After an Order of Protection

[Rewards2]

Went to court today. It all happens so fast and with so little preparation that it is difficult to follow. My lawyer was harassing me because I didn't file custody papers, when I didn't even have an idea about what to file.

As soon as we got in front of the judge I am immediately accused of a about 10 different "transgressions". Since this is not a trial my lawyer tells me to ignore it. I really don't like my lawyer I am sorry to say.

Anyway the main question was how the visits were going. I was accused of coming late, dropping off late, etc.

in the end nothing really happened. Not that I noticed anyway. The criminal proceeding is set to May.

The good news is that a lawyer friend of mine helped me figure out the best path for me for now. Which is to file for joint custody and leaving her with physical custody. It Is the most realistic approach for now I don't have a place for six kids anyway, and this leaves me with my foot in the door and a realistic chance of getting it with the minimum of fighting.

It seems to really make sense to me and once that is achieved I can really focus on getting divorced and remarried and setting up a solid household.

[ForeverDad]

Hmm, if that's how your lawyer friend helped, I'm worried about you.  Too much is happening at once.

But let's start with you.  "focus on getting divorced and remarried and setting up a solid household"  Problem there.  Unless you're a pushover and quite rich, it will take a while for a reasonable divorce.  If you rush it for quick deals, you won't be left with much to restart your life.  And remarriage?  You need time to figure out what went wrong the first time you married.  Sometimes it feels like we're BPD magnets.  You sure don't want a repeat of this.

Why agree to her having physical custody?  Is she really the better parent for the children?  While it may seem 'realistic" right now it will be extremely hard to undo it later on.

The #1 mantra of the Splitting: Protecting Yourself While Divorcing Someone with Borderline or Narcissistic Personality Disorder handbook is never to admit to something you didn't do.  First, it's wrong to lie to the court.  Second, any guilty plea however minor it is claimed to be will be permanently on your record and will put you at a distinct disadvantage in family court.  Third, guilty pleas can't be appealed or later denied.

I'm not saying you can't roll over, it's just that you don't have to.

The criminal part is very serious.  What evidence is there?  Witnesses?  Or is it her word against yours?

Didn't you say a children's services agency worker was monitoring things?  Can that person speak out about what's really happening?  Are the children able to relate what life is like with father and what life is like with mother?

[Matt]

As soon as we got in front of the judge I am immediately accused of a about 10 different "transgressions". Since this is not a trial my lawyer tells me to ignore it. I really don't like my lawyer I am sorry to say.

Anyway the main question was how the visits were going. I was accused of coming late, dropping off late, etc.

in the end nothing really happened. Not that I noticed anyway. The criminal proceeding is set to May.

Every false accusation must be challenged immediately.

Bring a notebook, and write down exactly what was said.  Then when it's your turn, refer to your notes, and say, "A few minutes ago, Ms. Rewards said 'Mr. Rewards did X.'  That is false, and she has no evidence to support it.  I have never done X.  I ask the court to instruct Ms. Rewards not to make more false accusations."

Shift the focus from "Rewards2 did X!" to "Ms. Rewards is making false and unsupported accusations."

You may need to do this a number of times.  The judge may not like it, but it will force everyone in the room to recognize that your wife is making unsupported accusations.

Discuss this approach with your lawyer and instruct him to help you with it.  If he won't do that fire him.

Find out what options there are to hold someone accountable for false statements in court, or in court documents.  Can she be held in contempt of court?  File a motion asking for that.  Can she be charged with a crime?  Talk to the police, fill out a report and demand that she be charged.  Can she be subject to civil charges?  Find out how to do that and file them.  Use the law to hold her accountable, or everyone will assume that the accusations are true.  (And "everyone" includes your own lawyer.)

Ditto to FD's and LnL's recommendation of "Splitting".  It's perfect for your situation - tons of very important and practical stuff.  Your lawyer should read it too.  Make it clear to him that this is how your case is going to be handled so he should read it before your next meeting.

[livednlearned]

Ditto to FD's and LnL's recommendation of "Splitting".  It's perfect for your situation - tons of very important and practical stuff.  Your lawyer should read it too.  Make it clear to him that this is how your case is going to be handled so he should read it before your next meeting.

And don't take advice from your L friend. I agree with FD. You are going to end up screwed if you follow that plan. Screwed. This is not an ordinary divorce, it's high-conflict, and if you want to raise healthy kids, they are going to need as much time with you as possible. It's remarkable the change in my son now that he spends majority time with me. He was considered an at-risk kid at age 8, and his transformation into a fairly resilient kid in middle school is stunning. Therapy, consistent solid steady loving home, limited time with N/BPDx. It matters.

