Under what circumstances would you take this person back

[Before you can make things better, you have to stop making them worse...]

OK folks - I've posted before, sorry to those who've read my story. In a nutshell: Hubby and I have 2 little kids. He has had periods of verbal abuse and control for years. I finally stood up to it last year and it escalated to him yelling at me all weekend, all night, and then he called the cops & told them that I abused our kids.  It was completely false, of course.  I got a restraining order. Dropped it for an agreement that kept him out of the house.  Now I have filed for divorce.  However, he has started to get therapy and admit EVERYTHING he did wrong. He wants another chance.  I feel pretty good taking care of the kids alone without being controlled, scared, and feeling like I have to have a tape recorder on in my house in case he lies again.

The divorce is almost final, but he is begging to come back.  That said, he still slips into dark periods at times, so I know he'd have to be in therapy forever.  Once he comes back, I really lose any upper hand and he can do what he wants.  I can keep a separation in place and keep our custody agreements etc for a while if he comes back.  But if I don't let him back after something like that, it would be more devastating.  But part of me worries that if I just give him up completely, I may be alone forever, and it is also sad that the kids only get to see their dad once in a while.  It's nice for kids to have both parents, and to do things as a family.

After months, I have come up with this scenario for him coming back:

-He has to sign a statement, notarized by our lawyers, saying I'm a good mother and he's never seen any abuse.

-He has to get weekly therapy, probably forever, and we also will go to couples counseling weekly.

-He has to allow me to do certain things with the kids, even just take them to the library on the way home from school (he didn't do that in the past)

-We have to set certain ground rules in the house - for instance, he has to allow me to use his car with the kids on weekends if he wants to stay home.  He basically used to never want to do anything on weekends and also wouldn't let me use his car.

-He has to work on the legal debt he's in now, if that means taking extra jobs or what.

He may be willing to do that because he wants to come home.  Who can blame him?  All his needs were met.  I did all the work, and he got to just hang out and criticize me.

He also lies, and he may agree to everything above and then only stick to it for a year, like many verbal abusers/BPD people etc. do.

What would you do, and do you think there would be any other things I'd put on that list?

[momtara]

OK folks - I've posted before, sorry to those who've read my story. In a nutshell: Hubby and I have 2 little kids. He has had periods of verbal abuse and control for years. I finally stood up to it last year and it escalated to him yelling at me all weekend, all night, and then he called the cops & told them that I abused our kids.  It was completely false, of course.  I got a restraining order. Dropped it for an agreement that kept him out of the house.  Now I have filed for divorce.  However, he has started to get therapy and admit EVERYTHING he did wrong. He wants another chance.  I feel pretty good taking care of the kids alone without being controlled, scared, and feeling like I have to have a tape recorder on in my house in case he lies again.

The divorce is almost final, but he is begging to come back.  That said, he still slips into dark periods at times, so I know he'd have to be in therapy forever.  Once he comes back, I really lose any upper hand and he can do what he wants.  I can keep a separation in place and keep our custody agreements etc for a while if he comes back.  But if I don't let him back after something like that, it would be more devastating.  But part of me worries that if I just give him up completely, I may be alone forever, and it is also sad that the kids only get to see their dad once in a while.  It's nice for kids to have both parents, and to do things as a family.

After months, I have come up with this scenario for him coming back:

-He has to sign a statement, notarized by our lawyers, saying I'm a good mother and he's never seen any abuse.

-He has to get weekly therapy, probably forever, and we also will go to couples counseling weekly.

-He has to allow me to do certain things with the kids, even just take them to the library on the way home from school (he didn't do that in the past)

-We have to set certain ground rules in the house - for instance, he has to allow me to use his car with the kids on weekends if he wants to stay home.  He basically used to never want to do anything on weekends and also wouldn't let me use his car.

-He has to work on the legal debt he's in now, if that means taking extra jobs or what.

He may be willing to do that because he wants to come home.  Who can blame him?  All his needs were met.  I did all the work, and he got to just hang out and criticize me.

He also lies, and he may agree to everything above and then only stick to it for a year, like many verbal abusers/BPD people etc. do.

What would you do, and do you think there would be any other things I'd put on that list?

[SadWifeofBPD]

Before cancelling the divorce, make sure he actually has DONE those things instead of just promises.   Make him DO those things for awhile before actually living together.

Do you now not have a car?  What are you using now? 

When you were together, why was it "his" car?  I would insist that if the family one has one car then the car is "jointly owned" and NOT his. 

Are you saying that you can delay the final divorce decree and just be Legally Separated while you two sort things out? 

My concern would be that he'll make the promises, but once you're living together, he'll break them rather quickly. 

