What do I tell my teenaged kids about their dad?

[dimples2]

My husband (who I am inching towards leaving) has an okay relationship with our 3 teenaged kids but they all know something is wrong. Our eldest has confronted him twice during his rages telling him "there is something seriously wrong with you" and has also given him feedback on his inappropriate attention-seeking behaviour. Our middle child just quietly leaves the situation or stands up for himself (which impresses my husband). Our youngest at 14 is the most stressed and constantly comments that dad is irritating him.

My question is What do I say at this point? I am getting things in order to separate in the next few months but feel I should address things directly with each child. Is this wrong? I feel I would be talking behind his back. He does not have a formal diagnosis but since we all see the behaviours and have been the targets of his rages, controlling behaviours etc. I'm wondering if I should describe the features and show that he fits with BPD, also explaining that I have tried many times to get him to seek help but he always goes back to being in denial (even after he's admitted he needs help in e-mails and starts the process of getting a diagnosis).

My general policy has been to say nothing although with 2 of them I have mentioned he has issues that require help and I feel this is not enough.

[Thunderstruck]

What is your motivation behind this? So the kids think you are "right" in leaving him?

My vote is say nothing until you serve your husband with the papers. The kids don't need to get involved in adult drama. After the separation tell them things didn't work out and that you love them very much and daddy loves them very much. If they've seen the behaviors and fighting, they'll probably figure it out for themselves.

[Dragonfly52]

I am in the same situation with my husband.  I am currently buying a home to move out but am waiting for the financing to go through.  I have 3 children, two are still at home ages 11 and 13.  My 13 year old has struggled with her dad the most and I have tried to talk quite openly with her about it.  I think it is important for them to understand that the things BPs do are not normal and are not what normal caring people would do.  And I don't want them to find a man like their dad. I feel like I need to be open with my daughter's about the situation so that they can talk to me when they are confused or frustrated with him.  It has nothing to do with feeling justified for leaving him. Just helping them understand what is going on.  I want to help them learn to accept the good things about their dad, and understand why he does the other things.  It has taken me 20 years to figure it out.  He will always be their dad and the more they know about BPD the better for them.  Then they don't take things personally.

 

[mamachelle]

Hi dimples2 and Dragonfly52,



Here is a good article to take a look at:

What to Tell the Kids About a High-Conflict Co-Parent

https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=203238.0

I think every kid is different and it takes time to figure out what you need to tell them. I don't think telling them that their Dad may have BPD will change anything for the better. In fact, it's likely to confuse them more since you are both in the early stages of separation and divorce.

As they get older you can talk to them more openly depending on their maturity.

The kids need to find ways they can cope with their Dad in whatever capacity that is possible. I would suggest getting the kids into individual therapy if they are willing to go so they can work on their own issues. Also a therapist can assess their maturity and readiness for knowing more about their Dad's illness.

mamachelle

[dimples2]

I am most definitely not trying to tell my kids that I am "right" - in fact I have spent my entire marriage trying to figure out how I've been so wrong. Just by saying so little over the years, my kids say very little and I don't really know what they are thinking or understanding, except for my youngest. Saying the mummy loves you daddy loves you just seems to gloss over the reality. They know that but they don't know why dad treats us all badly and is so embarrassing, unpredictable and controlling. They are involved in the drama because it comes straight at them or me without warning. I do not want them to think less of their father - in fact it makes me sad to see how he doesn't get as much respect as a father should - he's brought that on himself by his behaviour. If they have more details, maybe they could see him more objectively as I do now. Thinking in terms of BPD has helped me soo much in the last few months. I am just unsure as to whether mature teenagers should be told that about their dad.

Like Dragonfly 52, it has taken me over 20 years to figure out that his behaviour is not normal (although he's convinced me that it is) and I am just realizing my kids are probably thinking they must be the cause of at least some of it because of how angry he gets and the way he twists situations. Thanks Mamachelle - that article looks very useful - I will consider what it says before I proceed.

