Just a thought

[Before you can make things better, you have to stop making them worse...]

I was talking on the phone to a friend of mine the other night, and the conversation turned to the subject of therapy for BPD.  She is actually from my emotional abuse support group, before I learned that my ex-g/f is uBPD, and now that I've learned all of this, now feels that her ex-h is uBPD also.

We have both seen the articles here and there about meds and psychological therapies like DBT and EMDR.  And then she asked me THE question: knowing that BPD can't be cured (she compared it to alcoholism), and my uBPDex-g/f actually accepted her problem and got intensive therapy, would I take her back?  So what the conversation evolved into was knowing what I know now, and if my ex-g/f sought treatment and came out of it with just 10% of her past BPD behaviors, would I be willing to accept that much to renew the r/s?

Yes, it's an arbitrary value, but it's just for the sake of discussion and argument.

So now I'm asking the same of you folks.  Could you accept 10% of your ex's or soon-to-be-ex's behaviors, after all of your previous experiences with them, and consider taking them back?

[frag1911]

I was talking on the phone to a friend of mine the other night, and the conversation turned to the subject of therapy for BPD.  She is actually from my emotional abuse support group, before I learned that my ex-g/f is uBPD, and now that I've learned all of this, now feels that her ex-h is uBPD also.

We have both seen the articles here and there about meds and psychological therapies like DBT and EMDR.  And then she asked me THE question: knowing that BPD can't be cured (she compared it to alcoholism), and my uBPDex-g/f actually accepted her problem and got intensive therapy, would I take her back?  So what the conversation evolved into was knowing what I know now, and if my ex-g/f sought treatment and came out of it with just 10% of her past BPD behaviors, would I be willing to accept that much to renew the r/s?

Yes, it's an arbitrary value, but it's just for the sake of discussion and argument.

So now I'm asking the same of you folks.  Could you accept 10% of your ex's or soon-to-be-ex's behaviors, after all of your previous experiences with them, and consider taking them back?

[Ironmanrises]

Good question, Frag. 10% of past behaviors, does that include being devalued/discarded?

[Perfidy]

Frag... Hi... Ummm... No. Here's why. Trust... Gone. Honesty... .Gone. Respect... .Gone. By the time my ex could make herself healthy enough to gain some type of atonement for her behaviour with me I won't even remember her. I will have passed on from old age. Why put myself through all the insanity of learning to trust, honor, and respect someone that has NEVER shown me this in return. For me it was clearly a mistake in the first place. She was never compatible with me in the first place so been there done that. I want to move forward not backward. That's my story.

[frag1911]

Perfidy, I totally understand, and I'm certainly not trying to say that anyone or someone or everyone should reconsider.  It's a given that a lot of us just won't be put in that place again.

Ironman, it's an open question... .fill in your own blanks! 

[Ironmanrises]

Now that I rethought that question, it will have to be a no. I would still be accepting 10% devaluation which still means I am accepting 10% emotional abuse. After 2 rounds of that, no more. I had enough of that. I would still be accepting a 1 in 10 chance that I will be discarded again. After 2 discards, no more. I cannot allow another discard. Next one would probably kill me. I am still reeling from this. The fact that I even contemplated that question, means I still have issues. And that is not good. My worth needs to dictate that I accept 0% emotional abuse from any romantic person.

[fromheeltoheal]

I wouldn't want to date someone who was newly sober, recovery from alcoholism takes years and years, so running with that, my borderline would need to enter long term therapy and then, several years down the road, she'd have an uphill battle proving to me that she was worth the risk; don't see it happening.

And would I consider a relationship with a drunk who only got drunk once every 10 days?  Probably not, but if she could mark it on the calendar I could just leave town for a day.  A scheduled borderline?  Ha!

[Perfidy]

I understand frag... The way I read it was you were asking not saying. I get it.

[Conundrum]

If my ex got off the meth, heroin, booze and pot, I'd live with her again . I'm not interested in her being cured from BPD. I'm interested in her trusting her BPD with me. And being straight enough to appreciate and value that.

[fromheeltoheal]

If my ex got off the meth, heroin, booze and pot, I'd live with her again . I'm not interested in her being cured from BPD. I'm interested in her trusting her BPD with me. And being straight enough to appreciate and value that.

