Mediation with a BPD?

[mrshyde]

My 3rd try divorcing my uBPDh. First time I filled out the paperwork but did not file. The second time I filed but never had him served and eventually dropped the case. He does not trust lawyers, and one time he suggested doing it online.

Has anyone tried a mediator with a BPD... .  or is that just crazy? I almost think that with him, a less combative approach would be better, but these last 2 times I have always been urged to "hurry and be the first to file".

We have 3 kids and a house. He does not want a divorce, but wouldn't contest it. He is pretty high functioning in that he has held down a job and no one outside immediate family sees that side.

[ComoLu]

I was also married to a high functioning uBPDH.  He abandoned our family in 2011, and our divorce was just final last month.  He left me, but I got a lawyer first and started the process for settlement.  He has dragged this out, and he has made every tiny thing a huge undertaking.  I had no idea that he might have BPD until after he left, so I had no idea what I was up against.  After reading many posts and getting a lot of advice, I have discovered that my experience was not unique.  Be prepared for battle. Hold him to every agreement/promise/statement.  Try to document as much as possible.  Get your finances under your control.  A mediator would not have worked for me.  I have a terrific lawyer.  Maybe you should at least see if you can find one too.  Good luck.

[Matt]

How old are the kids?

Do you have an attorney?

[mrshyde]

I had a really great attorney last year, my file is probably still open. I held off on serving him because he said he would do anything... .  including see a psychiatrist... .  if I didn't go through with it. I agreed to hold off ... .  I figured if I could get him to get help at least it may improve his parenting skills and make him somewhat easier to deal with as an ex. His behavior got better... .  so much better that I dropped the case. I kidded myself that the improvement was due to meds, but really I think he only changed to suck me back in. His good behavior lasted one year... .  and now I'm back to where I was.

Our kids are 14, 11, and 8.

[Whichwayisup]

Hi MrsHyde,

I have an individual meeting on Tuesday to kick start mediation, but after the last two days I am less than hopeful, I went from almost daily contact in one way or another(activities and she let me have them longer than initially planned as she was working?)  over the last 10 days to leaving the kids at School on Thur morning, not knowing when I will see them again - last night Stbexw informs me due to her shifts (that I agreed to work around) I won't be able to have them 'til next Fri. - a gap of 8 days without them (youngest is D3!). 

Given that she is tightening the screw despite my rational points that its not in the best interests of the kids to be away from either parent for that length of time, nor is it appropriate that other parties should be caring for them when I am available and she is working- she is putting up the shutters and now refusing to confirm anything... .  back to square one again from having a great last fortnight being able to try and settle the kids into a halfway routine. I am gonna have to call L on Monday morning if nothing changes - half of my thinks she will get fed up of having the kids and I will be offered them (just like the past two weeks)

From the research I have looked at mediation, it is likely that she will feel like she is losing elements of control in the process, so I will try but am really not hopeful, in the meantime aware the kids are unfairly piggy in the middle.  The positive is that I am documenting everything and have the messages as backup to demonstrate my matters arising, actually just writing up instances where the kids have been affected due to her poor planning and lack of being able to take responsibility, missing swimming classes, football coaching and passing on messages that we agreed they really shouldn't ... .  

As this is UK based, my L had already instructed me to book the mediation before we had even tried to agree amicably, it's one of those things that has to be worked through so that when it comes to court it can at least be demonstrated... .  I will of course await to being pleasantly surprised over the coming few weeks and I had also decided to hang fire on my filing simply due to finance constraints as well as fearing incurring her escalated behaviours, but that seems to have happened anyway!... . so I will definitely file in the next month or two once I have saved enough to do so... .  

Whichwayisup

[Matt]

Generally mediation with someone who has BPD or another psychological disorder probably doesn't work, but there are some advantages to trying it.

First, you get some insight into what the other party is thinking and is likely to say during the legal process.  For example, if he makes any false accusations during mediation, you can hear that and prepare to deal with similar accusations during the legal process.

Also, going through mediation and trying your best will help others to see you as reasonable.

