accuses me of being a robot.  Our conversations seem more successful when I show compassion and try not to have any negative expressions. 

[pessim-optimist]

I think that the "neutral expression" is sometimes referred to as medium chill.

Calm with a caring expression is a better option.

It is like comparing "I don't really care" to "I'm concerned about you"... .  huge difference.

Here is a link to the workshop on wisemind:

Triggering and Mindfulness and Wise Mind

Thank you, that totally makes sense. I'll look up the workshop.

I have had poor results with "neutral".  My daughter accuses me of being a robot.  Our conversations seem more successful when I show compassion and try not to have any negative expressions. 

Thank you also,

Now that I think of it: for them to feel like they are understood, they need us to understand their emotions and relate it to them. On the other hand, they feel out of control, so they need us to not get out of control... .  

I am just reading this part of Valerie's book... .  it says to mirror their tone of voice. ... .  I had been trying to be really calm but I think that might have frustrated my dd.

I am not there yet, but have browsed before and wondered about some other books seemingly saying the opposite. Now I think it is just a little more complex. Whew, SO MUCH TO LEARN!

[Survive2012]

I seem to always get it wrong with my son 15: neutral makes him really enrage... .  understanding and empathic he says "Why are you so friendly with me?" in an angry voice, sad makes him laugh nervously and smily is provoking... .  I have tried all kind of expressions but no one seems to work. It might be because none of them is spontaneous any longer. Is it because I am always afraid of his reaction? Anyway, the worst expression is the neutral one.

Survive

[lovesjazz]

I wonder if the medium chill is more about not reacting to their behaviors. Our ds would just feed off us reacting to what he does because it showed we were frustrated, and eventually break down... .  totally our fault.  Im not sure if the "I dont care attitude"  is what the medium chill is conveying.

[lbjnltx]

I wonder if the medium chill is more about not reacting to their behaviors. Our ds would just feed off us reacting to what he does because it showed we were frustrated, and eventually break down... .  totally our fault.  Im not sure if the "I dont care attitude"  is what the medium chill is conveying.

The concept of medium chill is that the blame for our reactions go onto the other person, we justify our distant or neutral responses by holding them accountable for triggering us.

versus

Being accountable for our own thoughts and feelings and how our actions/responses affect others... .  wisemind.

[qcarolr]

Creating a neutral space for myself - medium chill - is about taking care of me when, for whatever the reason, I am unable to get to wisemind in a chaotic situation. It is a self-protective response - a time out. It is a tool that works when it is all that I can hold onto.

As I become more than I have been before, and can come to a rough situation from a connected, compassionate, validating internal place -- this is being able to put the other person's needs ahead of my own.

This is only successful for me when I have first taken care of my own needs, and am not looking to the other person to take care of

them for me with their behaviors.  It moves the event away from such a heavy focus on 'behavior' toward a more open focus on connecting.

Have to think some more -- too many interruptions here to finish this now.

qcr  

[pessim-optimist]

Following up on "medium chill":

Does that mean that the medium chill is a better response for MY SAKE only if I cannot do better, regardless of the pwBPD's reaction?

Meaning - if it triggers the pwBPD so much, for their sake would it be the same as if we got angry in response, or does it still model better behaviors regardless of the fact that it triggers them and therefore is better for them as well?

[lbjnltx]

Medium chill is based on emotional distance to protect self from harm.  It does nothing to help the relationship or the pwBPD.

Remaining calm in the face of rage takes skills of the highest level when you are emotionally attached to someone, like our children. 

Many are on the journey towards higher skills, it is a process.  Some, including myself found the safe space to learn and begin to practice these higher level skills by setting boundaries.

My boundaries gave me a sense of peace during chaos and in that safe, peaceful place I was/am able to respond calmly, validate, ask validating questions and make decisions.

Our objective is to better understand the struggles our child faces and to learn the skills to improve our relationship and provide a supportive environment and also improve on our own emotional responses, attitudes and effectiveness as a family leaders

[pessim-optimist]

Thank you lbj,

we're still in that stage of setting boundaries... .  Trying to learn as much as we can about the more advanced stuff, so we're ready if the time comes.

