Therapist records

[Before you can make things better, you have to stop making them worse...]

I'm not sure this will matter or not,but stbxw admitted in the therapist office that she talked badly about me to the kids.I'm wondering if it would be something to have for the court hearing?

She denied this before,but I knew it was happening and she finally admitted it to a third party.

Has anyone had any experience with this?I know it won't be the holy grail,but I've put together quite a bit of PA information and this seems to be just another piece to add.

[marbleloser]

I'm not sure this will matter or not,but stbxw admitted in the therapist office that she talked badly about me to the kids.I'm wondering if it would be something to have for the court hearing?

She denied this before,but I knew it was happening and she finally admitted it to a third party.

Has anyone had any experience with this?I know it won't be the holy grail,but I've put together quite a bit of PA information and this seems to be just another piece to add.

[ForeverDad]

Many therapists have it written into their agreements that they, and by extension, their records won't be called into court.  So I think a significant factor is the therapist's stance on sharing information with the court.  Was this marriage counseling or the children's therapist?

Me?  I got the (quasi-county) agency's records from the therapy sessions for my son.  The standard boilerplate on the temp custody order said both parents had access to the child's school and medical records.  It took over a year to get me un-blacklisted as a dangerous suspected child abuser with the agency, but a favorable parenting investigation and a direct court order did the trick.

The 200+ pages were reviewed by the custody evaluator but never used in family court.

[marbleloser]

This is the kids therapist.She's already signed a form allowing my atty to speak to her if needed.My atty had me get that signed as soon as I signed the kids up.

[marbleloser]

I had my recorder running,but it ran out of time. :/

I assume the therapist is recording,because there's no way in-between patients,that she has time to take notes.Hopefully,she documented that.If not,it won't hurt my case,but would have been an extra piece of evidence,since stbx denied doing that in her deposition.

[DreamGirl]

Sorry, I'm not sure where you are at as far as the divorce/custody process.

When is your next hearing?

Is it for final orders?

Is there a GAL or custody evaluator involved?

[marbleloser]

We haven't had a hearing,due to the court system being backed up and depositions we needed.

Had a false claim that was dismissed in the court room though.

The only hearing we'll have is a final one.No temp or pendente lite hearing.Judge only wants to hear it one time.

No GAL or CE at this time.

[DreamGirl]

We haven't had a hearing,due to the court system being backed up and depositions we needed.

Had a false claim that was dismissed in the court room though.

The only hearing we'll have is a final one.No temp or pendente lite hearing.Judge only wants to hear it one time.

No GAL or CE at this time.

Did you have mediation yet?

What is each side proposing as far as custody?

[marbleloser]

No mediation yet.We're 8 months in and just got the medical deposition we needed for the hearing 2 months ago.I think the custody hearing will be first and final,then we'll probably be asked to mediate for finances.I know it's only going to be heard once,according to my atty.Both sides were denied a pendente lite hearing.

I'm asking for primary,she's asking for full custody.

I filed.

[DreamGirl]

Sorry for all the questions - just trying to gain a feel for what's going on.

Therapist's records can be very relevant... . or not.

I know you don't have temporary orders - so what does the parenting schedule look like? Do you have a verbal agreement that you follow?

No mediation yet.We're 8 months in and just got the medical deposition we needed for the hearing 2 months ago.I think the custody hearing will be first and final,then we'll probably be asked to mediate for finances.I know it's only going to be heard once,according to my atty.Both sides were denied a pendente lite hearing.

I'm asking for primary,she's asking for full custody.

I filed.

"Full custody" as in sole decision making rights (medical, education, religion)?

What are the proposed parenting time schedules?

 

[marbleloser]

We have a standing order,that stipulates that visitation is "supposed" to remain as it was before the order was issued,or standard EOW plus one overnight during the week minimum.Her atty (wisely) told her to claim full custody of the kids and only allow me the standard visitation.(This amounts to more child support for her so she can pay him)

I denied that she had full custody,as I have proof otherwise for months before the order was issued,and was blocked access to them by her,except the standard visitation.

She admitted in deposition that I had had the kids much more than she was letting me have them prior to the order and that her atty told her to do that.She admitted that there is no reason whatsoever that I shouldn't be getting at least equal time with the kids.