"-He has to allow me to do certain things with the kids, even just take them to the library on the way home from school (he didn't do that in the past)

-We have to set certain ground rules in the house - for instance, he has to allow me to use his car with the kids on weekends if he wants to stay home.  He basically used to never want to do anything on weekends and also wouldn't let me use his car.

-He has to work on the legal debt he's in now, if that means taking extra jobs or what."

If the above things are issues that were serious problems, and he isn't "used" to doing them, then his promises might be "empty".   I've been there.  Before reconciling completely, I would see how he behaves when you begin to regularly use the car or regularly go places with the kids after school.

Sometimes pwBPD will promise something thinking that they can follow thru, but in reality they can't.

[momtara]

Just to clarify:  I haven't made the decision to have him come back.  It would be a big adjustment for me, after getting used to doing everything alone, and being able to breathe.  This is just a small possibility.  I want to understand every angle and make sure I have no regrets down the road.

So to answer your great response:   Yes, that is a big fear.  It is a lot easier for me to be away from him.  But the fact that he confessed to everything makes me think that there is a small chance we could muddle through and keep our family together forever.  But it's a small chance, I know.  

Yes, I can get a separation that's not a full divorce, and try to implement some of these things over a long, long period of time to make sure they work.  My only concern is that he may do all these things right, or some of them right, and then I still want a divorce and then he will be triply angry and dysregulated.  

And yeah, he could do these things for a long time and then stop them when he moves in.  As far as I know, there aren't legal ways to compel someone to do *anything* in a marriage, only in a divorce... .

Part of me has this fantasy that he will get better on his own over a few years and come back to us, but it seems like that's not very likely.  I am concerned that when he finds someone new, I will wish I'd worked on things more.  But maybe that's based on the ideal of what he could have been, not the reality.  He has a really good and a really bad side.  I wish I could just divorce the bad side and keep the good one!

I have to figure out if I'm really okay with finalizing the divorce.  And I have to accept that I may just be saying goodbye to him for good (except for co parenting) and saying goodbye to my dream of a lifelong marriage.  This "maybe someday we'll be together again" stuff isn't a good expectation for me to have, and he and I both are guilty of keeping it up.  

[empower-me]

momtara,

I've been there before and had the signed contract and the agreement for counseling, etc, etc, etc, and it was just a smokescreen.

The minute he came home we were back to the old dynamics.

That's why it takes so long to be able to retrain our thinking and our ability to reconnect with them in a new respectful way and vice versa.

They have such a hard time trusting in general that it just comes naturally for them to return and then to withdraw. counseling or not.

They are so sick and they need to keep making progress while living somewhere else!  (critical point!)  You can always allow him to walk the walk but with the criteria that you are not conceding to the r/s again. You want to let him know that there must be more time involved in him getting therapy.

As soon as we tell them that they regress and paint us black and then we see what we would of had in store for us.  Please think this through...    stay in separate houses if you can if you decide to do this...   speaking from bigtime personal experience... .   It just makes you take 5 steps backwards after all the progress you've made...

[momtara]

Well, that's easy enough for me.  I like having my space these days.

His dark periods usually last just a few days and then he's back to being loving.  But I've seen how far it can go.

I wish there was a crystal ball.  The best I can do is look at others' experiences and talk to professionals... . still, every situation is different.

But my own gut and my recent experience with him still tells me he has a lot of work to do. 

He can be so gentle, too.   I wish he could find a way to make that side prevail.

[thinkingthinking]

As soon as we tell them that they regress and paint us black and then we see what we would of had in store for us.  Please think this through...    stay in separate houses if you can if you decide to do this...   speaking from bigtime personal experience... .   It just makes you take 5 steps backwards after all the progress you've made...

I couldn't agree more.  After our first separation, my dBPDh promised me the world in terms of changing behavior, going to therapy, etc.  And I think he truly believed it.  However, they become so comfortable back in the place where someone has taken care of them in the past, that they quickly switch back into old ways.  Separating AGAIN after trying to make it work was probably harder on my kids than if if I would have just stayed apart in the first place.

And now, towards the end of the divorce, my dBPDh is begging and crying to come back.  It is crazy hard to hear how much he hurts because I know that for him, his emotions and fear are real. But it makes it so clear that he has NOT addressed his issues yet.

If you really have doubts, I would just encourage you to stay separated until you can tell that boundaries have really been set and acknowledged, and that therapy is well established.  Continue to feel GOOD about taking care of yourself and your kids. You are showing them what a strong mom looks like. Going back when there is still doubt often means we just find ourselves in the same frustrating situation over and over. 

Wishing you peace.  I know it's a hard place to get to!

[momtara]

It is crazy hard to hear how much he hurts because I know that for him, his emotions and fear are real.

I know.  That's the thing.  As awful as he can be, I know he doesn't fully understand why he is reacting that way.  What makes me sad is, if I really worked with him all the time, he might some day reach an understanding after a year or a few years - but it's hard to do that 100 percent of the time and sacrifice all else.  I feel bad.

