How long do you wait?

[Parents! Get help here!]

I'm going to quote Shari Manning from her book "Loving Someone with BPD" regarding limits: "Unfortunately, research is really clear that there is a point of no return with limits. When they are pushed too far, they and the relationship are irreparable." page 85.

I think that that has possibly happened with our usd32.

We definitely feel that something has been lost forever and if the relationship is ever re-kindled, it's never going to be the same.

How long would you/did you wait for your adult child to reply/initiate after a breakdown in a relationship after you have put the ball in their court and there is n/c?

Did you try to re-engage, or wait for them, even if it was several years? (it hasn't been too long with our usd, but my brother has been nc with the family for years and we all think he has walked away for good... .  ).

I have two questions:

1. What has been the longest time of n/c between you and your adult child before the relationship was successfully re-kindled?

2. Who initiated, and how?

[pessim-optimist]

I'm going to quote Shari Manning from her book "Loving Someone with BPD" regarding limits: "Unfortunately, research is really clear that there is a point of no return with limits. When they are pushed too far, they and the relationship are irreparable." page 85.

I think that that has possibly happened with our usd32.

We definitely feel that something has been lost forever and if the relationship is ever re-kindled, it's never going to be the same.

How long would you/did you wait for your adult child to reply/initiate after a breakdown in a relationship after you have put the ball in their court and there is n/c?

Did you try to re-engage, or wait for them, even if it was several years? (it hasn't been too long with our usd, but my brother has been nc with the family for years and we all think he has walked away for good... .  ).

I have two questions:

1. What has been the longest time of n/c between you and your adult child before the relationship was successfully re-kindled?

2. Who initiated, and how?

Our objective is to better understand the struggles our child faces and to learn the skills to improve our relationship and provide a supportive environment and also improve on our own emotional responses, attitudes and effectiveness as a family leaders

[Kate4queen]

I'm going to quote Shari Manning from her book "Loving Someone with BPD" regarding limits: "Unfortunately, research is really clear that there is a point of no return with limits. When they are pushed too far, they and the relationship are irreparable." page 85.

I think that that has possibly happened with our usd32.

We definitely feel that something has been lost forever and if the relationship is ever re-kindled, it's never going to be the same.

How long would you/did you wait for your adult child to reply/initiate after a breakdown in a relationship after you have put the ball in their court and there is n/c?

Did you try to re-engage, or wait for them, even if it was several years? (it hasn't been too long with our usd, but my brother has been nc with the family for years and we all think he has walked away for good... .  ).

I have two questions:

1. What has been the longest time of n/c between you and your adult child before the relationship was successfully re-kindled?

2. Who initiated, and how?

I feel like we reached that point of no return with my 21 yr old son. the way he chose to break off contact was so intentionally awful and pointed in so many hurtful ways that I don't think my dh and I will ever get over it.

We haven't seen him face to face since November of last year or spoken to him other than by email.

We only email him back when he asks us for something, (which is usually about money because we are funding his education etc.)

He's currently trying to persuade us to meet him face to face because he says he's changed, but we're still not ready to do that-it would be too upsetting.I don't trust him not to turn it into an emotional savaging again and I just can't handle that at the moment-too fragile.

-so I suppose he is the one initiating contact at the moment, and we are the ones who are keeping it very much on our terms, with our boundaries in place, leaving out emotions and dealing with the practical issues at hand.

I suspect as soon as he doesn't need our money, he'll be the one who will break off contact and not want to see us again. I know this in my soul so I suppose, I'm protecting myself from hoping again.

[oglobaith]

    In our experience with uBPDdd 27 nc has lasted at the most about two months.  During this time we have sent caring text messages frequently and on a number of occassions we have reported her as missing when we haven't known where she was.  We just cling on knowing that there's no-one else who cares for her in the way we do. I guess it varies greatly really with the individuals concerned doesn't it - we can all only cope with so much and must avoid our lives being destroyed completely by this disorder and if the only way to acheive that is to remain nc, who can say what's right for another person?  It's very difficult getting the balance between just getting on with your life and at the same time caring isn't it?

