sibling rivalry

[six]

I have posted about this before, but wondering if anyone has any insight to share with me

My BPDs26 has put us thru a lot of aggravation over the past 10 years.  he recently moved out and seems to be doing relatively well.  he lives nearby and we see him once or twice per week.  he comes over to raid the refrigerator.  he has also recently begun a relationship with a young woman which he seems to be happy about.

before he moved out, I was constantly telling him that he needed to get his own place.  I put up some boundaries this summer about what I would be willing to tolerate if he were in the house.  he sort of accepted them, but not fully.  we have had a longstanding issue in our relationship where he refuses to accept that my Dh and I have authority over what goes on in our home.  Bec we are such abusers, in his mind, he believes that he has the right to set policy in our home because we lost that right and privilege (?)  I have often asked him why he wants to live here if we are such abusers, but he never has an answer for that.  many times over the past 5 years we have considered taking out a restraining order against him, but we have nevr actually followed thru with that, and I am happy that we managed to get to this point without having to involve the authorities.

here is the question.  he cannot understand why his 24year old sister should be allowed to live in the house if he is not allowed to.  it is true that we treat them differently, but there is a reason for that which is based on who each of them interacts with the family.  yet he will not accept that there is any difference between the two of them.  I would like her to move out also because she can afford it, but I don't feel the same urgency about her moving out because she is not disruptive like he is.  I am wondering how this should be handled.  he does not accept that there is any difference between his behavior and hers (?).  we never mention the word BPD to him even though a psychiatrist told him he had it when he was 18.  .  any ideas?

Our objective is to better understand the struggles our child faces and to learn the skills to improve our relationship and provide a supportive environment and also improve on our own emotional responses, attitudes and effectiveness as a family leaders

[Kate4queen]

One of the things that learning to deal better with my BPD son (22) taught me was that occasionally I overcompensated with his brothers (one older 24 and one younger 20) because I felt so bad about how scarred they were from living with BPD sibling.

(and my son also thinks we are bad parents and questioned our authority in our own home so I totally get that)

Things we did to deal with this this that worked for us.

1. Politely refusing to discuss our parental choices with our BPD son. putting phone down, cutting off contact, changing the subject whatever worked.

2. Looking at whether we were actually enabling our other sons as well-conclusion in some areas we were definitely over compensating and making them just as dependent on us as their brother. We helped 24 year old move out but wouldn't pay all his rent, car insurance etc etc. We had to help him become independent of us as well. Also allowed #3 son to move in with #2-not what we wanted at all but has been very good for him. He's actually maturing and is being far nicer to me and my dh now he's living with his BPD brother.

3. constantly reiterating to son #2 that his behaviors were the reason why we couldn't live in the same house and that we didn't have the same issues with his brothers. (We never get into the specifics of the condition or try and blame him, just the behavior resulting from it.)

Not sure if this helps much, but it worked for us.

[Verbena]

This is a tough one.  As a teacher, I never tried to treat all students the same.  I just tried to treat them all fairly.  All kids are different, have different needs, and respond differently.  It's not easy in a classroom to do that, and it's not easy at home with your own children either. 

My son (almost 24) never gave us any trouble because, in his words, "we had our hands full" with his sister.  DD has gotten most of our attention for years, and I have felt guilty about that.  I feel like it's my son's turn now.  He has met someone in China at the school where he is teaching and seems very happy.  He's even talking about bringing her here next summer.  I urged him to let his sister know what was going on in his life because I didn't want an issue over me telling her instead of him.  He finally e-mailed her over the weekend. She texted me that he had contacted her and that she responded to him.  I asked her what  her brother had to say, and she did not respond at all.  I haven't heard from her since.  I would like to think she could just be happy for him, but she will more than likely make it all about her because that's just what she does. 

six, I completely understand your problem.  I would not attempt to explain to your son that his behavior is different from his sister's.  As you said, he doesn't recognize that there is a difference, and you won't make him see that if he doesn't want to.  I would maybe just tell him that you and your husband are more concerned with what is best for your children, not whether it's the same. 

constantly reiterating to son #2 that his behaviors were the reason why we couldn't live in the same house and that we didn't have the same issues with his brothers. (We never get into the specifics of the condition or try and blame him, just the behavior resulting from it.)

Not sure if this helps much, but it worked for us.[/font][/font]

Kate4queen's advice above seems excellent. 