This is why I think this issue may be important.It shows the continued pattern of alienation.

Yes,she wants sole decision making.Of course,this is just a tactic being used by her atty that would get her more cs.Right now,I'm paying the maximum cs the state will make me pay.

[Matt]

A couple of thoughts... .

First, if one side is asking for "full custody" and the other isn't, that may bias things.  Consider asking not just for primary residential custody, and legal custody, but also for supervised visitation for the other party, if you have solid reason to believe alienation may be going on.  It could be supervised, a few hours a week, til it's clear the alienation has ended, and then unsupervised after that.

One side asking for a gallon and the other side asking for a quarter - whoever asks for more is likely to get more.

Second, consider deposing the other party.  Your lawyer would have to file a motion and it's likely to be granted, because it doesn't take any of the judge's time;  in fact it might even reduce the amount of time the judge will have to commit to the case.

If the other party is deposed, she will be sworn in just like in court - it's likely to take place in one of the attorneys' offices - and then your attorney can ask her anything relevant to the case, and her answers will be recorded, on audio or maybe by a court recorder.

The point is, her attorney must advise her to answer everything truthfully, especially if there is any chance that a third party may testify about it;  so if she is asked, ":)id you state X to the child's therapist?" she will have to either admit what she said, or make a false statement under oath, which is a crime.  Either way, your attorney can follow up with other questions about that - ask for more details - which will either emphasize what she did, or make it more likely that she'll screw up and it will be clear she is lying.

Then there will be time to deal with the results of depositions.  For example, if she lies, it will be easier to get the therapist to testify, because it will be more clearly relevant - her testimony will either confirm or contradict sworn statements by one of the parties.

A key to this approach is that an attorney is ethically obligated to advise her client so as to avoid criminal liability;  that means if the other party's attorney understand that her client has lied under oath, she will have to advise her to settle rather than go in front of a judge, where she would be at high risk of being found guilty of lying under oath.  Your attorney can completely shift the focus of the case to "She is alienating the child and giving false information to the court" - she will look very bad, especially since there have already been false accusations in the case... .

[ForeverDad]

One side asking for a gallon and the other side asking for a quarter - whoever asks for more is likely to get more.

So true.  So true.

We are typically fair-minded people, to us fairness, niceness and politeness guide our choices and requests.  However, family court is like other courts, it is an adversarial experience.  Being nice, fair, polite or reasonable doesn't get much attention there.  As the saying goes, the person misbehaving seldom gets consequences and the person behaving properly seldom gets credit.

As you already probably know, you cannot be timid and expect the court to figure things out with minimal input.  This is a time to be proactive, assertive and forthright, stating what you feel is best for the children and the family members overall.  Yes, the court is likely to ignore the posturing and pick something in between, but at least you present your case strongly and assertively, that you want to be an involved parent.

No harm in seeking custody, not even if you don't expect to get it.  One thing to learn is that you don't ask for what you think you'll get.  If you do that then you'll almost certainly not get more and possibly get even less. :'(  Ask for more, ask for what's best for the kids.  Then if the judge is even halfway good you'll at least get a decent outcome even if not optimal.  Besides, that way you'll be letting the court know what you want.  If you ask only for what you figure you'll get, then they'll assume that's all you want.  They figure most dads are willing to walk away, take a minor parenting role and just fork over their wallets.  You need to show them that's not who you are.  Does that make sense?

... . In a city I had resided in years ago, many rents were regulated and far below market values, rent increases decided in bulk by a housing board and as a consequence the landlord/tenant relationship was very adversarial.  Hmm, just like high conflict divorces in family court.  Well, I recall one year someone on the board said, "Both sides are unhappy with this year's decisions so that means we did a good job."  My point?  Family court has the inclination to not let either side feel he or she won or lost.  The officials aren't there to blame or credit anyone*, they are more than willing to choose a middle ground.

To illustrate:

  Passive/timid Parent:

    You ask for 50/50.

    StbEx asks for 100% full custody, demands all your earnings and wishes you disappeared.

    Court might split the difference and give you alternate weekends.

  Proactive/empowered Parent:

    You ask for custody and majority time.

    StbEx asks for 100% full custody, demands all your earnings and wishes you disappeared.

    Court might split the difference and give you 50/50.