[mamachelle]

dimples2,

Hey, please do read the article. It is geared toward slightly younger kids but there is much wisdom there. I am a parent and step parent. I have 5 kids aged 9-16 that I am parenting that have 1 BPD Parent. I am remarried and both my ExH and my H's exW have BPD.

My 2 DD 13 and 16 know about BPD now after many years but my SS 9, 10 and 15 don't. All 5 kids know there is something wrong with the other parent. We have been a blended family for 6 years. So they are not living majority time with the other parent. They are not going through a divorce. They do not have to see the other parent regularly.

I think getting your kids into therapy and working through this stuff with their therapist is best. The downside of "spilling the beans' about BPD is that while it may be wonderful for you, your kids may feel anger, confusion, fear that they may catch BPD. They may be angry at you.  If you have no safe place for them to talk out their feelings then you end up being therapist as well and having to explain the illness to them.

Sometimes saying less, not making excuses, is best. Support them and validate their feelings.

A great book to pick up is:

I Don't Have to Make Everything all Better.

This stuff is hard and if you want to tell them you can. Just be ready to listen to what they have to say and don't expect miracles. My 2 DD 'get it' but they are still very confused by their Dad's behavior. Knowing a bit about BPD helps but the trauma and pain is still there.

I hope this helps.


mamachelle

[Thunderstruck]

Sorry to come off as harsh. I agree with what mamachelle said exactly:

I think getting your kids into therapy and working through this stuff with their therapist is best. The downside of "spilling the beans' about BPD is that while it may be wonderful for you, your kids may feel anger, confusion, fear that they may catch BPD. They may be angry at you.  If you have no safe place for them to talk out their feelings then you end up being therapist as well and having to explain the illness to them.

Sometimes saying less, not making excuses, is best. Support them and validate their feelings.

If you want to talk to them about daddy's behavior when they bring it up, supporting their feelings and confirm that "no, such-and-such behavior is not normal" sounds ok. Saying ":)addy has BPD" translates to ":)addy is crazy" and can give them a negative opinion of their father. If they have an "okay relationship" then keep it as such and do everything in your power to keep it that way. That will be what's best for them.

This doesn't need to be tied to the divorce, though. I'd keep the reasons for the separation between you and stbX only.

[dimples2]

I read the article and realized pretty quickly it was for young kids. My kids are definitely far more mature and need more information than I've provided. I have spent years saying the things that are in the article but just feel like it's not enough now. I have started using the term "mentally unwell" with my 20 year old who has some knowledge about mental illness. I'm not going to say BPD at all since it's so easy for them to look it up and learn too much about it. But, they definitely need to know that his behaviour is absolutely unacceptable and that article just doesn't say it firmly enough, again maybe because it's for younger kids.

There is a lot of diagnosed mental illness on my husband's side (father, sister, cousins... . ) and anxiety/depression on my side (mother, sister) so it is a topic we don't shy away from in our house - just never about their dad until I finally "woke up" a few months ago and realized there was something seriously wrong with my husband. I don't believe they will worry about turning out like him. Maybe younger kids do but I just don't see that with mine. They may be angry with me no matter what is said or happens at this point.

I would like them to have some therapy but I doubt I'll be able to get them to go - since they barely want to talk about the issue and 2 of them are young adults.

[mamachelle]

dimples2,

You are doing the right thing. Your instincts are fine. Let us know how it goes. Many others here struggle with this so your input is important. Also check out the Healing Board for those stories of adult children with PD parents.

My kids always surprise me with their reactions/observations.

My DD16 last year said her cheerleading coach reminded her of her Dad (who she has not seen for 4 years). I said why? She said, "Mom, she was crying and saying she was a terrible coach and none of us really knew what to say... . because she is pretty terrible... . and she lies all the time and she deserves to be yelled at and she is so awful to me and yeah- it reminded me of Dad"

I think you should tell your kids what seems ok to you-- and emphasize that this is not an easy fix. I would look into therapy for you and maybe a few sessions with each kid and you.

