How do they do it?

[angeldust1]

I still have not had my question answered,  or maybe I can't find the answer... .  sorry if that's the case.

But... .  How is it that they know whom to treat shabbily.  They can be in a room full of strangers,  or even acquaintances,  maybe family whom they know,  and still treat everyone with the utmost respect and the very person who loves them the most is the one the isolate, criticise,  ignore and treat as if they hate the person.  Including horrible stares as if I'd done something unforgivable.  Does he believe this,  or am I just at the butt end of all of his anger.  This hurts so bad,  I can hardly stand it. 

And what's with all the lies.  They lie even when the truth will work just fine,  or at the very least such gross exaggeration that the truth in it can hardly be found.  They lie about things that do not even matter.  I rarely believe anything anymore,  and if I can find a kernal of truth in it,  I'd never repeat it for fear it was grossly exaggerated.

Our objective is to better understand the struggles our child faces and to learn the skills to improve our relationship and provide a supportive environment and also improve on our own emotional responses, attitudes and effectiveness as a family leaders

[griz]

I think the answer to your question is right there... .  It is because we love them the most and imagine what a disappointment they  must think they are in our eyes.  Now this isn't fact and it is just what I think but I know my DD knows that I am always there for her and I will always be there for her but I am also the person who she wants to approve of her and the fear of losing me, even if it is just in her thoughts is unbearable.  I remember one time when DD was in a critical depressive and anxiety state.  She was sitting on the couch just crying nonstop and I sat down next to her and she said these words exactly, "mom, what if something ever happens to you, how will I be able to go one? Who will love me? I am so afraid of the day when you will not be there".  I assured her that I would always be there and she said, "but someday you will be gone (I knew then she meant as in dead) and what will I do?   This was the same child that only days before had said the most horrible things to me and reduced me to tears.  I think their mean words are twofold.  First I think we are the people they feel safest with.  They know we will be there no matter what so it is okay to let all of their anger out on us. Secondly I believe that there is some anger in needing us so much.

I don't excuse my DD's bad behavior and although she doesn't do this too much any more, when she does I let her know that it is not okay.  As far as the lies, this I am not to sure about.  DD lies usually about things that she knows she should have taken care of such as if I ask her if a project is completed for a class.  She will often tell me yes, when I know it is not.  I don't feed into arguments about these lies anymore, because in the end she has to suffer the consequences of a poor grade.

griz

[vivekananda]

Hi angeldust   

Griz makes a lot of sense.

My dd lies a lot. Her biggest lie is that I abused her and my husband saw it and did nothing. she says this, I believe, to explain why she is the way she is. The 'psychic' pain she feels is so bad, she needs someone to blame for it - and it's safest to blame us.

I think that my dd has a different reality to the one that my dh and I live in. I used to say she has a creative imagination... .  One great example from her puberty days is the story about how I threw out her best loved toy. She saw a cute picture of her with a squeezy toothing toy in it, she was about 6mths. When she was about 3, and we moved house, I threw out of lot of stuff that was of no use to her. This toy was something that she had basically ignored, so I had no problems giving it to the secondhand toy people. Well, the young girl see this picture of her looking cute, with this toy in the foreground (all lovingly and carefully placed with toys around her to enjoy). So now this toy, which she had no recollection of catches her eye. What happened to it? she asks... .  it was given to the op shop, I say. So, this became the day mum threw out my most loved and best ever toy when I was a little. What a b*tch! That's her reality.

Perhaps I should have known then what was coming my way... .  I waited for 30 years for her to grow out of it... .  

cheers,

Vivek    

[jellibeans]

I think your s is projecting all his pain on you... .  he wants you to bare that weight. He wants to blame you for everything... .  that is why he is dx with BPD... .  understanding the illness is very important and can relieve you of your hurt and anger... .  don't take it personally. He will be the worse to the one who is the closest.

GRIZ... .  your story made me cry... .  so sad... .  your poor d... .  makes me wonder if my dd feels this fear.

[qcarolr]

angeldust1 - welcome.

