Is BPD rage just the adult version of a temper tantrum?

[Before you can make things better, you have to stop making them worse...]

When you see BPD rage for the first time and you have children, the very first thing that comes to your mind is "temper tantrum." That is exactly what it is. I am convinced of this. The BPD rage and hysteria is a grown up, scarier version of a toddler's temper tantrum. I have had some success treating it the way I treated my children's temper tantrums: ignore them. That coupled with medication has all but eliminated them in my house. That has started me thinking... .

I have had the best results with my husband when I DON'T treat him like an adult, so to say. Giving him responsibility and expecting him to carry it as an adult would has only resulted in failure after failure, no matter how much coaching and teaching I gave him. Would it be more beneficial to simply accept that our loved ones truly ARE very young children who really can't be expected to understand or carry the responsibilities of an adult? I know that many of us pay lip service to that ideal but it's hard to look at a grown man and try to remember that he cannot be expected to know better. Treating him like an adult just seems to set him up to fail eventually and treating him like a child is only so successful; it sometimes results in a surly "child" who "defies" me (not paying bills, doing things he knows I don't like) just to do it. Of course, he acts that way anyway no matter what. It's part of the disorder.

The problem I guess is that in some ways he IS an adult but in some ways he really isn't, so knowing how to deal with a person like that is difficult. You cannot treat them as either because neither works entirely. A lot of the tools used to communicate with people who have BPD miror the way we would talk to very young children. Might it not be beneficial to embrace that fully? They are after all, wounded children lashing out in pain and feeling unloved and abandoned by their caregivers.

Could it be possible to re-parent a person with BPD and "raise" them correctly? I have found so many things over the years that my husband was never taught by his parents, and not just empathy and things like that. I mean normal, everyday things that we all know, like not to run with scissors, common courtesy and manners, how to say please and thank you, how to deal with people on the phone, that you have to work for things you want... . I have had to teach him all of these things and more.

Could this be the right approach? What do you think?

[Sin_M]

When you see BPD rage for the first time and you have children, the very first thing that comes to your mind is "temper tantrum." That is exactly what it is. I am convinced of this. The BPD rage and hysteria is a grown up, scarier version of a toddler's temper tantrum. I have had some success treating it the way I treated my children's temper tantrums: ignore them. That coupled with medication has all but eliminated them in my house. That has started me thinking... .

I have had the best results with my husband when I DON'T treat him like an adult, so to say. Giving him responsibility and expecting him to carry it as an adult would has only resulted in failure after failure, no matter how much coaching and teaching I gave him. Would it be more beneficial to simply accept that our loved ones truly ARE very young children who really can't be expected to understand or carry the responsibilities of an adult? I know that many of us pay lip service to that ideal but it's hard to look at a grown man and try to remember that he cannot be expected to know better. Treating him like an adult just seems to set him up to fail eventually and treating him like a child is only so successful; it sometimes results in a surly "child" who "defies" me (not paying bills, doing things he knows I don't like) just to do it. Of course, he acts that way anyway no matter what. It's part of the disorder.

The problem I guess is that in some ways he IS an adult but in some ways he really isn't, so knowing how to deal with a person like that is difficult. You cannot treat them as either because neither works entirely. A lot of the tools used to communicate with people who have BPD miror the way we would talk to very young children. Might it not be beneficial to embrace that fully? They are after all, wounded children lashing out in pain and feeling unloved and abandoned by their caregivers.

Could it be possible to re-parent a person with BPD and "raise" them correctly? I have found so many things over the years that my husband was never taught by his parents, and not just empathy and things like that. I mean normal, everyday things that we all know, like not to run with scissors, common courtesy and manners, how to say please and thank you, how to deal with people on the phone, that you have to work for things you want... . I have had to teach him all of these things and more.

Could this be the right approach? What do you think?

[Sin_M]

By the way... . by "treating him like a child" I don't mean giving him a curfew or any kind of thing like that. I mean as far as my mindset and expectations of him. Treating him as an adult has had some success; he can hold a job now, for instance. I don't want to imply that it has NO success but I think there are some things he is just never going to be able to do. Maybe in those areas it would be better to just accept it and react the way I would to, say... . a 2 year old.