A divorce is a big deal. Dad being mentally ill and not easily treated is a big deal. It's a process.

mamachelle

[dimples2]

Thanks for your support. My friends tell me I'm thinking through things carefully and I know I am a pretty level headed person - probably part of the reason why my husband attached himself to me! The Healing Board looks good too. I'm sure my kids have more insight that I imagine - I've been the one with blinders on all these years struggling to make sense of his behaviours.

Divorce is something I absolutely never imagined I would ever need or even consider. Then I let myself think about it one day and it was like I turned a corner. There was a way out of all this emotional turmoil. It's just making sure because I know he will get worse before he gets better and there is no going back.

I have had some therapy which was really helpful - more than I would have ever imagined. I think I would have eventually figured some things out but it helped me gain perspective and stop blaming myself and thinking about being nicer, better, etc. I have to face the fact that some damage has been done to my kids because they've been exposed to his rages and I've been fooling myself thinking that staying with him is better for them. He is truly in a different place mentally than I am and he would rather risk losing me than have to face issues that are just so painful for him.

I will post here more as things progress.

[nevaeh]

I read the article and found that I guess I have been employing those tactics for quite some time with my D15, S12, and S8.

Each kid obviously has their own way of dealing with things and their own personality.  For me, my level of openness is directly related to their age.  I have had much more open discussions with my D15, although I don't think I've ever mentioned BPD, just agreeing with her observations that he has some serious issues he deals with (or doesn't deal with, as the case may be).

It is a little more tricky with my S12 because he has been the target of many of H's rages, unfortunately.  S12 is more high maintenance, having ADD, and some anxiety and depression, although he has gotten much better in the past couple of years.  He has been subjected to H's rages so much that it's almost disturbing to me how well he bounces back from them.  S12 is pretty sensitive and also not the best at controlling his emotions.  After an outburst or one of H's "down" periods, I have a lot of conversations with S12 about how he can react to H's requests or comments so as to minimize becoming the target of an outburst/rage.  S12 has a tendency to "argue" with H or talk a subject to death (as teens sometimes do) but this is also a huge trigger for H.  So, we have talked about triggers (S12 knows what that means now) and how to avoid becoming or creating a trigger.  I think that he does a pretty good job of dealing with H but we still do have our problems.  But S12 also has a pretty good understanding that H is how he is, he can't necessarily "control" his rages/temper/comments, and that he got that way mostly because that is how his dad was and how he was raised.  S12 and I have had MANY discussions about that and he also knows that isn't an excuse nor does it make H's behavior right, it just helps him to understand and hopefully not take everything so personally.

S8 is a natural people-pleaser and doesn't have a lot of issues with H.  However, H will dish out horrible comments to him occasionally.  For example, the other night I was late getting home and they were at home waiting for me so we could go out to dinner.  S8 could see that H was getting mad (at me) so he went in the other room to call and ask me when I would be home.  I found out later that when he told his dad that he had called me and I would be there in 5 minutes, H called him an effing helicopter for calling me.  S8 is my "baby" and we are very close, so it hurts him so badly when H makes comments discounting or criticizing our relationship.  I have similar conversations with S8 as I do with S12, but I don't get into as much detail and try to make sure that I don't make S8 "hate" his dad. 

I really want the kids to have a good relationship with their dad and I don't want to be the cause of them hating him.  It's a fine line sometimes because I can get so angry with H that I need to vent but I try really hard not to vent to the kids.  They have witnessed H's rages... . they have seen me react in anger and have witnessed some pretty intense screaming matches... . they have seen me defend them and know that I will go to unlimited lengths to protect them... . they have seen me react calmly and have seen me trying to "talk H down" from one of his rages.  So, I think they have seen me use a lot of different tactics in dealing with H, even though some of them haven't necessarily been the best. 

I think it's important for them to know, for later on, that I didn't completely roll over and let H treat me like crap and that they see me confront him on some of his crazy behaviors.  I don't want them to grow up thinking that they have to tolerate that kind of behavior from someone they love. 