This is an area that is so hard, and it never goes away. I have been working hard for the past few years on Radical Acceptance - I will look for a link. I still lose touch with the mindful place I have to be in to radically accept the behaviors of my DD26 that feel so abusive to me. The past two months have been particularly hard as my dh and I are finally stepping up to conssitently enforce some values and realted boudnaries in our home. It is a long story and posted on my other threads.

The most important part for me is to figure out where the line is that I will not allow to be crossed. All the while accepting that sometimes DD truly does not have full control of her angry, rageful, hateful actions and words toward me. Yet, at that same moment she is reaching out for me to resuce her from herself. She cannot bear the thought of my not being there to coach her, yet she is screaming and shoving and just being a really mean BULLY. That is my new label with her - the I will not be a victim of her bullying behavior anymore. And it must be an understandable wording for her. She has not replied when I say this, or text this, to her.

It is also a useful terminology in talking with my gd7 (dh and I have had custody of her since a baby) after she has witnessed a raging episode between her mom and I. Gd knows what being a bully means - it happens at school and in neighborhood with all ages of kids. And the victim needs protection, the bully needs validation, boundaries, and teaching when that is possible -- the bully is in a lot of internal pain that is dumped on the victims to relieve that pain.

For my DD the alternative is to internalize the pain, and she only does this for a few moments IMHO, and then she feels so hopeless and empty that she cannot imagine how she will survive. So she flips and projects. Sometimes on a friend that she believes has betrayed her - often on me. I am the safest -- I will always be there in some way. When she is treating me with some level of respect.

The most important thing for me is to keep returning to a solid, mindful place. Believing that I am OK, that my values and actions do not have to change or be compromised in order to have a connection to my DD. I love her - I cannot just erase her from my life. Even as this is her greatest fear after one of her raging episodes with me and I have to seperate from her - physically and emotinally - medium chill I call this. Then she stabilizes, I warm up again. But with stronger values based boundaries than the last time.

BPD has a cycling nature with my DD. So I have to find the path that regulates my emotional state to be more stable - to let her cycling spin around me instead of straight through me. And to provide a safe, healthy enviroment for gd7. For now, DD is not able to live in our home. She visited today - managed her actions good enough - and has returned to couch she is on for tonight, assuming with bf"M".

Keep coming back  - let us know how things are going for you.

qcr    

[Kate4queen]

it's amazing the way our person with BPD can split you off from everyone else and focus all the rage and hurt on you-and yet you are the person who has given them everything you are capable of. My son is considered courageous, charming, charismatic and amazing by the vast majority of the world. They just can't imagine that for us it was like living with a living breathing seething vat of hatred and turmoil.

They do it because deep down they know that we love them and yet they also have to constantly test that love-sometimes to breaking point. I don't understand it, I just know it's part of the disorder and try to remember it isn't about me. That I'm not evil, that I have a right to be loved and to be respected in my own home, and that I won't allow him to define me.

[angeldust1]

it's amazing the way our person with BPD can split you off from everyone else and focus all the rage and hurt on you-and yet you are the person who has given them everything you are capable of. My son is considered courageous, charming, charismatic and amazing by the vast majority of the world. They just can't imagine that for us it was like living with a living breathing seething vat of hatred and turmoil.

They do it because deep down they know that we love them and yet they also have to constantly test that love-sometimes to breaking point. I don't understand it, I just know it's part of the disorder and try to remember it isn't about me. That I'm not evil, that I have a right to be loved and to be respected in my own home, and that I won't allow him to define me.

[parent of bpd daughter]

I am so sorry you are dealing with this too - it us unbearable sometimes isn't it?

To answer your question - Here's what I think - and it comes from watching and observing ANIMALS - cats and dogs mostly.

It is something subconscious sometimes - instinctive in humans and animals. They somehow KNOW who will hurt them and

who will not - like we give off a scent or something. So our troubled BPD children tune into this "scent" and they KNOW

they can cross the line(s) with us - most moms I think. Witness that my late husband/her father NEVER got any crap from

her EVER - only me.

The GLARES I relate to for sure - I got this from her partner and her at the wedding I had 2 hours notice to attend - GLARES as

if they were going to kill me.

Better to be excluded from their lives than INCLUDED WITH HATRED is my thought.