[petridish]

That doesn't sound like sibling rivalry unless I'm missing something. It sounds like you are treating your children differently because they're different people and I agree with others that you don't need to be really explicit with this. My parents (inc. uBPD mother) did so as well in ways that often seemed unfair to their kids. We were able to move through this and I, at least tried very hard to keep the focus on my frustration at unfair treatment on those doing the unfair treating, rather than the one receiving the benefit.

IF this is creating strife between your children, rather than between yourself and one of your children, and this is distressing towards you, I would suggest highlighting that it's YOUR choice, not hers. For her to take advantage of extra privileges (in his mind) might be something he'd do given the option, but his anger/hurt shouldn't be directed at her (then again, I know that my uBPD mother has called me up to yell at me for things other siblings said to her that hurt her and accused me of not listening when I tried to say I didn't agree with them, so I'm not sure how that would work).

If you want to smooth things over overall, since your son is older than your daughter, set the age at which you had him out as the age at which you would like to have her move out (you say she can handle it financially). I would err on the side of being extra explicitly fair and consistent (this is a tactic I've tried with middling success with my mother).

Caveat: I have no children yet and it's my mother who's uBPD.

[six]

thanks for the responses.

I think your advice, K4Q, about not discussing my parenting of other kids with him is spot on.  I have fallen into that trap too many times.  I also agree with what you said that I have made my DD24 too dependent on us bec of my guilt over everything she has suffered from growing up in our house.  I think it is time for me to change that too.  as usual your comments are really helpful to me

Verbena, I like what you said about not treating all kids the same, but treating them all fairly.  The problem is that BPDs26 has more or less locked on to his sister as the reason that he feels unloved by me.  he thinks that I always took her side of the arguments and protected her (true and I don't completely regret it). I am trying to make a change for all of our benefits of not protecting her any more and letting her stand on her own two feet.  but at the moment, she is living at home and I don't feel the need to make her move out.

Petri, I hear what you are saying, but it might be somewhat different bec I am talking about siblings not a parent child relationship.  thanks for responding!

[Reality]

six:

Maybe your son is speaking the truth.  Just because your dd's behavior meshes with yours doesn't make your son's behavior qualitatively worse.  Your son with BPD is highly sensitive.  Given his emotional pain, as he intuits people's real feelings more accurately,  his behavior is going to be more outrageous and less conventional and more problematic in our modern politically correct, success world, whatever that all means. 

There is always a kernel of truth. 

Validate feelings.  Those living on the mountaintop, the visionaries, are necessarily a pain.  They just don't care if the potatoes are harvested.  Their job is to fix the world, to speak the truth even though no-one is listening. 

Those who suffer see more.  Whether we like it or not.  They are also a royal pain.  But sweet.

Musings,

Reality

[six]

Just because your dd's behavior meshes with yours doesn't make your son's behavior qualitatively worse. 

Reality, you know how much I love to agree with you, but I don't believe that this statement  is true.  My sons behavior IS qualitatively worse.  The fact that it comes from his high degree of sensitivity might explain why he does it, but it does not take away the fact that he rages and screams at me which is why I needed him to move out.  my dd has plenty of her own issues but she has made the decision to be socially appropriate so that I am able to live in peace with her.  I do believe that my sons behavior is a decision.  I know that he is able to modulate his behavior if he chooses to. I think that part of his job in this world is to decide to do that.  if I keep sending the message that he is permitted to act inappropriately because he is highly sensitive, how will he ever learn that when he makes an inappropriate choice people don't want to be around him? also what kind of message would I be sending to other highly sensitive people who live in my house but who I am trying to teach that they cannot always give vent to their outrageous behavior

[Verbena]

Just because your dd's behavior meshes with yours doesn't make your son's behavior qualitatively worse. 

Reality, you know how much I love to agree with you, but I don't believe that this statement  is true.  My sons behavior IS qualitatively worse.  The fact that it comes from his high degree of sensitivity might explain why he does it, but it does not take away the fact that he rages and screams at me which is why I needed him to move out.  my dd has plenty of her own issues but she has made the decision to be socially appropriate so that I am able to live in peace with her.  I do believe that my sons behavior is a decision.  I know that he is able to modulate his behavior if he chooses to. I think that part of his job in this world is to decide to do that.  if I keep sending the message that he is permitted to act inappropriately because he is highly sensitive, how will he ever learn that when he makes an inappropriate choice people don't want to be around him? also what kind of message would I be sending to other highly sensitive people who live in my house but who I am trying to teach that they cannot always give vent to their outrageous behavior

Amen to every word of this. 