So far though, our boundaries have only earned us more trouble than ever - our relationship with usd32 has never been so bad, the splitting has never reached this level, or lasted this long and we see no way out... .  

[lbjnltx]

It is common for pwBPD to push hard up against those boundaries to see how solid they are.  Sometimes it does get worse before it gets better.

[pessim-optimist]

So would you still be hopeful after a year of broken relationship with nc for 8 months except 3 very nasty e-mails, that it still might be a reaction to a boundary?

At what point would you conclude it's something else?

[lbjnltx]

Boundaries are based on our core values.  Our values are our own and for our protection.  Protecting self is a healthy thing.  PwBPD generally lack boundaries and don't understand why others need boundaries.  The truth is, boundaries are needed for  healthy relationships.

I don't know what boundaries you set.  With my d16, she has learned that my boundaries are not negotiable.  She will attempt to negotiate around them and accepts them when she finds out they are not negotiable.

My situation is different than yours in that my d16 is considered "recovered" and still lives in our home.  If she were to cut off contact as a result of my valued based boundaries then I would accept that as her choice.  If she contacted me on occassion to tell me how terrible I am because of a boundary I set then I would discern that she is still testing my boundary and wanting contact.  She may want contact on her terms and if it doesn't violate my boundaries then I would be willing to have conversations with her.

Do you think you set a boundary that caused her to cut off communication with you?  If so, re examine your boundary.  Is it important to you?  Is it based on your core values? 

[pessim-optimist]

Well, it IS complicated after all, but basically last year she was having a lot of trouble in her marriage and asking her dad to side with her against her husband (that was before we knew about BPD). My husband tried his best to be objective, and told her that it is not all her husband, that she has a part in it too. She then told him to leave her house if he thought she had any part in it, and he calmly did.

Next, she asked him to watch his kids before and after school every day, since she might be getting a job; he told her no, and that there are subsidized state services for that, and to try to look into that.

Around that time she started talking more to her mom (whom she was mostly estranged from in the past 3 years), and the next thing we knew, she started bringing out old stories about what happened in the divorce (20 years ago), who did what, who was at fault etc.

Her dad talked to her about that extensively during the years, and she knew all the stories from both sides.

She mostly held her mom as the bad guy since she never had a good chemistry and bond with her since she was little. Sometimes switching back and forth between the parents. But this time she REALLY split her dad into all extremely bad. This has never happened before... .  

So, and now I am coming to the BOUNDARY: her dad told her, that they'll just have to agree to disagree, but that he was not going to talk about the divorce with her any more. Which she accepted for about a week, and then she came back with more bad stuff, and then it gradually escalated into a broader time-span of her "whole life" and broadened into personal attacks and accusing her dad of neglect and abuse, being a liar, never loving her etc. etc.

So we gradually had to broaden the boundary to: "communication with respect, and no attacks"

Which I see is not so clear-cut of a boundary, but we could not come up with anything better, since it is so broad... .  

Hope that answers your question. I'm happy for any comments.

[pessim-optimist]

Addition:

Yes, I think we set a boundary that led to cutting off of the r/s.

But it is extremely important to us - it's been SO stressful trying to deal with the divorce fallout, and we want to move forward.

Rehashing the issues over and over with no resolution is just more stress we are not able to bear any more.

And is it based on our core values? I don't know the answer to that question, I still don't know how to tell - would you say so, based on what I said?

[lbjnltx]

Hello pessim-optimist,

I think that most all of us have the value based boundary of "communication with respect".  I also think that you understand that your usd32 has your husband in the "all bad" place in her emotional mind.

When we set the boundary of respectful communication we need to provide a way for the pwBPD to stay connected to us. It is easy to say "don't", more difficult to say "do".  As Rosenberg states in NVC, "It's hard to do a don't".

