Is it possible to co parent?

[thisyoungdad]

Our divorce is heating up big time, thanks in part to the soon to be ex wife's new best friend. Anyway though so the ex has this idea that by having no contact what so ever, being rude, sending rude and provoking emails to me among other things that she is just trying to co parent successfully with me. When I sent out an email today, 2-3 sentences with a question and the response  I got was an email back telling me how angry she is with me and how she is sure I will resolve whatever it is just fine and she wants the absolute minimum contact possible (emergencies only) and nothing else. Yet she wants a collegial co parenting relationship. Just last month it she wanted a friendly co parenting relationship where we are friends still.

So I find it hard to believe she wants to co parent at all. This behavior, as well as in the last 2 months especially, completely keeping me in the dark even about pretty big things doesn't seem like someone who wants to co parent. It seems like someone who wants as much control as possible. I am learning how to let it go more and more and see that it is not about me. My email for instance was a very legitimate question about our daughters birthday coming up in 10 days. My attorney is not at all happy about the behavior I am dealing with. So my question is, can people with BPD really co parent successfully? When we met individually with our family advocate (really for the child) she really let on that she understood what I was dealing with, she was sympathetic and even joked a little about it with me. She stated on a couple of occassions that often if a party lacks the skills to problem solve or work harmoniously with someone (the other parent) that typically with a kid that can be a big motivator for them to look for help. But in some cases this isn't true, and she said in some cases if this situation doesn't motivate them than it is likely nothing else will since this is such a big thing in life. She went on to say that given that is the case it is important then that someone step up to the plate, be the leader and do what needs to be done even though the other party probably won't. She also went on to give me some very high compliments and again tell me I am doing a wonderful job in the midst of the crazy hit. It just makes me believe that as someone with 20+ years experience she knows that I am dealing with personality disorder/BPD and is warning me the best she can for what i am in for? That I may never truly get to have that co parent relationship that is best for a kid... . I am not sure so that is why I am asking other's experiences with this situation. Or are people with BPD so self centered that they simply can not get outside themselves to do what is best for the kid?

[DreamGirl]

It certainly can feel like a roller coaster when she's changing her mind so often.   

We only have control over our half of the relationship.

What do you want your coparenting relationship to look like?

What expectations to you hold of yourself?

[Matt]

What is the (legal) custody situation right now?

Is there a court order establishing parenting time?

Sometimes we talk about "co-parenting", where both parents make decisions together, even though they live apart.

Or we can talk about "parallel parenting", where each parent makes almost all the decisions while the kids are in that home.

For myself, I prefer to thinking of just "parenting":  I need to figure out what each child needs at each time, and provide it, and not assume anything about the other parent.  If their mom takes them shopping for school clothes, great, then maybe I don't have to do that.  But I can't assume she'll do that - I have to plan on providing for all their needs - financial, emotional, physical, whatever - so whatever she does is icing on the cake.

[thisyoungdad]

We don't have a legal anything through the courts for parenting time. We have an established schedule for 2 months that we made with the family advocate (the child advocate) and approved by both lawyers however it is not filed.

It is very difficult because my child is about to turn 3 and she can really tell when things are not going well. She asks when we are all going to do things together, or wants us to. Up until a couple months ago we were still doing family nights in the park etc and then they all stopped very suddenly. It has been hard on my child.

Right now we are def. "parallel parenting" and yet the soon to be ex believes and wants to "co parent" but then refuses to even interact with me. I see the challenges this provides for my little girl because when she is with me she is essentially cut off from her mom for 6 days and 5 nights and same the other way. Mom refuses contact from the other parent (again a huge shift from just 2 months ago, but so is this whole bullhit 5 night in a row thing) and so even if my daughter asks to see mom because that was a normal thing we did is allow the other parent access if we had her more than 3 nights in a row, she can't have it.

This weekend she wanted to talk to mom, and I texted her to ask her to please call her daughter. She refused. She said she didn't want contact with ME! It isn't about me, it was heartbreaking. How do deal with this? My daughters birthday is coming up, again the ex believes we are co parenting yet she wont' discuss the party with me, won't pay for any of it, won't help in anyway and in fact has our daughter on her real birthday but won't do anything. I had to plan it for the following weekend when I have her. She wants to show up when she feels like it and leave when she feels like it.

Makes me feel like I am beating my head against the wall. She tells me she wants to co parent and I am left with a very bright 3 year old asking where mommy is? Does she really not care?

Someone asked recently if she was a good mom. I simply answered I have to trust she is doing the best she can. In the back of my mind thinking that if this is the best than it is awful crappy. I didn't say that though. I would be more than happy to "parallel parent" right now but I can see how the extreme change is really wearing on our child. I feel like it is all a bunch of talk.