But you don't want to get bogged down in a process that isn't likely to work.  If you want to get a divorce, learn about how the process works where you live, and take all the steps needed, without delay.  The process is long enough as it is - any delays will just drag it out.  Go through mediation without slowing down the legal process any more than necessary.

About the kids - what do you think is the best outcome for them?  What is the parenting schedule now?  And how are they doing?

[ForeverDad]

Mediation means negotiation, give and take, meeting in the middle, being somewhat reasonable.  That doesn't coincide with someone who is entitled, can't really negotiate, can't give and take.  Rather, in our cases it's more like we give and give and they take and take and keep taking.  (And twist, distort, blame, guilt, etc.)

Typically, appeasing only encourages or enables more demands or stubbornness.

Typically, mediation or settlement conferences only work when the other can't delay, obfuscate or obstruct any more.  Usually that's only "on the courthouse steps" on Trial Day.  Until then the "same old" keeps going on.

Courts generally do require you to try mediation first and that's okay, as mentioned above it shows you're trying to resolve the differences and be reasonable.  But beware of mediation's traps, that it can be used to coerce repeated concessions and wear you down.  Stand firm for what you believe is right and reasonable.  Yes, you can make some concessions but not endlessly.  Don't guilt yourself if mediation fails, it's not your fault.  If mediation fails, which it usually does, don't hesitate to call it failed and move on to the next steps.

Also, avoid attempts to derail the case such as "let's cancel the next hearing because I have an offer to make... .  "  If that happens, say, "Send me the offer and I will consider it but the court schedule stays on the docket."  Keep the case moving, avoid agreeing to delays.  Likely you'll only reach settlement only just before the judge has to start the trial.

Also, don't make any open-ended offers.  If not accepted in a reasonable amount of time, then the offer is off the table, period.  Or else you'll be waiting and waiting or it'll morph into something you don't recognize.

A disordered person usually looks out for self, perhaps claiming to include the kids.  However, you have to look out for yourself and truly for the kids too.  Forget about being concerned for the other, there is little or no reciprocity, a disordered spouse won't be looking out for you.

[Matt]

Stand firm for what you believe is right and reasonable.  Yes, you can make some concessions but not endlessly.  Don't guilt yourself if mediation fails, it's not your fault.  If mediation fails, which it usually does, don't hesitate to call it failed and move on to the next steps.

Also, avoid attempts to derail the case such as "let's cancel the next hearing because I have an offer to make... .  "  If that happens, say, "Send me the offer and I will consider it but the court schedule stays on the docket."  Keep the case moving, avoid agreeing to delays.  Likely you'll only reach settlement only just before the judge has to start the trial.

Also, don't make any open-ended offers.  If not accepted in a reasonable amount of time, then the offer is off the table, period.  Or else you'll be waiting and waiting or it'll morph into something you don't recognize.

Some really important points here!

Stand firm for what you believe is right and reasonable.

In order to "stand firm on what you believe is right and reasonable", you need to first get that clear in your mind, and share it with your attorney.  It may help to write down your key objectives, especially with regard to custody - what exactly do you think is the best outcome for them.  In talking with your attorney, note if she commits to help you achieve your objectives (though no attorney will give you any guarantees), or if she spends most of her time trying to lower your expectations;  if it's the latter, she may not be the right resource for you.

Also, avoid attempts to derail the case such as "let's cancel the next hearing because I have an offer to make... .  "  If that happens, say, "Send me the offer and I will consider it but the court schedule stays on the docket."  Keep the case moving, avoid agreeing to delays.  Likely you'll only reach settlement only just before the judge has to start the trial.

In my state, you can file a motion to have the trial date set, right at the start of the process - when you file for divorce, or shortly afterward.  The court will pick a date several months out, to allow time for mediation and other parts of the process.  But the sooner you file that motion, and get the trial date set, the sooner that date will arrive.  And when someone with BPD is involved, settlements usually happen shortly before the trial date, so you might as well make that as soon as possible.

Also, don't make any open-ended offers.  If not accepted in a reasonable amount of time, then the offer is off the table, period.  Or else you'll be waiting and waiting or it'll morph into something you don't recognize.