[somuchlove]

I have gone months without contact with my dd.  Since she has the 3 children, i find they will call and she has always been wonderful with that.  She knows how important we are to them and they to us.  That seems to be her way of still maintaining a relationship even though she won't talk to us.  Usually when she needs something or is in crisis I hear from her again. 

My counselor told me once that she will call me again.  She depends on me, I am important to her and she has probably forgotten what happened specifically, although when she is in a mood she brings up all the things I have said wrong.  I have learned to not try to change how she took it.  I am learning to let go of that.  I don't have to be right.  I just need to listen and sort out... .  

I am reading the book "Loving someone with BPD" now.  Only on the 2nd chapter.  What did you think?

[pessim-optimist]

Somuchlove, I have really liked the book, I think it is up there with the best ones. One chapter I have missed in the book would be called "It's all your fault", though. The book covers a variety of important behavior patterns in BPD, but the fact that nons get blamed a lot is only sprinkled through as a fact of life... .  

The longest nc with our usd32 lasted a year and a half, a decade ago (she grew up with her dad and was always close to him and rather dependent on him in spite of the fact that she is married and has 3 kids). When she rejected her mother the last time, the duration was 3.5 years (she was never too close to her, now she is suddenly "close" to her, and split her dad into all bad).

The sad thing is that she is using her kids for leverage as pawns and keeps them away from the parent that she split at the moment and tells the kids in the meantime "grandma/grandpa is a bad person and we are never going to talk to her/him again" What confusion! It breaks my heart... .  

[vivekananda]

Hi,

I think having grandchildren changes the tenor of a relationship with an adult child, because the interrelationships are like a network or web, all interacting and affecting each other.

My dd32 has no children and no significant relationship. She has been unable to keep a relationship for long since she and her SO of 7 years split up about 5 or more years ago.

Below are selective extracts from the proposed new DSM guidelines where 'separation anxiety' are indentified.

2.   Impairments in interpersonal functioning

b.   Intimacy: Intense, unstable, and conflicted close relationships, marked by mistrust, neediness, and anxious preoccupation with real or imagined abandonment; close relationships often viewed in extremes of idealization and devaluation and alternating between over involvement and withdrawal.

1.   Negative Affectivity, characterized by:

c.   Separation insecurity: Fears of rejection by – and/or separation from – significant others, associated with fears of excessive dependency and complete loss of autonomy.

Her relationship with dh and myself since adolescence have been characterised by consistent withdrawl leading to our long period of n/c which began over 12mths ago. Since then there were a few text exchanges between dh and dd to do with money. After I wrote her a 'sorry letter' I was able to initiate contact and had 2 meetings face to face of an hour which were productive I thought. We also saw her at the family Xmas function. She has gone total n/c again.

I think it is possible that she will never get better, and in that case our contact with her I expect to be neglible. However, she does have a desire to be healthy and to be ok, it may be possible for her to begin to repair and she could initiate contact. One of her aunts has had intermittent contact with her, and that may be the link that will repair contact. Either that or her grandfather's imminent demise may lead to another opportunity... .  but that demise may be a couple of years... .  Perhaps my mother's funeral... .  but I would find that hard (so much hurt associated with my mum and dd's behaviour towards her and dd's melodrama can be hard to stomach)

At the moment I am not initiating contact because I do not want to upset her and I am unsure of how it would be recieved - after the sorry letter contact was welcomed. It seems she has had another relationship breakdown which precipitated this current n/c. At the moment contact would not be welcome I think.

I feel I have come to a place of accepting the situation - sort of. I do not feel a need to initiate contact, if I did it would be because I believed it would be helpful for her.

In the meantime, I am doing all my reading thinking and discussing of those important techniques and concepts that underlie DBT so that I can understand what she needs to do to be better. BUT even more, I am addressing the changes that I need to make to myself to make me a better person, so I can find intrinsic happiness without wanting to have my emotional needs as a mother rule my relationships with anyone else. These emotional needs I can recognise and meet myself, no one else is responsible for them but me.