So, let them know what we will do to protect our boundary while staying connected to them.  Also, provide a way for them to communicate with us within that boundary. IE:

If our communication becomes disrespectful we will need to end the conversation until everyone is calm and then we can come back together.  At that time it will be most beneficial for everyone to use "I feel" and "I need" statements.

"I feel" and "I need" statements steer clear of blame, makes us identify our emotions, identify our needs, and make validation easier.  They keep the focus in the moment while dealing with past pains that need healing for a better future.  IE:

"I feel confused and upset when I am being yelled at". "I need to be calm when we talk"

PwBPD have trouble identifying their emotions and what needs they are trying to meet.  Making non judgemental assumptions and asking validating questions can help them figure it out.  IE:

"I would like to understand and help"

"It sounds like you are frustrated, is that right?  What do you feel is causing this frustration?"  

"What do you need from me?"

lbj

[Kelly995]

I've read this entire thread and understand the concept of being neutral and distancing oneself.  Though I admit I do a better job acting the part than actual distance.

But, from my experience, the more un phased I am by my borderline the more it enrages her and the more she picks at me.  If I calmly tell her something is inappropriate she will call my husband 30 minutes after we leave to rehash it.

[qcarolr]

I've read this entire thread and understand the concept of being neutral and distancing oneself.  Though I admit I do a better job acting the part than actual distance.

But, from my experience, the more un phased I am by my borderline the more it enrages her and the more she picks at me.  If I calmly tell her something is inappropriate she will call my husband 30 minutes after we leave to rehash it.

How do you respond to the 'rehash' attempts? Staying connected sometimes means responding with some of your emotions revealed, in a validating way. We do have needs. I have found the "I feel" "When you" I need" eventually works if I can maintain this over time.

When DD was homeless - we had evicted her and I got a no contact order - I kept connected by paying for her cell phone and asking the court for voice and text contact. When she was yelling at me, blaming me (I tended to take this personal and internalize it - there were a lot of issues when she was young and I was struggling with bipolar II), etc. I would say I am hanging up and turning my phone off for 2 hours (or until tomorrow) so we can both calm down. Then I did just that. Then I waited for her to contact me - so hard. Most often it was several days. Lots and lots of 'do-overs' too.

My primary value is to be treated with kindness and respect and I will treat others with kindness and respect. And I let go of all expectations for any change in DD - so hard. And over time things got better. Still lots of do-overs.

It is a lot to take in, learn, practice practice practice with everyone in my life. Do not give up. Take care of your needs so you have courage and strength. Get your own support going - here and in your family/friend circle. Find a T if needed that has some understanding and acceptance of BPD and DBT -- non judgemental.

This is getting way too long - sorry if it sounds like a lecture. I am very passionate about this topic as it is my HOPE.

qcr  

[pessim-optimist]

How do you respond to the 'rehash' attempts? Staying connected sometimes means responding with some of your emotions revealed, in a validating way. We do have needs. I have found the "I feel" "When you" I need" eventually works if I can maintain this over time.

... .  

My primary value is to be treated with kindness and respect and I will treat others with kindness and respect. And I let go of all expectations for any change in DD - so hard. And over time things got better. Still lots of do-overs.

... .  

Thank you qcr for all your sharing, thank you lbj and others for your posts and ideas.

That's the thing we're struggling with with my usd32; we're definitely in the learning process, and we have often not revealed the emotions or we have, when we got really angry - NOT productive. But now, with the frequency of communication through an e-mail attack every 4 months or so, there isn't much opportunity for do-overs. I'd say no margin for error, actually.

Right now, we would be ecstatic if there was any communication with kindness and respect, instead of the attacks.

Right now we don't see a way out. Is this going to be final?

I possibly also have a brother with BPD and he has isolated himself from everybody in the family about 10 years ago... .  

So, needless to say, I'm worried... .  

Our objective is to better understand the struggles our child faces and to learn the skills to improve our relationship and provide a supportive environment and also improve on our own emotional responses, attitudes and effectiveness as a family leaders