This is a mistake often made by our members here (and our attorneys).  It's easy to put an expiration date on your offer - you just say, "This offer is good through May 10, 2013."  You can always extend it if you want - if the other side calls on May 9 and says, "We might accept your offer but I need a few more days to work through it with my client - can we have til Tuesday?", then you might decide to extend it as a courtesy.  But this stuff isn't super-complicated usually - a week or two is enough for most offers to be read and understood.  They can always make a counter-offer, if yours is almost-OK for them but not quite, and if their counter-offer is reasonable, then you might have the basis for an agreement.

More often, though, as FD says, the other side probably won't respond in a constructive way, or bargain in good faith, at least not til the trial date is close.  Then, if they perceive that they won't get a good outcome at trial, they're very likely to come to the table in a settling mood.

[momtara]

You can always file first and then insist on mediation.  Point out how much money it will save you both.

This is a helpful thread because I am going through similar things.  My husband is high functioning, he finally saw a therapist only after I filed, and I keep feeling bad for him, especially since we have 2 young kids, and I keep considering calling off the divorce.

But things he has done have made me nervous, including claiming falsely that I abused the kids.  If it was just verbal abuse, I could hang in there and see how therapy goes (as someone said, it's at least good for the kids if he continues in it).  But the lying, manipulation, and control issues regarding the kids are very hard to deal with. 

I have been advised that it's not recommended to have mediation if there are domestic violence issues (verbal abuse included) because the other party could manipulate you.  But I also think there are chances where it could work, so as much as I myself have relied on internet advice, you might try to at least start off that way.  It's not like it's binding.

You will still need a good lawyer to look at your agreement if you do agreements in mediation.

The other problem with mediation is that BPD's change their minds so many times.  SO whatever you decide, nail it down before leaving the room.

I'd like to know more about your situation because it's similar to mine, too.  Maybe I'll message you.  Nice screen name!

[Matt]

You can always file first and then insist on mediation.  Point out how much money it will save you both.

Yeah, I think it's a very good idea to file, and then offer mediation as a way to settle without a trial, not as an alternative to filing.

[Whichwayisup]

File if that's what gonna happen anyway, I was deluded to think it would make the situation worse, it's worsening anyway, I'm knocking on the L door first thing tomorrow;

I have this morning received no information as to the two girls arrangements for a dance competition until it's too late, been denied a request to see my kids within  the 8 day period and still not had confirmation who will be caring for the kids.  Icing on the cake is that she tells me she has, last night introduced the kids to the new fella (last week she said he didn't exist) and apparently it was a their request - how can the kids D3, D10 & S15 request to meet someone who doesn't exist to them?.  I am so furious as on legal advice I requested that the kids do not meet the new person! (I know logically she is escalating to gain a reaction) and haven't responded, yet, will msg later to propose meeting kids at least for dinner if I can't have them overnight - so what good will mediation be if she is riding roughshod across all our agreements already... .  all avenues suggest to stay away from court wherever possible (even Fathers4Justice) but it seems with BPD it's the only way... .  although don't they just flout court orders without consequence anyway?

She seems to care not a jot about the kids welfare at all, at least its out in the open and I can explain why daddy didn't want mummy in the house... .  

I feel numb and slightly airbrushed out

Whichwayisup

[momtara]

98 percent of these cases are decided without a trial (unless they get complicated), at least, in my state.  Trials are expensive.  Divorces get decided when 2 attorneys work out a property settlement agreement.  Granted, it takes a lot of back and forth and there are pleadings and counter pleadings first.  So mediation, at least trying it in the beginning, doesn't hurt.  See how it goes.

[VeryFree]

Maybe if your stbx has something to gain with mediation.

Mine has supported legal aid and therefore will not go into mediation: she tries to drain me financially (because I have to pay for my L).

[Matt]

Maybe if your stbx has something to gain with mediation.

Mine has supported legal aid and therefore will not go into mediation: she tries to drain me financially (because I have to pay for my L).

In our case, lawyers weren't involved in mediation, so it cost nothing.

But it's different in different places.

It may also be worth finding out if the mediator or her notes would be part of the legal process later - probably not but you need to know for sure.