[yeeter]

I get the concept, but don't think it's quite all the way there.

Indeed, he is not a normal healthy emotionally developed individual (none of are to some degree or another).  He has a disorder.

And some ofit might be twarted emotional development (some say emotional development of a 13 yr old or such)

But as you point out.  He is not a child.  There are some similarities, but I think it's healthier to just view it as the disorder that it is.  Which at times recognizing that there are some things he just does not know how to do because it was never developed, or maybe development isn't even possible.

If treating as a child it implies a parent child dynamic that doesn't sound like the best balance.  And doesn't consider the possibility that there may be fundamental limits in what he is even capable of, no matter how much 'training'

Then there is always the subtle implication of superiority if you take this approach.  

Acceptance is a great start which sounds like you are doing.  And then working on ways of interacting to help positive change, which again sounds like you are doing.   

$.02

[Sin_M]

@Yeeter: Yes, and that is why there is hesitance with all of it, because he is NOT a child and I don't WANT a child, I want a husband. However, you love people as they are. And really, I think in the BPD relationship, there is ALWAYS some semblance of a parent-child relationship because they view you as a caretaker rather than an adult partner. Many of them seem to see themselves as children rather than adults. I know that in many ways my husband certainly does. I was thinking along the lines of... . maybe they could better heal if it actually BECOMES the parent-child relationship for a time, rather than just a poor replacement. Not forever and not fully but in some ways, like the way a mother nurtures a child and provides acceptance, guidance and love. You do not engage with an adult partner like that most of the time but maybe that is what they need: to replace the "bad parent" with a "good parent." All the problems stem from feeling rejected and abandoned by the parent(s).

Perhaps this way of thinking can help but only if it is sincere. Like, we do not feel superior to our children. We do not expect things from our children that they cannot do. We are understanding when our children make "stupid mistakes" or when their feelings overwhelm them. These things might not be true of an adult relationship. We DO provide boundaries, guidance, validation, acceptance, safety and love for our children. These are all things the BP desperately needs but cannot understand or accept in the context of an adult relationship. I'm just really thinking out loud but the more I think about it, the more sense it makes to me and the more I remember times when I reacted that way and it really seemed to help. Of course it is not a long-term solution but perhaps as a stepping stone to getting somewhere else, it could work. The goal is not to KEEP the person a child but to progress through that to being a more fully-functional adult.

[bruceli]

When you see BPD rage for the first time and you have children, the very first thing that comes to your mind is "temper tantrum." That is exactly what it is. I am convinced of this. The BPD rage and hysteria is a grown up, scarier version of a toddler's temper tantrum. I have had some success treating it the way I treated my children's temper tantrums: ignore them. That coupled with medication has all but eliminated them in my house. That has started me thinking... .

I have had the best results with my husband when I DON'T treat him like an adult, so to say. Giving him responsibility and expecting him to carry it as an adult would has only resulted in failure after failure, no matter how much coaching and teaching I gave him. Would it be more beneficial to simply accept that our loved ones truly ARE very young children who really can't be expected to understand or carry the responsibilities of an adult? I know that many of us pay lip service to that ideal but it's hard to look at a grown man and try to remember that he cannot be expected to know better. Treating him like an adult just seems to set him up to fail eventually and treating him like a child is only so successful; it sometimes results in a surly "child" who "defies" me (not paying bills, doing things he knows I don't like) just to do it. Of course, he acts that way anyway no matter what. It's part of the disorder.

The problem I guess is that in some ways he IS an adult but in some ways he really isn't, so knowing how to deal with a person like that is difficult. You cannot treat them as either because neither works entirely. A lot of the tools used to communicate with people who have BPD miror the way we would talk to very young children. Might it not be beneficial to embrace that fully? They are after all, wounded children lashing out in pain and feeling unloved and abandoned by their caregivers.

Could it be possible to re-parent a person with BPD and "raise" them correctly? I have found so many things over the years that my husband was never taught by his parents, and not just empathy and things like that. I mean normal, everyday things that we all know, like not to run with scissors, common courtesy and manners, how to say please and thank you, how to deal with people on the phone, that you have to work for things you want... . I have had to teach him all of these things and more.