Anyway, next time you are with children in a gathering - notice who they come up to and who they ignore - same

with dogs or cats - ALL animals - even the human types KNOW instinctively who is gentle and who is not -

US GENTLE compassionate types unfortunately will Always get the brunt of PROJECTILE ANGER and HATRED -

such is our life :-(

Peace be with you

[angeldust1]

Many thanks to all of you,  for your kind supportive words.  I'm am so glad I found my login notes once again,  and am happy I have found the site as well as all of you. 

  You are helping me so much,  I can't wait to get off work and see what new ideas and suggestions you all have waiting for me.  I'm going to get through this one way or another.  My love for my son will never die,  but I will not die trying to keep him in my life.  I deserve better than that.  None of you know me,  but if I may,   I would like to say,  I am a kind loving gererous person,  who has the love and respect of so many people.  So if my only son cannot see this in me,  he will be the looser,  I have so much to offer him.  It is his for the chooseing. May God bless all of you.

[vivekananda]

keep on reading, keep on asking questions, keep on posting

we're here,

Cheers,

Vivek    

[qcarolr]

Better to be excluded from their lives than INCLUDED WITH HATRED is my thought.

Anyway, next time you are with children in a gathering - notice who they come up to and who they ignore - same

with dogs or cats - ALL animals - even the human types KNOW instinctively who is gentle and who is not -

US GENTLE compassionate types unfortunately will Always get the brunt of PROJECTILE ANGER and HATRED -

such is our life :-(

This is something all mammals have in common -  ability to read the enviroment for threat level, then fight/flight or freeze. Humans have the ability to think and speak with words - yet there is so much we communicate that we are not aware of. What about being vulnerable makes us such a target for all our BPDkids anger? It feels like some kind of fear in me that opens the door for my DD26 to attack me. My reaction to freeze and then desire to flee. And for her to have been doing this since she was so very young. And it feels so intentional and manipulative. Yet - it is part of her dysfunction, and she still has to be accountable in some way for these actions, and I am so confused with my actions.

Her shield that deflects it all back onto me must be way bigger than mine to give her responsibilty back to her. The more I TRY to not take it personal, to be validating, to be clear and consistent with my values and boundaries ----- the more aggressive she gets toward me. The more I feel like a failure in doing all the things that I know in my head to do.

I know she is under a lot of stress from so many directions. Our saying she cannot live in our house - to protect gd7 with a side effect of supposedly protecting myself - has only turned up the heat. I am unable to sever all contact with her. It just goes round and round and round inside my head. And leaks out all over dh too.

Hope my T can help me sort all this out a bit tomorrow.

Sharing all this here has calmed me so much. Your kind and understanding eyes and ears - what would I do without you all.

qcr  

Our objective is to better understand the struggles our child faces and to learn the skills to improve our relationship and provide a supportive environment and also improve on our own emotional responses, attitudes and effectiveness as a family leaders

[angeldust1]

qcaolor

I ... . so... . feel your pain,  when I am with my pwBPD, by the time I see him,  I've missed him so much, when we are together,   I'm so sure that this time,  will be different.   This time I will be able to let him know how much I love him and want what is best for him.  But each time I seem to do all the wrong things and it esculates more.  I and a "defense" person,  I suppose because I have been on the defense most of my life.  Alcoholic father, Catholic school Bi-Polar ex husband now BPD son,  it is my natural extinct to defend everything I do. But sometimes I have to drop back and punt,  if you get my drift.  Sometimes,  it's just best to do nothing at all.  Like you said (think it was you) let the cycling spin around you not through you.  A well placed pause when you don't know what to say or do,  puts them a little on the defense, maybe even take some responsibility,  they do not know what we are thinking.  It's time we let them take a little of the defensive position,  and we play the offense. 

I don't know if any of yours have them extreme since of urgency about them.  My BPD wants everything now,  immediately if not sooner.  His patience is quite thin,  especially with me.  At this time we have NC,  which almost killed me at first,  but it has given me a nice break from all the irrational behavior.  What I once thought of as the "worse thing in my life" has now taught me a lot of things.  Missing them is not as bad as being abused by them( mentally that is)  Thank God mine would never lay a hand on me and is not violent at all.  But his words will cut like a knife.