[mrshyde]

This is all so helpful... .  thanks so much. I think filing first is a good idea, that way I am sort of protected if (when) things get really nasty.

[Matt]

This is all so helpful... .  thanks so much. I think filing first is a good idea, that way I am sort of protected if (when) things get really nasty.

Yes I think that's right.

Even if the temporary orders aren't exactly what you think is best, they will impose some order on the situation, and that will help everybody's stress level, including the kids.

[Whichwayisup]

I filed this morning knowing that the escalating behaviours are starting anyway... .  In a way I was relieved as it was gonna happen anyway.

I was also advised that as I am having my initial individual mediation meeting tomorrow, my stbexW will be called at a similar time; I had assumed that she would be next week and maybe a joint one the following week... .  If its a similar time, the invitation to mediation may well have triggered her desire to keep the kids from me and introducing the new partner to the kids... .  (Although given that she has now introduced the kids to him negates her defence on grounds of adultery; I suspect she really didn't think that through... .  )

My advice is to get the wheels in motion if you are certain that's how you are gonna go... .  My L advised that the mediation can take just as long as a court order so there's no benefit in going straight to court for a quick solution in the UK... .  My L surprisingly said he has seen similar cases resolved in mediation which feels a long way off for me personally... .  

How's mediation worked for others in terms of timescale, how long to give it?

Whichwayisup

[ForeverDad]

(Although given that she has now introduced the kids to him negates her defence on grounds of adultery; I suspect she really didn't think that through... .  )

 One word... .  projection.  She got the action correct, just the wrong person.  Another word is transference.  But you won't be able to reason with her, there's a third word, Denial.

Whenever I have the facts in my favor, my ex changes the subject to some other blaming statement that lets her pose as a victim and then hangs up.  Even when you win, oftentimes they can't let you win.  Of course, my ex is a very possessive Mother, your spouse may be different in various ways.

[Matt]

My L surprisingly said he has seen similar cases resolved in mediation which feels a long way off for me personally... .  

Does he have any experience in cases with an opposing party who has a personality disorder?

From what you have said, my guess is, he doesn't.  So his advice may be exactly wrong.

[Whichwayisup]

I'm with you on that Matt, I did tell him confidentially that in these "high conflict cases" the evidence suggests she will feel that she is giving ground rather than acting in the interests of the kids by agreeing an equitable arrangement... .  In fairness he did say he'd be happy for court and to take my money but it will cost significantly more if we can't resolve our differences... .  I told him I would go through it as the court will order it anyway but as she is breaking the current agreements, I strongly think that court will be the destination.  He did say that the very act of needing to go to the judge does enforece the PD person to agree... .  He contacted hers with the various concerns I brought... .  No forwarding address, no police check on the new fella, withholding her work rota etc... .  

Cheers ForeverDad, I think I am gonna try really hard to stay on track with the facts, I have noted the impact that the children have already had out on them, like missing their sports activities etc and being asked to keep information from me... .  Why let facts get in the way of her good stories (whatever they are... .  )

[livednlearned]

I went through mediation.

Like Matt said, it can be an important process to go through, but not for the usual reasons people mediate a dispute.

In my case, we settled everything except I would not back down on the issue of joint decision-making. So I have primary physical custody, we have joint legal custody, and the decision-making piece is a separate issue you can carve out in my state. We were in mediation for 7 hours and N/BPDx paid for it. We were in separate rooms and the mediator went back and forth. It worked for me -- I was afraid of N/BPDx and didn't have the nerves for it.

Be forewarned, too, that mediators and lawyers want you to settle. So there can sometimes be pressure -- even slight pressure, which can feel huge when you're new to the process -- to just give up on stuff. I knew that I was getting a pretty good deal on the physical custody, which was EOW + 1 overnight, minus Sunday nights. That worked out to 60/40. But I knew that joint decision-making was NEVER going to work, so I dug my heels in.

In my state, there are many points along the way where you have to demonstrate to the court that you tried mediation. It isn't court-ordered, but it is so strongly recommended (because it keeps the docket from being terribly backlogged) that you may as well do it so that you can say you did.