[Matt]

Talk to your lawyer.  It should be possible to get temporary orders set soon.  Have the details worked out between the lawyers, and filed with the court, or if the other side won't do that, just file what you think is best.  Don't feel that it has to be 50/50 - if one parent is unable to act right then it may be best if the child spends more time with the parent that is psychologically healthy.

Until there is a court order - even temporary orders - you will continue to be jerked around.

[thisyoungdad]

I did finally send a lengthy email to the family advocate who I have a good relationship with, she likes me and even straight out told me as many professionals have, that there isn't likely to be much change in her court and I am going to have to be the one to stand up and be the "leader" or the healthy one in almost all cases. It is a crappy heavy burden but the family advocate was very reassuring she felt I could do it.

So the email was basically lengthy in concerns from the past 2 months. Specific dates, times etc and I already know she believes me, including very detailed descriptions of my daughters behaviors which there is simply no way she got them anyplace else. She has a great relationship with both lawyers, and they both can see the issues with the soon to be ex. So I am hopeful that the most recent issues will be addressed. If they need more I have pages of documents situations from the past 10 months, harmful situations.

It was just too much to stand by and be "mr nice guy" and not bring up all this crazy hit that is really effecting my daughter. The family advocate already knows that we aren't "co parenting" despite what the ex says. She is smart enough that she has said we aren't. Apparently she is only fooling herself and anyone who will believe her.

I am starting to put the pressure on because I am seeing too many negative consequences to my daughter. It is hard when one parent thinks they are doing what is best for the child or so they claim but it is not very good. In fact I got an email tonight where she states how angry she is with me because she hears me saying I think she is not competent and not a good mother who can not judge what is safe for her daughter. I wanted badly to say that I do think that, but rather I used facts to re assert my position and left it up for her to decide if that is what I am saying.

Are there any good books on limiting or helping children through this kind of stuff? I am worried about the damage it will cause my kid and want to be educated.

[Matt]

"Understanding The Borderline Mother" by Christine Lawson.

[Blazing Star]

"The Power of Validation" by Hall and Cook - really good book about using validation to help support your child. I have a D4, so I know it is hard when they are becoming much more aware, yet not able to express themselves. Also The Bear Feeling Cards are a great tool for helping your child express their feelings.

Love Blazing Star

[momtara]

I was able to work a lot of things into our parenting/custody agreement based on my hubby's weird BPD reactions to things.  Like, he used to let me know last minute that he wouldn't be taking the kids.  So I put in there that he had to give me a week's notice.  He got it down to a day, but at least it's notice.  Some things, you have no control over, but there may be ways to control and regulate some of the behavior when you get to the stage of working out a legal agreement.  Just a thought.

One of the things in there is that parents have to work out the birthday party at least three weeks in advance.  Sounds silly, but they do this based on years of experience and they want such things to not be erratic for a child who likes to count on certain things.

[ForeverDad]

It was just too much to stand by and be "mr nice guy" and not bring up all this crazy... . that is really effecting my daughter. The family advocate already knows that we aren't "co parenting" despite what the ex says. She is smart enough that she has said we aren't. Apparently she is only fooling herself and anyone who will believe her.

Are there any good books on limiting or helping children through this kind of stuff? I am worried about the damage it will cause my kid and want to be educated.

Richard Warshak's Divorce Poison was recently revised and is excellent when dealing with alienation and involving the children in the blaming and blame shifting.  The introduction is especially powerful.  It states that the old advice to take the silent high road is wrong, you need to deal with the issues and conflicts, not ignore them or stay silent.

If you haven't read Divorce Poison yet, here's an excerpt from the introduction... .

Divorce Poison, by Richard Warshak, starting with page 1, paragraph 1... .   (emphasis added)

Your ex-spouse is bad-mouthing you to the children, often or constantly portraying you in a negative light, perhaps even trying to turn the children against you.  What should you do? ... .

The conventional advice is to do nothing.  Psychologists caution parents to avoid criticizing the other parent in front of the children... .   After years of consulting on cases where parents had heeded advice to be passive and had no success, I am convinced that the standard approach is wrong.  It does not work.  Often it makes things worse.  As relationships with their children progressively deteriorate, parents usually try desperately to reason with them.  Such efforts inevitably meet with failure and leave parents feeling helpless and hopeless.

This book explains why the common approaches are impotent, why doing nothing will accomplish nothing, and why relying primarily on reasoning is an unreasonable approach to the problem.  It offers a blueprint for an effective response grounded in a solid understanding of the techniques and dynamics of parents who poison their children's relationships with loved ones.

After reading this book you will be able to distinguish different types of criticism, ranging from occasional mild bad-mouthing to severe and systematic brainwashing.  You will know why and how parents manipulate their children.  You will know how to detect subtle psychological maneuvers in various guises.  You will learn how these practices - even those that seem innocuous - damage children.  And you will discover powerful strategies to preserve or rebuild loving relationships with your children... .