Could this be the right approach? What do you think?

NONE of my children have even come NEAR the level of ranting and raving that the PD's in my life have.

[AnitaL]

One of my children has a tendency to have a complete, raging, meltdown when she's overtired, and it reminds me so much of my H when he's dysregulated.  I have actually found many parallels between them, so in a sense I agree with this idea.  But mostly for me it's about trying to focus on remembering there's someone I love deeply underneath this raging (big or little) person. I also know that leaving my D3 for a "timeout" does NOT work because she mostly just needs a reminder she is loved and that I am not leaving her.  My H essentially needs this too.  I don't think the parallels go too far beyond this, but I do think the similarities can help provide insight into how best to handle both situations.

[Sin_M]

@bruceli: My kids never got too into the tantrum cycle because I always stopped it right away but my nieces and nephews were HUGE tantrum throwers who would rage sometimes for HOURS. It can get scary even when they are little because of the sheer ferocity of it, just like BPD rage. In a sense I guess, it is really both for the same reason, too. Toddlers rage because they are overwhelmed and upset, just like a BP.

@Anita: That's what I'm talking about: more about OUR mindset as far as relating to them and expectations and understanding. If we could view both rages as out of control children, maybe that can help as far as dealing with it.

[bruceli]

PDw is not what I would call an all out ragger... . She's more the covert, passive/aggressive get even type.  Also, in regards to childlike... . She is the prepetual 14-16 year old girl in a body of a 50 year old for sure... .  

[Sin_M]

@bruceli: Ahhh yes I understand. Well, my sister has BPD and so dose my husband. Both are DEDICATED ragers for sure! My husband is like a waif/rage combo. He is Mr. Poor Little Me I'm So Lost And Alone but he is also a cauldron of rage and anger.

[tundraphile]

My short answer to your question is yes and no, but mostly I agree with your hypothesis.

I think some people actually become addicted to the adrenaline of throwing a raging fit.  I have listened to recovery physicians that have said people with bipolar can be resistant to treatment because they don't want to give up how the rage feels.  Probably the same with BPD.  Imagine you go through life, either numb emotionally or the only emotions are negative.  Rage/anger is also negative, but it is also very stimulating.  Your heart races, you turn red or purple, and while in that state they experience a heightened sense of the world that normally they aren't able to expeirence.  The "rageaholics" I describe here probably don't fit the temper tantrum.

But throwing a huge screaming fit, maybe breaking a few things along the way, can also be an effective manipulation tool.  This is where I agree with the adult version of a tantrum.  The child doesn't get their way, so they throw themselves down in the toy aisle and make things so unpleasant for their parents, sometimes they give in just to get them to be quiet.  The adult BPD does something similar, rages to such a degree that their partner caves in.  

In all this behavior is an underlying threat: I want my way and intend to get it even if it means destroying you.  The child doesn't have much leverage, an adult doing the same can be ruinous both financially and emotionally to their spouse.  I posted a thread last year that conflict with a BPD is like playing chicken, but you know they will never turn the wheel of their car.  

In my case, I understand I have given in far too many times to her rages and unreasonable demands.  This only encourages her further.  Getting out of that cycle has proven to be very, very, difficult.

[SadWifeofBPD]

Could it be possible to re-parent a person with BPD and "raise" them correctly? I have found so many things over the years that my husband was never taught by his parents, and not just empathy and things like that. I mean normal, everyday things that we all know, like not to run with scissors, common courtesy and manners, how to say please and thank you, how to deal with people on the phone, that you have to work for things you want... . I have had to teach him all of these things and more.

even tho I'm now on the Staying board, your post applies to people who are staying as well, so I hope the mods don't mind me posting here since the topic isn't one that really deals with the question of staying or leaving.

I could have written the above quote.  I've wondered the same.  I've also had to teach H some basics that his parents/mother NEVER taught him... . including "don't stop the car on railroad tracks," the correct way to hold scissors when walking, the correct way to use a broom, when shopping for dairy/bakery products, check the dates, etc.  Yes, you can re-parent some of these things when the pwBPD isn't dysregulating and is willing to learn/pay attention.