The hard part is grieving the loss and being open to rekindle the relationship. That requires radical acceptance indeed.

Vivek    

[marcime]

Somuchlove, I have really liked the book, I think it is up there with the best ones. One chapter I have missed in the book would be called "It's all your fault", though. The book covers a variety of important behavior patterns in BPD, but the fact that nons get blamed a lot is only sprinkled through as a fact of life... .  

The longest nc with our usd32 lasted a year and a half, a decade ago (she grew up with her dad and was always close to him and rather dependent on him in spite of the fact that she is married and has 3 kids). When she rejected her mother the last time, the duration was 3.5 years (she was never too close to her, now she is suddenly "close" to her, and split her dad into all bad).

The sad thing is that she is using her kids for leverage as pawns and keeps them away from the parent that she split at the moment and tells the kids in the meantime "grandma/grandpa is a bad person and we are never going to talk to her/him again" What confusion! It breaks my heart... .  

I would like to know how long do you wait, too.  I am almost completely alone, now.  My BPD daughter finally got clean and sober after a 7 year long drug binge in which I and my mom cared for my 2 granddaughters and helped with everything.  She and her co-dependent husband always asked for my help even though I had just lost my husband to cancer. 

I haven't seen my granddaughters in 2 years and even when my mother died in December, my daughter refused to talk to me on the phone.  She finally sent me an email describing why she wanted no contact with me and it was filled with the most hateful lies even to the point of accusing me of being BPD and of emotionally abusing her.   When I read her email, it became apparent that she is either delusional or just making up stories to justify keeping my granddaughters away from me . 

The thing is that I am so lonely and alone.  Because of my daughter's addiction,  I was unable to begin a new life or even grieve properly for my husband .  Then for the last 2 years or more, I was further isolated in caring for my mother.  And now that she has passed on, I have to try and make a new life for myself and I don't know how.

I ache for my granddaughters.  They try to call me and I was able to talk to them for a while until my daughter found out they were calling and texting me and she took away their phones.  She is hurting them, just to hurt me. 

My main issue right now is that my daughter cut me out of her life 4 years ago and out of my granddaughters 2 years ago.  I have a son who lives far away because of employment and I am all alone in a city that my mom wanted to come to and I'm just stuck. 

What do you do when the BPD people have rejected you completely ?  I'm so hurt and having a really hard time tonight. 

[lurchlookalike]

Hi P-O,

Over time your daughter will continue to split you into black or white depending on the volatile mood swings of her illness which will have very little to do with anything you have done. There might be something that you do or say to trigger it or it could come from someone else but it won't be your fault. The worst thing you could do for you and your family is to allow this "splitting" to control you.

In my experience BPD (w/NPD traits) is a never ending cycle that repeats itself over and over again. It's never all gone no matter how long the time has been between contacts, and it's never completely resolved either no matter how frequent and pleasant the contacts have been. It will always swing the other way again. This has been my experience. Simply put, you can't control her emotions and you're not responsible for them either. That's up to her. Once you realize this things will become more centered within yourself. 

Oh, your screen name reminds me of a saying: "A pessimist is just an optimist with experience." In reality I think there is a good argument for the opposite of that statement too.

Best of luck with everything.

[vivekananda]

Hi PessiO and marcime,

Rejection by our daughters is hard to take, but we are not alone. At the very least we have each other here.

All I have to add is that I am responsible for how I feel and if I stop and reflect, I can find solutions to my concerns. I am learning to accept that my dd has made the decisions she has and I am powerless to change her. Instead I have to make my plans to bring about change for me, so I can find some happiness.

Cheers,

Vivek    

[pessim-optimist]

Oh, marcime that is SO VERY HARD!

I know how you feel regarding your daughter and granddaughters, but your other losses and the fact that you are now alone just must be overwhelming! Sending you a couple of virtual     ... .  

At least this is a good place to go to and share, and find some support. People here are very welcoming and friendly. Please, keep coming back. It will not replace your other relationships, but it may help you through this tough time.