And FD is right -- what you agree to right now, while it may seem temporary, is really really really hard to undo. Especially if you two agree to it. A lot of us ooze passivity, and tend to be people who appease and avoid conflict. You have to get in touch with your assertive side and pay attention to the bullet train heading your way. Read Splitting -- it will explain what's about to happen, both the legal system and the mental illness when it hits the legal system.

[Rewards2]

I hear you all. Asking for joint custody is something that I can realistically ask for now.

Right now I am living in my office. I can't afford apartment now. Not only that, we have six kids. Not only can I not afford an apt., but especially if I had to add on to that a full time person to take care of the 10 month year old baby. I need to get myself situated, focus on getting myself set up. If I try to take the kids when I am not fully together it is not going to work out any better than if she had them.

According to the lawyer, who incidentally I hired instead of the free lawyer from the city, I can always file a new petition. Especially if things change and she is faltering in a serious manner in her taking care of the kids.

I am not sure about all your situations so what worked for you all may not be the best for me. After hearing people give both sides of their opinions, one being to sue for full custody, the other being to move on and accept visitation and that is all - this idea resonated to what I think is right for me now.

Our kids are young. 10 mos to 12 years. Yes, it is painful to think about them being neglected with her. I cry over it.

However to help them in the long term I have to get myself set up and together now.

Also, the part about getting remarried was said along the lines of moving on with my life and starting over. Don't worry, I will not be rushing into that. For now I am concentrating on getting through the criminal proceeding, building my side business into a real business, therapy and working on my myself.

Please let me know what you think.

[Rewards2]

Well, looks like you guys were correct. Wednesday morning my lawyer called me up and told he thinks we should go for full custody.

Based on the kids not attending school regularly and the whole disruption to their lifestyle after consulting with a lawyer friend of his that is what he told me. The papers have have already been served.

The advice from here may have been correct, but it is scary.

First of all the battle. Who knows what she will do.

Second of all if i get custody what do with them all. (Meaning six kids)

I have made a resolution to take it one step at a time, one day at a time and one moment at a time.

Just as I did not expect to be where I am now, I am not expecting anything.

Present the evidence, don't get hung up on the outcome and do what is correct. That is what I am thinking.

The stories from the way the house is not are not easy to hear.

So, I am thinking about taking a two bedroom apt (basement), so I could entertain the kids. As it is now I am still in my office which is just a room. Showering at the gym every morning. Not bad, but  it is getting a little old and the worst is that there is not place to hang out with the kids.

[Matt]

Well it sounds very stressful, but I'm glad you've worked out what you think is best with your attorney.  It sounds like a good plan to me.

Let's talk about "scary"... .  

First, yes, you are in for a battle, but it may not be as bad as you think, and anyway, it's a process you need to work through.

On TV it's always presented as "Mom vs. Dad", and it is an adversarial system, so that's not all wrong.

But you can also look at it as a process to get to the best possible outcome for the kids.

One way to start might be to think - and discuss here, and with others whose inputs you value - what would be the best outcome.  For example, would it be with you in the home, and the kids there most of the time, but seeing their mom every weekend?  Or some other outcome?  Be specific - which days and times, and what arrangements over the summer, etc.

Think about each issue, and the link between what is best for the kids and what you are proposing.  For example, "To make sure the kids make the most of their education, they will be with Father from 6:00 p.m. each Sunday through 6:00 p.m. each Friday, so he can make sure they get to school on time and their homework is done."  ":)ad is better than Mom so the kids should be with him more."  Specific proposals, backed up with kid-focused logic.

Once you have worked through that, and decided on specific outcomes you believe will be best, then you can explore with your attorney all the options you have for achieving those outcomes.  For example, where I live, you can file a motion to have a Custody Evaluator appointed, and/or psych evals for both parents - both steps that I took and that helped.  Get your attorney to list all your options, and advise you as to the costs, risks and advantages of each option, so together you can form a strategy.

Make sure your attorney understands and buys into your objectives, and the strategy you work out with her is designed to achieve those objectives.  And ask lots of questions about how the process works;  one of the reasons this is so stressful is because we don't understand the process, so we keep getting surprises.  Be a student of the process - learn all about it - and that will reduce your stress (by a little anyway).