So I think it's right to follow your gut instincts.  You know your kids' personalities and what they may or may not be able to handle as well as what they need to understand in order to make sense of what they witness on a daily basis.  The older they get the more explanation they need and can also handle.

Btw, I have been with H for 18 years.  I am ready to leave, just trying to figure out how to make it happen.

[dimples2]

Wow Java Mom,

Your life sounds just like mine except I've been married for 22 years and my kids are exactly 5 years older than yours - D20, S18, S14. I have gone through exactly what you've done and used all the same strategies. It's a lot of work and I feel badly that my kids had to learn strategies when they were so young. None of them defend me in front of him or warn me which I interpret as them feeling I can handle things on my own rather than them not caring. Sometimes I wish they would say something to me though. They all stand up to him which my H is very proud of. Strange, but he really only gets extremes, just not with me.

Anyways, I am slowly making it happen. I started by telling friends of mine who I can trust completely and have no connection to our social circle. Now I've started with people who are trustworthy but have known both of us for decades. They have been supportive and that has really helped - even though he/we hid it so well.

I met with a counsellor for about 8 sessions to gain more perspective. I've found a lawyer who deals with high conflict people and I'm getting everything in order from that angle too. I know he will be extremely angry and vindictive but I really don't care at this point as I am so detached - that took the most work but now that I'm here, it's fantastic! H tried to bait me through e-mails 2 times yesterday and I did not take it. A few short months ago I would have responded immediately and try to make him see things clearly. Not anymore. So, no drama yesterday and I actually was able to work rather than being a distracted nervous wreck focused on him.

I have a small business of my own which has the potential for huge success (I am presenting at a conference on Monday at a University where my husband (PhD) has tried to get work at for over 10 years). I have always been told that his career is SOO important and I have kept my work as more of a hobby and looked after the kids. I know he is extremely jealous that I have gotten in there despite all of his efforts to keep me off-balance and under his control.

I think it helps that my kids are just that bit older. In the past I would envision my youngest stuck with dad for a whole weekend even though he didn't want to be there, possibly being raged at and I put the thought of leaving H out of my mind. Now, I figure he will do what he wants. I accept the fact that I will have some holidays without my kids and who knows, maybe one of them will want to spend more time with dad or even live with him. No problem I say! Maybe I will lose some of our mutual friends to H. Who cares - they weren't really my friends anyways. Plus, he'll need all the support he can get. I have been feeling like crap for so long and I am now feeling some physical symptoms.

I hope you can find your way out too. For me, it was getting into the right frame of mind and then finding the starting point. Now everything's flowing - slowly, but flowing. The other surprise is that every single person I've told is either in a similar situation (one was a complete surprise) or have a family member in a similar situation that I again would not have suspected. Good luck and thanks for your post.

[nevaeh]

Hi Dimples

Yes our stories sound very similar, in a lot of ways!

I, too, have stayed much longer than I have wanted to because of fears about the kids (boys in particular) being stuck spending long weekends/visitation with H.  The fear of H having a rage and me not being there to protect the kids was enough to help me squash any thoughts of leaving in the past.

My boys actually do have fun with H when he's in a good mood.  The three of us (boys and I) were having a conversation about H last night and they told me they had a really good time with H when he took them to a semi-pro soccer game the other night.  They told me there were no problems and H was fun to be with.  They also said they like being with him when he's like that, and when he's in a good mood, but went on to explain how you can't really get H in to a good mood... . he just has to decide he's going to be in a good mood for it to work.  It made me feel good for the boys to verbalize to me their understanding that their dad's "moods" are HIS choice, not a result of something they have or have not done and that it's outside of their power to change his mood.