[Reality]

Hi six:

I was doing a radical acceptance piece... .a mind-setting.  Honestly, I think pwBPD are much kinder and noble in many ways, which offsets their difficulty. 

Of course, there need to be firm boundaries when the raging erupts etc etc.

I was at a mental health talk the other evening and a highly-respected doctor pointed out how destructive behavior was a signal of severe emotional distress.  I have been struck for days by this fact.  I am in that groove right now. 

The radical acceptance piece dances with the boundaries somehow. 

Reality

[griz]

Reality:  Thank you and although some may disagree I too believe they are much kinder and noble in many ways.  I compare their behavior to our own when you are trying to explain something to someone and they just aren't getting it.  What do we do, we get frustrated, angry and our volume usually goes up.  Think of the person with BPD as someone who has such highly sensitive feelings and emotions.  It is very frustrating for us to understand their heightened emotions and equally frustrating for them because they must feel like they are not being heard.  Now I'm not advocating for rages here but I get it and I believe understand is the first step.  I have two daughters.  One with BPD and one non-BPD.  I cannot react or deal with their emotions the same way.  If non-BPD is having a difficult time with something I think is trivial I can say to her, "You are being unreasonable and blowing things out of proportion, you need to get a grip on whatever it is" if DD is having a difficult time with something that I feel is trivial I need to validate her feelings much more and help her work through it. Non-BPD has the tools to work through it herself... DD does not.  Non-BPD emotions, when in emotional mind may be at a 10, when DD is in emotional mind is at a 1000.   

Griz

[Rapt Reader]

It is very frustrating for us to understand their heightened emotions and equally frustrating for them because they must feel like they are not being heard... .

Non-BPD emotions, when in emotional mind may be at a 10, when DD is in emotional mind is at a 1000.  

Griz

I think that Griz has it right; people with BPD can't really control their emotions--they feel what they feel, and we can't tell them they can't feel that way. What they can do (with treatment, training or insights into how their own minds work) is control their reactions when they get dysregulated. And, that's where we can come in, using the tools and techniques on this site and in all the books we read, and treat them with support, love, understanding and validation. Not only do those things change the way they react to us, but eventually it can help them learn how to react in a better way with others, if they are learning. At least that's what I'm seeing in my own circle of loved ones.

Our objective is to better understand the struggles our child faces and to learn the skills to improve our relationship and provide a supportive environment and also improve on our own emotional responses, attitudes and effectiveness as a family leaders

[Reality]

Neuroscience explains why this learning happens.  It not so much a matter of learning to control emotions, but rather learning to validate one's own emotions.  When people around them model the validation day by day, neural connections are established in the brain, gradually forming new habits for the pwBPD.  The more calm the environment, as John Gunderson emphasizes, the less reactivity from others, the better the model. 

As you all know, once the emotional arousal decreases, cognition is heightened and discussions and conversation can happen.

You can also bet that pwBPD perceive other people's unconscious feelings, attitudes and thoughts because of their high sensitivity.  Their lives are very rich and yet, with bad luck in an invalidating environment, their lives can be very difficult indeed.

Boundaries are key, as is compassion and true kindness. 

Reality

[griz]

Yes, yes, yes Reality... .learning to validate one's own emotions.  I am not BPD but practicing the skills learned in DBT I have learned to validate my own emotions, which is something that I never did.  If I was angry at someone or hurt I would internalize that emotion instead of learning how to deal with it.  I often turned being angry at someone into either my fault instead of dealing with the problem/emotion or passive agressive behavior.  Using my skills and validating my feelings I can now accept that it is sometimes justified to be angry with someone and use my skills to deal with the problem.

I have also learned that when DD is having a difficult time to not allow myself to go into a virtual tailspin.  I can stop and quiet myself and give myself permission to be sad or angry.  Once I do that cognition is heightened.  I stop dealing in emotional mind and can see things more clearly... .it's not the end of the world it is just a bad day.

Reality... .you are so wise.

Griz

[Reality]

Quoting Dr Robert F. Fischer, MD, AssIstant Clinical Professor of Psychiatry, UCLA School of Medicine, in the new BPD MAGAZINE article 'BPD Happens To Men, Too!':

As a matter of fact, the young men that I have seen are extremely sensitive and gifted, many in the arts, a very different picture from someone who is frightening and seems to operate from a totally self centred and non-empathic point of view.  

He does qualify his observations to be clinically honest, as he indicates

These men do respond to treatment.  Clearly, the group that I see is selected because of the setting in which I work and therefore my data is statistically biased.  

Nonetheless, that is my point I was attempting to articulate above.

Reality