 

[Kate4queen]

qcaolor

I don't know if any of yours have them extreme since of urgency about them.  My BPD wants everything now,  immediately if not sooner.  His patience is quite thin,  especially with me.  At this time we have NC,  which almost killed me at first,  but it has given me a nice break from all the irrational behavior.  What I once thought of as the "worse thing in my life" has now taught me a lot of things.  Missing them is not as bad as being abused by them( mentally that is)  Thank God mine would never lay a hand on me and is not violent at all.  But his words will cut like a knife.

 

This sounds just like my son everything is Urgent! Crisis! Save Me! or we get the subtle threats about killing himself. I keep reminding myself that his crisis is not my crisis and that he isn't in my house or in my face anymore so I can take time to react at my own pace. Quite often the so-called crisis blows over or he'll get what he wants (usually money) and he'll shut up again.

My son is also so smart and eloquent that he can destroy us with his words-or try to. I don't let him do that anymore. It's hard but I'm having to learn to distance myself and protect myself.

[angeldust1]

Absolutely Kate4queen,

  They have no idea what it feels like to be on the recieving end of thier hurtful,  irrational behavior.  What is crisis for them,  is usually no big deal for us,  and of course we have no idea what they are feeling inside either.  The important thing is to remember even though they are in an"it's got to be done right now" mode,  we do not have to be in one along with them.  It used to make me so nervous,  and to some degree still does,  but I do not let him know it anymore.  I just move at the same pace as though I do not realize he's in crisis mode. ( although if the truth be known,  I'm about to explode while I'm around him in that situation). 

[vivekananda]

I don't know if any of yours have them extreme since of urgency about them.  My BPD wants everything now,  immediately if not sooner. 

yep. Furthermore my dd doesn't communicate what it is she wants very clearly, she doesn't know how to ask outright for something. We used to anticipate her needs so much. She wants us to know without telling and to do it now! I know she is trying to do it better, but it's caught up with her belief that I am at fault. Or just that I am her mum. Afterall, it's mum's job to make it all better, isn't it? And given that I am the reason she is the way she is, I should know what to do and do it immediately... .  

anxiety and BPD don't fit well together, do they?

Vivek    

[qcarolr]

I don't know if any of yours have them extreme since of urgency about them.  My BPD wants everything now,  immediately if not sooner. 

anxiety and BPD don't fit well together, do they?

Vivek    

Yep - and they are so often there together feeding the emotions of one into the other. Another aspect of craziness.

qcr  

[pessim-optimist]

LYING

I also have a similar experience about my sd32 'lying' or 'exaggerating' a lot. I have since found out that it is much more complicated than that, though. Yes, sometimes they outright lie, no doubt about it. Sometimes they exaggerate for effect, no doubt about it.

They are also very sensitive, so what to us seems like not so much becomes much bigger in their perception - result = exaggeration.

And, even before we found out about BPD, I have noticed what the books on BPD call "cognitive distortions". Basically, the pwBPD has a faulty system in their brain and information gets all mangled and twisted up, so what they actually experienced becomes very different from what they 'heard' or 'saw'. And it continues to change in their memory as time goes by and they re-tell the story. Also, as they are sometimes overwhelmed by their emotions and all the things that disturb their peace, they only 'take in' a part of what's going on and 'fill in' the part that's missing with their own take on it.

The combined result of the above is often a totally different story, with bits and pieces that we can possibly recognize, and think: "Oh, THAT'S what she/he's talking about, I thought she/he was describing a totally different event I never even attended!" 

(hope you don't mind my humor, it can and often IS rather sad than funny... .  )

BEING SINGLED OUT FOR ATTACK

Yes, I too see how it often happens to the more 'vulnerable' of us.

Looking at the animal world: nobody attacks the 'big bad cat' IF they don't think they can overcome it.

That I think in our more sophisticated human world often translates into BOUNDARIES.

Qcr, pondering your post, I came to a conclusion that I believe VALIDATION has to ALWAYS come hand in hand with appropriate BOUNDARIES.