Sometimes I think that if H didn't have to live with the kids he would enjoy them much more.  They are actually triggers for him, if that makes any sense.  He triggers when they don't "obey", when they don't pick up after themselves, when they fight/bicker, when they "make fun" of him (which he does to them all the time... . he just can't take what he dishes out).  So if his only responsibility for the kids was to entertain them for a weekend I think he might actually be a great dad.  Worst case, if he can't handle not raging when they are visiting I know they will tell me or call me and I could deal with it from there.

Like you, I have started sharing my desires to leave with a very few close family and friends.  There are several people in my life who know and at least partially understand what I have been through over the years.  I don't know how close I am to leaving, except to say that I would like to have it happen within the next 2-3 months. 

Are you still together now or are you separated? 

[dimples2]

Still together but I have his mother staying with us right now and she's noticing everything I am - his agitation, constant anger and his tendancy to avoid situations with people he knows well (all new friendships are so fantastic that's his main focus now).

I would have to say we are again similar in terms of our husbands and the kids - especially the boys. If H is in a good mood and all is going smoothly and under his control, they have a great time with him. But, it can all change in a flash and they seem to know it (just my younger one recognizes that). H threatened divorce twice in June (over nothing and I squashed it only because the boys were right in the middle of exams) and his response was: I'm moving to the chalet! Wow, I thought - no attempt to have the kids with him since it's 2 hours away and isolated from everyone close to us, including all of our family.

Gotta go. H is done bbqing and he's irritated I haven't jumped up as soon as he came in. Separation is going to happen by early fall. I want it to be his idea - no trouble triggering it - or the kids will trigger a rage by something minor such as leaving a light on in the basement or allegedly breaking something, taking something of H's. Organizing everything will the lawyer.

[Rubies]

The best advice I can offer is to get your kids established with a counselor before separation and divorce is filed.  That way they have their 3rd party safe person to talk and deal issues with during the life changing events. 

It reduces the possibility of BPD's accusations of parental alienation by you of being taken as credible, and reduces his ability of splitting and pitting the children.

My BPDxh absolutely destroyed his relationship with DD to where she feared getting in a car with him without a cell phone.  He kidnapped her, constantly lied to her, creeped her with emotional incest, refused to meet her basic needs, and raged to engage.   She spent her weekends with him holed up in her room radio or TV blasting to drown him out.  Yet he accuses me of parental alienation and "brainwashing", because of course, it's never his fault.

She chose NC when she turned 18.  She made that decision a few month before after being overwhelmed by BS, discovering he had her phone when she thought she lost it and was upset and he'd deleted her "Safe" numbers, including mine.

Her position is she shouldn't need therapy just because she talked to family.  Counseling is down to once a month instead of once a week.

[dimples2]

Yes, I agree that counselling is important for them - if they'll go. We jut got back from a holiday and while I structured most of it to meet his needs, of course there were some "episodes" but thankfully no rages. He is now "rewriting" some parts to erase the parts that illustrated his issues the most. I absolutely know what he's doing and yet I still fall into the old habit of trying to see things from his perspective and questioning my take on what really happened. I can therefore see how easily it could happen that he could manipulate our kids into seeing his view and I just don't want to get into that push and pull with them. Better it come from a counsellor. But, it does mean I will have to talk to the kids first about my plan which feels like I'm going behind his back. There's no other way. Originally, I wanted him to make the decision to leave then quickly proceed before he changed his mind (like in previous times). I realize that would be very hard on the kids as he would likely run to them and start his distortion campaign.

I know I will upset them but what else can I do? I can't take this crap anymore - the games, the suspicion, the anger, lack of empathy. I'm just not like that at all.

[mamachelle]

Hi dimples2,

I think waiting for him to say he will leave you if you are really suffering is not the best plan. He is likely to go back and forth and beg to have you back anyway.

Your kids are older and I'm sure your kids are aware that there are problems in the marriage.

I think letting them know he his mentally ill and letting them know you are leaving are two different conversations.

That being said, it's not going to be easy but hopefully they've got friends or other people that they know that have divorced parents. You can't control their reactions but you can try to be as validating as you can be to their experience as you get your 'oxygen mask' on.

 mamachelle