BabyBree, thanks for your honesty.  I feel for you.  You have a lot of guts to share your perspective.

Our divorce becomes final pretty soon unless I postpone it.  I think I am going to let it happen, but in some ways it breaks my heart.  The good part of him is so loving and gentle and kind, and I may never find that again, even half the time.  But the other side is a side I don't want to live with right now.

For the last few months, I took comfort in knowing I could call it off if I wanted to.  Soon it becomes real.

[Ishenuts]

I would go through with the divorce. He can continue to try to prove to you he means it. There's nothing stopping you from remarrying the new and improved guy is there? Then you'll know he's serious.

[momtara]

We talked tonight, and it's clear he has far to go.  He wanted to know why - if he's in therapy - I still can't live with him.  Then we had a few circular arguments.  He understood a few months ago.  He's regressing, which is a shame.

[empower-me]

That is the nature of the beast.  The get it, then they don't, then they admit to it, then they don't remember? Or even remember the incident let alone admitting to anything.! Ahh! It's so crazy...

But it really isn't that crazy when we look at it from a 'non's' point of view.

We know that they struggle with emotional responsibility and basically live in the moment and if they can handle what their feeling then and there, well they might be able to admit to a few things and agree they have some issues to work on.  If it's too hard to feel or too big of a pill to swallow that day, they will deny, defend, regress and run in the other direction in order not to feel that pain.

So that is the nature of this illness.  We can realize that and still try to move forward with them or not.  The 1st choice means we have to lose a lot of ourselves in the process to cater to their illness and deny our own emotional needs and make up.

The latter means we realize that even though we love them and hate to see them hurting, it usually boils down to 'them or us' and that is one hard reality to deal with.

Of course we have to choose us or we will have the r/s but nothing else. Nothing that really is fulfilling on our personal lives. Not on an intimate scale or anything that feels real or safe or nurturing.  It is horribly sad but that is the stark reality unfortunately.

[momtara]

Well put.

This is such a cruel disease.

I don't think people with it understand how hurtful it is - because they are hurting so much.  What a cruel disorder it is that forces sufferers to push away the people who love them.

[SadWifeofBPD]

That is the nature of the beast.  The get it, then they don't, then they admit to it, then they don't remember? Or even remember the incident let alone admitting to anything.! Ahh! It's so crazy...

This is so true.

My sister, a T, tells me that when a pwBPD seems to "get it", they are having a "crack".  When we're talking to them and they're having a crack, it seems that they understand what they did wrong, and they'll promise to change.  THEN THE CRACK CLOSES, and it's as if the conversation never took place.  And, we're left scratching our heads.

[momtara]

Yes, I have experienced those "moments of clarity" too.  SO much that I let my guard down, and then the same nonsense would happen again.  It really is a shame. 

Although sometimes that clarity came during therapy and we had a witness, and it kept hubby a little more on track.

[blurry]

Yeah I honestly don't think a contract would work, personally, I have texts saved dating back 6 months and 3 nasty breakups ago, from my wife, promising me the world, and during the breakups, she wont even look at them or even acknowledge the fact she made those promises, plus the contract of marriage itself should be more than enough for someone to honor, if they're gonna honor a contract at all. Not sure ill ever trust my udBPDw ever again, if I even see her ever again... . how could I?

[momtara]

It brings back the old question:  Are their memories faulty, or do they really remember this stuff but can't admit to it?  Or do they remember it and suppress it?

It worries me because it could have serious implications, like if our spouse forgets to give a kid his medicine.  I know it's not the same thing, but it could be.

[empower-me]

I think that it is usually all of the above to a certain degree.  If it means living with themselves in less pain then yes, they will conveniently forget that they did A or B,

At other times they really have supressed the emotional response that came along with the action so much that they have really blocked it from their mind and memory as a way to keep the pain at bay, somewhat of a survival mechanism. A subconsious act.

And then there are those moments when they remember what they've done and right out lie about it and everything becomes so obscured and blurred that it just becomes too messy to even try and make sense of.

It will keep going on like this as long as they are so emotionally hurt and feeling so much shame from their past or feeling so empty due to not feeling like they have a true identity and they scramble from moment to moment to hold onto anything that feeds their created persona for the timebeing.

If only... . If only they could see how much they could have if they only sought help and made an effort to get better.  But most of us don't get to experience that and we have to accept it and try to move on the best that we can.

[blurry]

Yeah mine seems to have this incredible ability to erase her memory somehow, I've posted about it elsewhere in the forums before, its almost shocking, she erases her memory and I'm the one who carries massive amounts of resentment and hurt and lack of trust and guilt ect... . I know were not supposed to take it personal, but its so hard not to.