Right now, you are aching for your grandkids and your daughter. You are also grieving your mom, and haven't had a chance to grieve your husband... .  That is so much sadness  :'(. It will be a slow process to get through. As is hits you during the day, give yourself the time to cry. And then, when the big boulder of grief of the moment has melted, and you feel better for the moment, you may put that temporarily behind you and look at your present options.

It there anything right now that you could do to make yourself feel better? (listening to music, taking a bath, baking some cookies - whatever it is that YOU enjoy?

... .  The thing is that I am so lonely and alone.  Because of my daughter's addiction,  I was unable to begin a new life or even grieve properly for my husband .  Then for the last 2 years or more, I was further isolated in caring for my mother.  And now that she has passed on, I have to try and make a new life for myself and I don't know how.

... .  I am all alone in a city that my mom wanted to come to and I'm just stuck.  

Do I understand it correctly that you are isolated in a city you moved to because of your mom?

Do you have some friends "back home" wherever that may be for you? Could you possibly re-connect with some of them, or even move back? Or move closer to your son?

What other options would you have?

What did you enjoy doing, and what did your life look like before you got so busy with helping with your grandkids and your mom?

If this sounds like too much right now, it's ok. There will be another time to think about it, as you slowly try to re-build your life.

... .  What do you do when the BPD people have rejected you completely ?  I'm so hurt and having a really hard time tonight.  

That is a good question. The easy answer is, you had a life before the person with BPD was in your life, and you will have a life after they left. The hard answer is: when it's our kids and grandkids, the pain is unspeakable, and it never really goes away. I don't think we ever really get over it. But it gets easier with time, it's a process... .  And this is a good place to visit to find help on the way.

Thinking of you, PessiO    

[pessim-optimist]

Hi lurchlookalike,

I think you are right that it is going to be a never ending cycle. And that is a hard thing to swallow. We have observed BPD behavior and traits before, but it did not seem to be "full-blown" so to speak, at least not with us. Now it seems, once the cat is out of the bag, it will never go back there, unless there is therapy and recovery... .  So sad... .  

Vivek ,

yes! Reflection and solutions. That sounds good. Been reading some good books, will post in a new thread.

Our objective is to better understand the struggles our child faces and to learn the skills to improve our relationship and provide a supportive environment and also improve on our own emotional responses, attitudes and effectiveness as a family leaders

[lurchlookalike]

... .  What do you do when the BPD people have rejected you completely ?  I'm so hurt and having a really hard time tonight.

It's like the weather in the Midwest, if you don't like it just wait around and it will change completely, regardless of the season.

I understand and sympathize, it takes a LONG time for most people to get used that type of behavior (BPD (w/NPD traits)) but you eventually do see through the facade. It isn't real, it's emotional instability coming from a very immature adult. For those that don't even know what it is, it's even worse.

Things will swing back & forth, kind of like walking through a mine field, you never know when the next one will blow up. And there can be so much drama with each outburst, it's reaches a crescendo in the teenage years. You just have to find a separate peace, for yourself and the rest of your family.

P.S. Hi P-O, I can only speak from my own experience but the cat can get out of the bag and go back in 1000 times, and just when you think it's back in for good it jumps out again. It's a pattern, and sometimes the entire performance is just a manipulation routine.                  

[marcime]

Thank you, all for your replies.  To answer your questions, p-o, when my husband passed we were living in the mid-west because of his work.  We had been there 13 years.  Although, I had friends, there, it was not our home.  And my children lived elsewhere.  My mom convinced me to return to FL until we could decide what to do and I  ended up buying a house here to be a home away from home  so that my son and my daughter's family could come and visit with me.

  I should mention that my dad lives here and he is certainly BPD-NPD as well, although not diagnosed. My dad was good to me as long as my husband was alive, but as soon as I was widowed he vacillated between being nice ( in public) and being just crazy in private.

My mom must have been very co-dependent and in denial to want to come back here, but here we are.  My dad cut off contact with me when my mother became really sick ( he's terrified of death) by changing his phone number.  When I confronted him about this, he told me, "You ruined my retirement."  When I asked why, he said, "by bringing your mother here."  I went home and he's made no effort to contact me, since.  It was the last rejection by him and it really hurt but the first time he turned on me was when I was 7 years old and my mom's mom who lived with us died. You see, he had no audience at home anymore to be nice in front of.