I'm not saying it always works that way, it doesn't.  But my point is:  If you don't ask for it you surely won't get it.  If you do ask for it, you might get it or at least maybe get more than if you were timid or passive.  Another point to make is that you need to convince the court and other officials (social workers, school, etc) that you really do want to parent and that you demonstrate your parenting would be the best for the children.

* In family court, the misbehaving one generally doesn't have consequences and the properly behaving one generally doesn't get credit.

[marbleloser]

She's already been deposed.I requested supervised visitation for other reasons.

Yes,she's already been caught in lies,and strangely admitted to the things I had no proof of.

She requested "full" as a counter to my "primary".I filed first.

In her deposition,she stated that there is no reason she can give that I shouldn't have at least equal time with the kids.She's just keeping them from me because her L told her to.

[DreamGirl]

In her deposition,she stated that there is no reason she can give that I shouldn't have at least equal time with the kids.She's just keeping them from me because her L told her to.

marble - I've been trying to read the background - your wife isn't disordered... . is she?

It sounds like her lawyer is giving her some pretty bad advice - as some sort of tactical move?

She doesn't even sound like she thinks you're a "bad dad", she's just trying to counter your filing with her own to get "full custody".

As a parent who was awarded "sole custody" (as in full custody/sole decision making in all aspects of my oldest son's life), it is very important that I foster the relationship between my son and his father (the non-custodial parent). If your wife is not fostering your relationship, that is certainly relevant.

So I might not go in there with guns blazing saying "she is alienating me from the children!" but more of an approach that says "It's in the children's best interest to have both parents in their life and she is not supporting the relationship between the kids and their father." Then you give the evidence/testimony that supports that statement - emails, parenting time withheld, therapist's testimony perhaps(?).

I was accused of parental alienation (and it's surprising how guilty we can all be of it, actually - to which I was to a certain extent) and it took my son's therapist to testify that I was doing the best I could to support the relationship between my son and his biological father.  That my concerns were valid.  Otherwise it becomes a battle of he said/she said - with both of us thinking we were in the right.      

If a judge doesn't feel comfortable making the decision for you, I foresee an evaluator (or GAL) being ordered. I never had a custody evaluation but the therapist was agreed upon by both sides with helping in making a determination as far as a visitation schedule.  So the Judge basically agreed with the therapist. End of the line. I was awarded full custody - him supervised therapeutic visitation.

I just don't know that a Judge is going to determine custody without a third party involved. (I could certainly be wrong)

Especially when you've both been active parents in the kid's life up until now. (My son's dad was not)

I know you are worried about your kid's wellbeing while in their mom's care. I would definitely focus on that - and it sounds like that is what your attorney is doing, stating that it's in their best interest to be in your care primarily. Just don't get in the poo slinging game. It never helps matters and it makes us look like the other half of the high conflict dynamic rather then the person dealing with a high conflict person.

It's interesting that there isn't any reason on her part to have full custody. It sounds like she's perhaps using ForeverDad's tactic - and really only wants 50/50.

~DreamGirl

[marbleloser]

"your wife isn't disordered... . is she?"

Yes,she's disordered.Even my atty,upon checking up on her,said she's known to be crazy.

She meets the criteria of BPD and NPD.Untruths are common with her.So many that I didn't recognize alot of them while married.I didn't recognize some parts of how disordered until we seperated for a while and reflected back on things.

She really doesn't want the kids full time,but she does want the money,so what better way to get it,right?

I imagine she distorted the truth to her atty and he went with what he heard.Doesn't sound like a good move on his part court wise,but to maximize support it was.

[Matt]

If her attorney is advising her to violate the 50/50 agreement - if it was made in good faith, even if it wasn't formalized through the court - that is unethical.  If you can get her to say on the record that her attorney advised her to do that, it might go a long way in ruining the attorney's credibility with the court.

Your attorney should also be in his (your ex's attorney's) face about that.  No more cooperation of any kind - the gloves are off - which might mean criminal risk for his client - if he does not insist that his client abide by what she agreed to.

[marbleloser]

Funny you should say that Matt.The week previous to her claiming full custody,we had agreed via text that I would have the kids for that weekend.She told me that agreement changed when the standing order was issued.

She did say it on record in deposition.