Goint to mediation 1st time. My plans and advice

[unortel]

Mediation is this Wednesday. My plan is to give her 65-70% of equities ( I did make a bad investment, trying to make right) and not touch her retirement accounts.

My purpose is for negotiating position. She is going to try to ask for waaay more than I am offering.  Then I can go back to 50/50 in $'s to make my point.

My children (d16 s14) state she  is crazy but are afraid to stay with me more than 50% of the time because there will be a cost to them mentally.

I would like to ask 51% because I work closer to home and do more of the driving and Dr appointments, with the end goal making it easier for kids to switch to more time with me in the future.

Previously she told me of BPD diagnosis but that has been forgotten . I know that she won't be able to hold it together if things don't go her way, so I expect a blow up of some sort in mediation.

My wonderful kids don't want to hurt their mom, daughter said " it is just unfair like a mentally challenged kid can't help himself". 

I know my kids will do better with more time with me, there are no eggs shells or thin ice at my home. I know hearsay can't be brought into this . So how do you bring in mental stuff for custody?  She is high functioning mostly behavior issues.

I expect her project her mental health issues on me to paint me black, just recently stating that I am narcissist. I am thinking at that time if that is the case , certainly she would agree to an evaluation for both.

Thanks for any pointers.

[catnap]

General advice is to offer way less than you are actually willing to give so she feels she has a "win" when you offer more.  Mental illness can be brought in by behavioral patterns that show she has stability issues.  You do have wonderful children and perhaps a good therapist to help them learn the tools needed to set boundaries with their mother.  Just because she is mentally ill does not give her a free pass.

There are other members here that have had experience with mediation that I am sure will post. 

[hell0kitty]

Yeah, we JUST did mediation, and we had to offer things we would like, but didn't care if we gave up, like certain holidays etc, so she felt like she was winning by saying no to those things. They were throwaway items.  In the end we got everything we actually wanted plus a couple of bonus things we were shocked she did not say no to, but she did say no to the majority of the throwaway items.

[ForeverDad]

I think you're positioning yourself to give your best offer first and then back off when she demands even more?  I guess it's a conditional offer, one that ends if not accepted promptly? 

My concern is that someone at some point will want you to pull that original offer out and sweeten it.  I'm not comfortable with you putting forward your best offer up front.  She and perhaps her lawyer too will see it as the starting point, not the ending point.

Beware of being too fair.  She has her lawyer, mediator and even the judge who will fall all over themselves to protect the victim/target.  She is protected 6 ways to Friday, you need to protect yourself.  Being too fair, too nice, too whatever will put you at risk of self-sabotage.

Also, who would be Residential Parent for School Purposes?  In my case, on Trial Morning, when after two years my ex said she was finally ready to settle, not being able to delay any longer, both my lawyer and hers insisted RP didn't mean anything but I held out for that.  I said either I'm RP or we'll go in and start the trial and see what the judge decides.  It worked and I walked out with a settlement as RP in Shared Parenting.  Our son was in kindergarten, I applied to the school for Open Enrollment so that he could finish out the school year there.  It was rejected about 6 weeks later, with only about 6 weeks left of the school year, because she kept causing scenes at exchange time.  So I proved the lawyers wrong, RP did make a difference.

That was back in 2008.  In 2011 I got custody too.  Guess what?  In 2012 I filed a motion for majority time and her response was to file for her to become the Residential Parent, I guess undoing the past 5-plus years.  Some days it seems... .It. Never. Ends.

[Matt]

Before making any $ offer, find out what the law (and custom) says where you live.

For example, where I live, the courts usually split up "net assets" - that is, assets minus debts.  So if you add up all the assets accumulated during the marriage (not those you had when you got married), and subtract the debts, that's the amount that should be split.

It's not always so easy, like if most of the value is in the house - you can't cut the house in half.  But most assets, including a house, can be sold, and the money divided.