My dad turned on his own wonderful family years ago and has no contact with them. In fact, when both of his brothers died recently, my aunt  requested that I not tell him as they did not want to risk having him show up at the funeral.   When my mother died in December, my son and I decided not to try to contact my father, either. 

I sometimes feel like I'm a book with a crazy bookend on both sides - my father and my daughter.  I'm in therapy and am also doing neurofeedback to deal with my extreme anxiety.  I'm also working on me.  I've been a wife, mom and grandmother for so long , I have to find "me". 

Perhaps, in a couple of months when the neuro is finished, I can think more rationally about plans. 

  It's hard to believe that my daughter would hurt her own daughters just to hurt me, but there it is.   

Thank you all, so much for your kindness.  It's a relief to have a place to share with others who understand.

[vivekananda]

It's a hard journey you have had marcime. The hurt you have felt and the anger you must have felt is understandable. It sounds so distressing.   

Macime, my mum is uBPD, my older sister is also, as is y dd32. You are not alone. I have found this place to be a source of ongoing support and understanding, It has helped me come to grips with my situation. I do recommend that you stay in touch with us as you go through your own T. Here there is much valuable advice and wonderful people.

I am sort of at peace with myself now and this happened because I posted here, and engaged in the dialogue. I do suggest this to you also.

with much best wishes,

Vivek    

ps PessiO you said it all so beautifully... . thank you   

[marcime]

Vivek ananda,  Thank you for your advice.  I'm glad that you are at peace with this.   I have good days and bad days. 

Knowing I'm not alone is Huge for me.  I keep blaming myself , I guess I got used to it growing up. 

I ache for my granddaughters.  I'm not permitted to speak to them even on the phone.  I was one of the only stable adults in their lives from birth on until my daughter decided to cut me out of their lives. Imagine, after my mother died, my daughter still refused to speak to me.  Oddly, although she was always a hater, she and I had a good relationship.  Now I wonder if it's just my turn. She's hated everyone else and now me.  BPD is so horrible. 

Do you have a secret for being able to find peace?  Again, thank you for your kind words.

[vivekananda]

My secret for finding 'peace' is no secret. And my peace can come and go also   but generally these days I am ok with 'stuff' - but I am not in he middle of crisis like some here. Those with grandkids, those with teenage kids or young adults, those who live with the fear of self harming and potential suicide  - our people here can have a much harder time than me.

The secret to peace starts with knowing that there is only one thing that I have the power to change - myself. The tools to begin to change myself are found in reading as much as I can (to you I recommend Valerie Porr's book: Overcoming BPD and the Lundberg's book: I don't have to make everything all better). I immersed myself in the information available here. I learnt all that I was able to absorb. I my learning continues still.

Peace has started to come with opening myself (as I see it) to the 3 components of mindfulness: acceptance, detachment and being open to the universe. These are concepts that require a lot of thinking about. And a lot of reflection for me on my own actions and thoughts and beliefs. The tools that we use here, Boundary based values and especially Validation have helped me enormously put into practice the ideas behind the concept of mindfulness. I feel that there is much I am yet to learn, relearn though. I am trying to come to grips with the personality traits that lead me astray and that are behind my own anxiety. By focussing on those techniques I am trying to develop neural pathways so that my thoughts and actions are aligned with the concepts of mindfulness and that my 'default' response to anxiety and stressful situations is not the old patterns of behaviour (defensiveness, self righteous indignation, anger, frustration etc) but rather the new patterns that I am trying to develop, of kindness and thoughtfulness and compassion... .   you could probably guess rightly that I have a long way to go and therefore a lot of work yet to do.

Why bother? apart from wanting to be a better person, to lead a happier life, I want to be ready in case my own dd 32 is able to reconnect with me in a meaningful way.

It is through participation here on this board with the guidance of my peers, people just like us, that I have been able to get this far. I value the support we get here so much.

Cheers,

Vivek