Kudos Conundrum.  Your ability to detach and stay in it, existentially it seems, is admirable; I was fresh out of tolerance, never to go back.  I know there's a certain allure to accepting a borderline as-is and not expecting the trappings of a 'normal' relationship, but how did you deal with the abuse?  Or was there any?

Did your borderline trust you?  In the end we weren't trusting each other on anything, so I couldn't imagine her trusting her disorder with me, even if she knew she had it.  Curious on your take, per usual.

[Conundrum]

FHTH, it's like Anna Karenina. "Happy families are all alike; every unhappy family is unhappy in its own way." We were happy for over 6 years--and she's a classic illustration of a female with BPD--textbook.

How? Sobriety and the age difference was instrumental. A mentor-student relationship. For the first time she was experiencing a new way and saw tangible results. Idealization was addressed from the initiation. Coping tools were discussed long before the BPD diagnosis. From rage and immaturity, a dialogue was born--no doubt eccentric-where black and white, became inverted, then converted, then something functional. There was synthesis.

If you really want to know. I always confronted her disordered thoughts. Always. Every single time. Without shaming, but with conviction. We established our own weird meeting of the minds. The principle that we adhered to was, never go to sleep angry with each other. Apologies were made--as much as possible sooner than later. I helped keep her BPD in check. She was my SO, lover, friend but also my student. It held for a long time. Yes there was trust. She's still my friend... .sort of. There's too much drugs though... .now.  

[fromheeltoheal]

FHTH, it's like Anna Karenina. "Happy families are all alike; every unhappy family is unhappy in its own way." We were happy for over 6 years--and she's a classic illustration of a female with BPD--textbook.

How? Sobriety and the age difference was instrumental. A mentor-student relationship. For the first time she was experiencing a new way and saw tangible results. Idealization was addressed from the initiation. Coping tools were discussed long before the BPD diagnosis. From rage and immaturity, a dialogue was born--no doubt eccentric-where black and white, became inverted, then converted, then something functional. There was synthesis.

If you really want to know. I always confronted her disordered thoughts. Always. Every single time. Without shaming, but with conviction. We established our own weird meeting of the minds. The principle that we adhered to was, never go to sleep angry with each other. Apologies were made--as much as possible sooner than later. I helped keep her BPD in check. She was my SO, lover, friend but also my student. It held for a long time. Yes there was trust. She's still my friend... .sort of. There's too much drugs though... .now.  

Thanks, and interesting.  I was close in chronological age with mine and was expecting an equal partner in the beginning, silly me; I think I could have held my own better if she was significantly younger.  She has many, many relationships under her belt, is very good at the game, and although I called her on all her crap too, it was met with rage, usually, and then 5 comebacks to every one of mine, like she stockpiled them for use as needed.  I got lost.

Mine didn't use substances and was a reasonably responsible parent of her own kids.  Drugs and alcohol are the solution, not the problem, at first anyway, and mine used food and a lot of attachments to soothe.  I know from my own experience that the solution can become the problem, and you never know, hope yours cleans up.  Thanks for the insight.

[frag1911]

As I said when I asked, knowing what I know now and my BPDex might make such improvements, I looked at the question from a separate perspective.

I would consider that the ex had learned some valuable lessons and coping skills, and had become aware of what her behavior had been and had learned to deal with it much better.  My place would be that I now had knowledge and my own coping skills.  So my friend and I talked and I said that yes, 10% would be much more tolerable and manageable than what had gone on previously.  Neither one of us had been educated and aware before, so nothing was ever accomplished except grief. 

And to answer any wondering, no, I'm not even considering going back to her.  She's mentioned "joining" a BPD group and now being aware of her behavior, but she is constantly "liking" snotty "men are cheaters" type quotes and ecards, and then sends me loving pictures and quotes to me directly.  Too much two-faced garbage for me

[RecycledNoMore]

No

Too much water under that bridge.

[Pretty Woman]

Risk.  I just think taking someone back that has treated me like this, even "recovered" would be a great risk and am I willing to do this to myself again.