If it works similarly where you live, keep it simple - just write down all the assets and debts, and figure out the most practical way to split them.  Do not offer her any more than half, or that will be her starting point to demand more.  If you offer too much, and then back off, you'll be accused of playing games, or not bargaining in good faith.  Make a sensible offer, and stop - don't "counter your own offer" - let her make an offer she thinks is more fair, but if it's not more fair, reject it and stick with yours.

With regard to custody, don't be in a hurry to offer anything or accept anything.  Focus on getting information out into the open.  For example, ask if she has been diagnosed with any psychological disorder, and if she says yes, ask for documentation, or subpoena it if you have to.  If she says no, and you think she is lying, talk to your lawyer about deposing her - a way to put her under oath and find out the truth.  It can be hard to find this information but your lawyer should know what you can do to get it.

Also, look for information about how her diagnosis is likely to affect the kids long-term.  Kids raised by a parent with an untreated psych disorder are at higher risk for substance abuse, depression, eating disorders, etc. - find scholarly research that is relevant and use it to show that it's not in the kids' interest to be with her much.

Your idea about psych evals for both may be a good one - that's what I did.  Your lawyer will know how to do it where you live, but here's what worked for me:

I filed a motion asking for a Custody Evaluator to be appointed, and he administered psych evals for both parents.  The other side opposed it and said there was no reason.  I said that our marriage counselor had told me she believed my wife had BPD;  the other side said I was lying.  So we got the MC on the phone with both lawyers - I gave my lawyer my notes from the MC session, and she read them to the MC, who said, "That is correct."  I wasn't lying, my wife was.

So the other side agreed to the psych evals (and my wife's lawyer now knew her client was a liar).  My psych eval came out OK - some issues but I was dealing with those.  My wife's said "multiple psychological disorders", and also that she had "presented falsely" (that is, lied) while taking the psych eval.

Key point:  Make sure your motion specifies objective psych evals, not just interviews.  Ours were the MMPI-2, which worked well.  I don't know if there are other tests which are just as good, or are better accepted by the court where you live - your lawyer should know that.

People with personality disorders can sometimes fool even experienced professionals, and then your suggestion that the other party may have a psych disorder will make you look bad.  And people with one psych disorder often have more than one, which makes diagnosis complicated.  But the MMPI-2 is designed to enable a diagnosis, even if there is more than one psych disorder, and even if the person tries to fool it, as my wife did.  So make sure you are  asking for objective testing, not just someone's subjective perceptions.

[livednlearned]

Mediation is this Wednesday. My plan is to give her 65-70% of equities ( I did make a bad investment, trying to make right) and not touch her retirement accounts.

Excellent advice from others here! I would just add that, like FD pointed out, these kinds of divorces tend to go on and on and on and on. You need money for that. Even if it seems easy, or trivial, or is something that will cost her money, time, and effort, there's a good chance you will end up back in court enforcing whatever you both agree to. So negotiate accordingly.

So don't give her more than the law states. It won't make a difference. She is still going to cause pain and suffering, no matter what you do. Give them everything, they will make everyone suffer. Give them nothing, they will make everyone suffer. Give them everything and nothing, they will make everyone suffer. It's the disorder.

Better to just focus on what you are entitled to by law, and then be smart about negotiating so that she feels like she's winning so you can get your agreement signed.

The key is to let her feel like winning so you can sign the darn thing. Getting her to do what she agreed to do is a whole other bunch of nonsense.

[Matt]

Mediation is this Wednesday. My plan is to give her 65-70% of equities ( I did make a bad investment, trying to make right) and not touch her retirement accounts.

I would just add that, like FD pointed out, these kinds of divorces tend to go on and on and on and on. You need money for that.

Yes... .and I think sometimes the person with the disorder seems to enjoy the ongoing conflict, while the other person - us here - doesn't.  So our position gets weaker and weaker - we'll do almost anything to get it over with... .