Divorce Poison was written primarily on behalf of children... . The failure of their parents' marriage is a chilling lesson that we cannot always count on love.  At such a vulnerable time in their lives, children especially need and deserve as much love as they can get.  Those who close off avenues of love and support detour children from their pursuit of emotional security.  And when they manipulate children into erecting the barriers themselves, when they enlist them as agents in their own deprivation, they violate their children's trust in a most cruel manner.  It is a form of kidnapping; stealing the soul.

I wrote this book to help lost souls find their way back to the hearts that await them.  I wish them a successful journey.

[slimmiller]

This weekend she wanted to talk to mom, and I texted her to ask her to please call her daughter. She refused. She said she didn't want contact with ME! It isn't about me, it was heartbreaking. How do deal with this? My daughters birthday is coming up, again the ex believes we are co parenting yet she wont' discuss the party with me, won't pay for any of it, won't help in anyway and in fact has our daughter on her real birthday but won't do anything. I had to plan it for the following weekend when I have her. She wants to show up when she feels like it and leave when she feels like it.

Makes me feel like I am beating my head against the wall. She tells me she wants to co parent and I am left with a very bright 3 year old asking where mommy is? Does she really not care?

It sucks I know but in a situation like you describe above, I have learned to use it to my advantage. What I mean by that is that while mommy is 'disfuntioning' and being a blazing BPD B^tch, I will go ahead and put on the party and make as much normal as possible for the kid. I will let her know that I am planning a little party and make sure I got my ducks in a row then also tell the child. That way it does not interfere with mommy (although at that time she tries to involeve herself just to be acrimonious) and mommy can show up if she wants. Also by telling the child, it allows the anticipation and the mother is less likely to completely sabatoge it.

It stinks but like my d7 said last week 'why does mommy have to make everything difficult'  That broke my heart but it showed me two things, keeping it as normal as possible on my end allows my kids to see that mommy is the disfunction (all too often we begin to think its us) and also that my going above and beyond with the co-parenting is working in my favor in the kids eyes. Their mom will bring about her own miseries and My goal is insulating the kids from it.

The only thing we can control is at the time we do have with our kids and the more quality time we infuse into that, the better the kids will be able to cope and in the end they as adults will look back and see who the real parent was

-slimm

[WhenWiLLitEnd]

During mediation I summed it up like this.

I want what is best for my son.

She wants the most control.

In my situation the Mothers need for control is compromising the well-being of my son, therefore I cannot co-parent.

Co-parenting IMO has less boundries and it gives them more opportunities to gain control or at least try to.

Mine might just be on her own controlling crusade, who knows if others go through this...

These people don't appear to compromise at all, so co-parenting is pretty pointless - as is mediation from my experience.

[Ishenuts]

Is your family advocate (I assume it is like a guardian ad litem?) working on a formal "parenting plan"? Read up on what to include in a good parenting plan. Make sure it is in black and white. My uNPDexH showed his true colors during the divorce process - was not the least bit ashamed about his attempts to alienate the kids, etc - and our GAL regularly insinuated to me that he was going to be a problem. BUT then, when she wrote the parenting plan she made sure that everything was 50/50 because that is "what's in the best interest of the kids". She wouldn't alter the things that I knew weren't "strong" enough. Basically threw me to the wolves. Co-parenting is HELL! I've had to go to the GAL on a few issues and her pat response is, "well, it is assumed/hoped that parents will work together for the best interests of the kids" - Weren't you there when he was calling me a lousy mother, and making up his lies, and threatening to alienate the kids? There is no successful co-parenting with a BPD/NPD because everything is a contest that they have to win!

We also have a court ordered parental coordinator to help us reach compromise on issues. hahaha We're heading to court in September because she's useless. There is no compromise with a BPD/NPD because the only person they might listen to is a judge. I have 7 more years of this, if I can survive it!

Good luck!   

[Matt]

There is no successful co-parenting with a BPD/NPD because everything is a contest that they have to win!

Just for discussion, let me give a somewhat (but not completely!) different perspective.

I do agree - from 17 years of experience - 10 married, 2 separated, and 5 divorced - that "co-parenting" probably isn't the right goal, especially to start with.

I found it much more practical to just parent the kids when they're with me, and also let them know that I'm available to help when they're not with me - not trying to fix everything at their mom's house, but giving them some option when things got really bad.  Our first Christmas - just a few days after we separated - I gave them both cell phones, so they could reach me any time, and at times they have done exactly that when they really weren't feeling safe or loved.

Nothing like "co-parenting" for sure.

But... . over time, as the dust settles, and as both parents figure out what will work for them, there are opportunities.