I think that often our experience with our loved ones having this 'sense' about them in knowing who is vulnerable, is actually based on their past experiences with us.

It reminds me of a youtube video (BPD In Adolescence: Early Detection and Intervention - Blaise Aguirre, MD). He addresses the issue of manipulation. His conclusion is that it is mostly a 'learned behavior' (their experience of our responses to certain behaviors, which in turn leads to more of that, thus reinforcing the behaviors)

I don't claim to be right, just offering my take on it:

I believe in order to protect ourselves from attack/being exploited, IF we can't do both, boundaries have to come first.

For validation makes us seem nice, agreeable and vulnerable - that without an appropriate boundary invites projection/attack etc.

Ideally, IF we can do both, it will facilitate better communication, help our pwBPD feel heard and understood, and help them better navigate the r/s.

URGENCY

I think the trick to keeping our peace and sanity is to not let ourselves be pulled into the vortex of our loved one's problems (which includes the sense of urgency). Keeping things in perspective I think is key. As long as we can keep ourselves separate from that vortex, we have a chance of helping them.

[Someday . . .]

One day I had a heart to heart conversation with my daughter and one of the things I asked her was:  "Is the reason that you are so angry with me and take a lot of your frustration out on me is because I am a "safe" person to do that with?"  Her answer:  "Yes, I know that you will always love even when I'm horrible to you."

That conversation has gotten me through a lot of times when so much anger has been directed at me.  I think of myself as the 'safe refuge' for her to vent.  Yes, I do wish that she would express her anger and frustration in a more effective manner AND as long as I can remind myself to step back/ to create space when she is in the heat of a lot of dysregulation AND not take it personally I fare MUCH better AND she does too!  Many times after she is does venting, she may lose some of that steam, enough for her to be able to carry on.   If you are able to, don't take it personally (as Alan Fruzetti says!)

[vivekananda]

LYING

Sometimes they exaggerate for effect, no doubt about it.

They are also very sensitive, so what to us seems like not so much becomes much bigger in their perception - result = exaggeration.

Basically, the pwBPD has a faulty system in their brain and information gets all mangled and twisted up, so what they actually experienced becomes very different from what they 'heard' or 'saw'. And it continues to change in their memory as time goes by and they re-tell the story. Also, as they are sometimes overwhelmed by their emotions and all the things that disturb their peace, they only 'take in' a part of what's going on and 'fill in' the part that's missing with their own take on it.

BEING SINGLED OUT FOR ATTACK

VALIDATION has to ALWAYS come hand in hand with appropriate BOUNDARIES.


URGENCY

I think the trick to keeping our peace and sanity is to not let ourselves be pulled into the vortex of our loved one's problems (which includes the sense of urgency). Keeping things in perspective I think is key. As long as we can keep ourselves separate from that vortex, we have a chance of helping them.

I reckon you got it there!

And yes too, don't take it personally - we need to detach ourselves from wanting them to meet our emotional needs. Spot on Someday... .  

Vivek    

[qcarolr]

For now my boundary is to stay away from DD if I am alone or gd is in the area. DD is putting gd in the middle with a debate about my role as caregiver and how I failed her so I will also fail gd.  I did make lots of mistakes with DD. The past cannot be undone. I have to remind myself that I did do everything within my power then and now. Maybe too much.That is DD's biggest concern wiht gd - that I will helicopter her into dependency as an adult.

I see gd as having many many strengths that can build her up to overcome her weaker areas. I have gathered lots of support in the school, in my home, with my friends, and in the mental health community. They all encourage me in letting go of the lies I tell myself out of the guilt and shame. And I am getting the support I need to not take it personally, to deal with my PTSD issues, and hopefully come back to that place where I am strong enough to be a validating support in DD's life.

Thanks for all the great support from my many friends here.   

qcr  

[angeldust1]

Been gone for a few days,  but read your takes on this "lying,  exaggeration" thing.  Yes,  Pessim and Someday,  I think both of you hit the nail on the head,  and it does make perfect sense that they distort things and fill in blanks where as"when the actual event happened" they were at some point so angry they just tuned out and made the rest up of the actualy story.  That helps... .  at lot.  But mine has never told me I was a safe person,  that would mean so much to me.  But I was the one that raised him,  and he knows that I am true blue and don't hold back. 