Here's what I learned - how to make and end date - how it works where I live:

You can file a motion asking the court to set a trial date - the date of the trial if there is no settlement.  Most cases settle without a trial, but the trial date, once it's set, establishes an end to the process.

We filed in December, asking for a trial date in February.  My wife's attorney responded, asking for a much later date - August.  The court decided on July.  Later, my wife's attorney asked for a delay, but I opposed that - I had told my attorney not to agree to any delay.  (Sometimes lawyers agree to things out of courtesy to the other attorney.)  So the trial stayed scheduled for July - much later than I would have preferred, but at least it was set.

Sure enough, we made no progress toward a settlement til just a few days before the trial date.  That's when we got the Custody Evaluator's report - the last key information needed.  With the trial coming up, the other side was finally ready to bargain in good faith, and we settled the day before the trial.

I'm sure that if the trial had been schedule a month later, we would have settled a month later.  If there was no set trial date, we might not have settled it yet!

[Aussie0zborn]

Mine has made an offer that she takes everything and I take nothing. Her new lawyer has suggested telephone mediation which we have agreed to.

I can't see any basis for negotiation and I know that we will have to ask the court to decide - something  I knew all along but we have to go through the mediation process just to show that we are genuine. What a waste of time this is going to be.

[livednlearned]

My wonderful kids don't want to hurt their mom, daughter said " it is just unfair like a mentally challenged kid can't help himself". 

I know my kids will do better with more time with me, there are no eggs shells or thin ice at my home. I know hearsay can't be brought into this . So how do you bring in mental stuff for custody?  She is high functioning mostly behavior issues.

Remember that you are not just helping me them deal with the current situation, you are modeling for them how to deal with difficult people for the rest of their lives. Lots of us grew up with difficult people, then married difficult people. They're old enough now that they can make decisions, so help them with those decisions. Not about "does this hurt mom" but about "is this healthy for me." My parents trained me to tolerate abuse and define my worth by taking care of others. That's a script that doesn't tend to play out well.

Can you and your kids go to family counseling together? It could save them a life of pain to get this stuff sorted out now.

[trappeddad]

Aussie,

is there a way to avoid mediation to trim legal costs?   i have a similar situation and see mediation as a waste of $$.     i guess its good to say you tried

[unortel]

"you are modeling for them how to deal with difficult people for the rest of their lives. Lots of us grew up with difficult people, then married difficult people. They're old enough now that they can make decisions, so help them with those decisions. Not about "does this hurt mom" but about "is this healthy for me."

Fabulous advice!  My goal is currently to give kids skills to be healthy young adults and not repeat what they have seen.

Got through mediation, signed and agreed to. I am happy with results.  Paid a  little more than I wanted but being happy is a fantastic reward in itself. I will make more money than I gave up in short order because I am so relieved and happy that I can move on with my life.

[livednlearned]

"you are modeling for them how to deal with difficult people for the rest of their lives. Lots of us grew up with difficult people, then married difficult people. They're old enough now that they can make decisions, so help them with those decisions. Not about "does this hurt mom" but about "is this healthy for me."

Fabulous advice!  My goal is currently to give kids skills to be healthy young adults and not repeat what they have seen.

Got through mediation, signed and agreed to. I am happy with results.  Paid a  little more than I wanted but being happy is a fantastic reward in itself. I will make more money than I gave up in short order because I am so relieved and happy that I can move on with my life.

That's great! Especially the part about you being happy and moving on with your life. Your kids will have a safe place where they can decompress.

[Aussie0zborn]

Aussie, is there a way to avoid mediation to trim legal costs?   i have a similar situation and see mediation as a waste of $$.  i guess its good to say you tried

We're doing telephone mediation and it will probably be a minor cost compared to everything else. Mediation is necessary to show the court your good faith and while my offer will be genuine and sensible I can't see she is going to accept it owing to her BPD and her warped sense of entitlement.

Once you're painted black I cant see that there can be any logical communication that would result in a fair and equitable agreement through mediation. Luckily, we have courts that can solve that issue.