The key, I think, is not to count on anything from the other parent - not to assume or expect anything except they have to keep the kids safe, feed them, and treat them OK.  I can't expect my ex to meet their emotional needs, or help them with homework, or help them grow - just keep them safe when they're with her.  Pretty often, she steps up and does more - today she took them to get back-to-school clothes (four days after school started) - and that's great - takes some burden off me.

But I have to be prepared to understand and meet all the kids' needs, whatever she does.

Then, when she shows she wants to "co-parent" now and then, I can handle that however seems to work best.  Once in a while she will call me and breathlessly tell me of some problem she sees with the kids, or something she thinks would be best, and sometimes it's a good idea and I'll get behind it, or other times I might just say, "Uh, let me think about it.".  Sometimes we work together to accomplish something really good for the kids, like working out our schedules so they can do something, or splitting the cost of an unexpected school project.

So I see "co-parenting" as something you can't aim for all the time, and certainly not right after the separation, but you can maybe achieve from time to time, after the dust has settled, and tempers are lower.  Still minimizing contact, and keeping it as simple as possible, so there's little need to meet face-to-face or spend a lot of time on the phone - e-mail is still best.  Not a consistent approach, just something to be open to once in a while, when the other party suggests it... .

[MexaHime]

There is no successful co-parenting with a BPD/NPD because everything is a contest that they have to win!

Just for discussion, let me give a somewhat (but not completely!) different perspective.

I do agree - from 17 years of experience - 10 married, 2 separated, and 5 divorced - that "co-parenting" probably isn't the right goal, especially to start with.

I found it much more practical to just parent the kids when they're with me, and also let them know that I'm available to help when they're not with me - not trying to fix everything at their mom's house, but giving them some option when things got really bad.  Our first Christmas - just a few days after we separated - I gave them both cell phones, so they could reach me any time, and at times they have done exactly that when they really weren't feeling safe or loved.

Nothing like "co-parenting" for sure.

But... . over time, as the dust settles, and as both parents figure out what will work for them, there are opportunities.

The key, I think, is not to count on anything from the other parent - not to assume or expect anything except they have to keep the kids safe, feed them, and treat them OK.  I can't expect my ex to meet their emotional needs, or help them with homework, or help them grow - just keep them safe when they're with her.  Pretty often, she steps up and does more - today she took them to get back-to-school clothes (four days after school started) - and that's great - takes some burden off me.

But I have to be prepared to understand and meet all the kids' needs, whatever she does.

Then, when she shows she wants to "co-parent" now and then, I can handle that however seems to work best.  Once in a while she will call me and breathlessly tell me of some problem she sees with the kids, or something she thinks would be best, and sometimes it's a good idea and I'll get behind it, or other times I might just say, "Uh, let me think about it.".  Sometimes we work together to accomplish something really good for the kids, like working out our schedules so they can do something, or splitting the cost of an unexpected school project.

So I see "co-parenting" as something you can't aim for all the time, and certainly not right after the separation, but you can maybe achieve from time to time, after the dust has settled, and tempers are lower.  Still minimizing contact, and keeping it as simple as possible, so there's little need to meet face-to-face or spend a lot of time on the phone - e-mail is still best.  Not a consistent approach, just something to be open to once in a while, when the other party suggests it... . 

wow i really wanted to hear this. my ex left me for another woman who had two kids and she was pregnant within the 6 months he kicked me out and moved them in. he was in adn out of our sons life i never told him "no you can not see our son" (actually i would be calling asking him "when you coming?) about a year and a half of all that... .things started changing. he's recently been trying to "spend as much time as possible" with our son.  he stated this in June. so he had him for almost two whole months. then my son came back in Aug, because he's only five and missed being home. then he's been calling him every other day since our last tiff. which was around the first week of school.  he's been asking me to impliment his parenting skills and tactics on our son. to which as of last night i about had it, and wanted to so badly to tell him, "if you wanted to have such a strong say so in the way your son was raised, maybe you should have stayed" but i didnt, i just kindly told him, i did not believe in those parenting techniques and will teach him some of the values he believes in, (because i too believed in those few)  but in my own way. i was very very surprised when he told me "thats ok, you'll do great" because he used to tell me "you are an unfit parent! you are unstable! he needs to live with me where its safe!" and i'm like uhhh... .i dont drink, i dont even smoke cigarettes. i'm asleep most weekends by 11pm... .my son gets a bedtime story almost every night, tucked in adn kisses... .i work 8-4 ... .where is he unsafE? but whatever. thats why i was so surprised and very leery of him being so "kind" i dont get it. Let me point out he also once told me that "it was [the woman he left me for and currently is in a relationship with] who wouldnt let me see our son" well she hates me, but im not sure why, ... .