I am the parent "who loves my adult child enough to allow him to hate me in order to help him." His father on the other hand absolutely will not,  and wants to be his friend,   and he'll do whatever it takes to keep that going even if it hurts him ( and expecially me) in the long run. Hurting me is just and added benifit.   I guess that's why I'm the one isolated and also not married to his father.  Growing up I had no support what so ever from his father,  in correcting him.  If I diciplined him,  I was the one in the wrong,  and everything that happened was "my fault and was always asked ( in front of the child) what had I done to make him do this.  This was unbelieveably hard,  hence the divorce.  Among many other things.My son saw this over and over again,  so what else could he think but his behavior was acceptable and I was to blame.

All in all,  I have to just keep reading in order to stay on track,  I had a rather hard mothers day,  because I feel back into the old "this just isn't the way it should be"  I was gone on a little trip,  but stayed in my room a good bit of the day crying my heart out and wondering why why why? 

But now I'm back on tract this morning and will stay here.  as long as my friends here understand and can help me put things back into perspective.  Thank you all for the help. 

By the way,  my husband thought I was just shopping and didn't have to go through this horrible ordeal,  with me.  He's an angel,  but if I can leave him out of  at least some of the pain I'm in,  it's better all the way around.  He is also very sensitive,  and wants to help,  but of course he can't.

Our objective is to better understand the struggles our child faces and to learn the skills to improve our relationship and provide a supportive environment and also improve on our own emotional responses, attitudes and effectiveness as a family leaders

[jellibeans]

angeldust

I think we allgo through these periods from time to time... .  sometimes you just need a good cry. Our children with BPD are very demanding on us and we seem to take all the blame but you know that is not the case. I am glad you are back track. Holidays can be a very emotional time for everyone especially if there are issues with our children. Just remind yourself that your ds is sick... .  do what you can to help yourself understand and deal with this disorder... .  that is the best you can do for him and yourself... .  I hope you are having a good day today and the sun is shining down on you.  

[vivekananda]

All in all,  I have to just keep reading in order to stay on track,  I had a rather hard mothers day,  because I feel back into the old "this just isn't the way it should be"  I was gone on a little trip,  but stayed in my room a good bit of the day crying my heart out and wondering why why why? 

But now I'm back on tract this morning and will stay here.  as long as my friends here understand and can help me put things back into perspective.   

Angeldust, it is hard for us, but one of the things we can come to understand is that if we want to improve our relationship with our kid, the only thing we can change is how we do it... .  afterall the things we have done in the past haven't worked too well, have they?

You have it right, I think. The first thing is to take care of ourselves (self compassion). If we are not 'balanced' and on track, how can we expect our kids to be? The second thing is to learn as much as we can about BPD and our tools (boundaries and validation) - compassion for our kid, yes? When we are working on that stuff, we can begin to change and have to chance to try to improve our relationship with our kid. Isn't that the key to improve our situation?

On other posts you have emphasised how it isn't our fault, we are not guilty. And yes that is likely to be right. But we also need to acknowledge that the things we did didn't work well. It's not about blame, it's just how it was. If we think in terms of blame, we set ourselves down the wrong path, if we look behind or above the idea of blaming, if our perspective becomes wider and more open, we will be able to see clearer.

Does this make any sense to you? Please let me know what you think... .  I am here for you, I know we all are.

Cheers,

Vivek    

[angeldust1]

Oh my Vivek ,

How I do understand!  read my post on Revelation I've found",  it is so true,  and it was a little hard to hear that I didn't do everything right. I tried my best,  but sometimes even that is not good enough,  expecially where BPD is involved.   We tried,  but no one told us how important  validation is ,  until they have been in our situation and seen what doesn't work.

Now that I have been validated with my feelings,  I can move on to bigger and better things to help my BPD.  Agreed blaming is not the answer,   him or I.  It is counter productive,  I still need time to practice and learn how to do what needs to be done,   and it seems I will have lots of it.

Angel