Each time she dumped me my heart broke into smaller fragments. There was still love in those fragments but rather than using my rational brain I was thinking with these fragmented pieces... .trying to put together something that was chard beyond repair.

Up until this last breakup my ex told me she still thinks she might go into a casino and be "ok" with it.  This woman lost everything. Part of my apprehension with her is I have saved a lot in my 38 years. She wanted us to get a house in ten years.

I could buy one tomorrow.

Point blank... .all those "demons" lie below the surface. As Ironman said, he would still be accepting 10% of the abuse.

That is 10% more than I am willing to accept!

[ShadowDancer]

This is a hypothetical question with no basis in reality. This is fantasy thinking. Why consider the implications of the unprovable? It is the same thinking we used in the relationships we endured. I can sum it up in two words... ."if only".  

[Waifed]

Frag... Hi... Ummm... No. Here's why. Trust... Gone. Honesty... .Gone. Respect... .Gone. By the time my ex could make herself healthy enough to gain some type of atonement for her behaviour with me I won't even remember her. I will have passed on from old age. Why put myself through all the insanity of learning to trust, honor, and respect someone that has NEVER shown me this in return. For me it was clearly a mistake in the first place. She was never compatible with me in the first place so been there done that. I want to move forward not backward. That's my story.

This... .

[maxen]

I'm not interested in her being cured from BPD. I'm interested in her trusting her BPD with me.

very nicely put. my w's BPD cannot remit. i know that. i deeply and sincerely believe that i can live with her that way if she can acknowledge her patterns and can absorb that she will never have to fear abandonment by me. because honestly she's a hot property. but she's very resistant to acknowledging any patterns at all in her behavior, much less their effect on others (viz, me). and anyway we've started the D process.  :'(

[necchi]

This post as made me think for the past month,10% is not acknowledging the pain she has caused, and her responsibilities. 10% of her behaviour would still cause grieve in my life. This is all crazy making, haven't we had enough? I'm no believer, and won't begin believing in miracles.

[damage control]

I'm not interested in her being cured from BPD. I'm interested in her trusting her BPD with me.

very nicely put. my w's BPD cannot remit. i know that. i deeply and sincerely believe that i can live with her that way if she can acknowledge her patterns and can absorb that she will never have to fear abandonment by me. because honestly she's a hot property. but she's very resistant to acknowledging any patterns at all in her behavior, much less their effect on others (viz, me). and anyway we've started the D process.  :'(

I find this idea that kinda ... .poisonous.

A few posts that speak of BPD and related disordered individuals as 'quirky' or 'eccentric' (I use just 2 of the terms I have seen) or somehow 'special' idealises what and who they are (to me).

They are not unicorns ... this is not a fantasy ... .

Letting go of the idea of possessing them (like a unicorn) does not work ... because the possession/engulfment drama is played out in their head as much as it is triggered by behaviour of their SO ... .

I just feel that thinking of them as some type of 'beautiful creature' that cannot be caught or tamed' ... infantalises and fetishises them ... .and releases them from responsibility from the destruction they caused... and devalues the destruction done to nons.

Of course, dating someone much younger (and whom one considers a 'student' infantalises by definition so ... .perhaps I am just stating the obvious.

Some things never, ever change.

[fromheeltoheal]

I find this idea that kinda ... .poisonous.

A few posts that speak of BPD and related disordered individuals as 'quirky' or 'eccentric' (I use just 2 of the terms I have seen) or somehow 'special' idealises what and who they are (to me).

They are not unicorns ... this is not a fantasy ... .

Letting go of the idea of possessing them (like a unicorn) does not work ... because the possession/engulfment drama is played out in their head as much as it is triggered by behaviour of their SO ... .

I just feel that thinking of them as some type of 'beautiful creature' that cannot be caught or tamed' ... infantalises and fetishises them ... .and releases them from responsibility from the destruction they caused... and devalues the destruction done to nons.

Of course, dating someone much younger (and whom one considers a 'student' infantalises by definition so ... .perhaps I am just stating the obvious.

Some things never, ever change.

I agree mostly damage, people with a serious mental illness and its consequences are entirely real, although what was a fantasy in my case was the entire relationship; I was her Knight in Shining Armor, the long sought after cure for her lifelong pain and trauma, and she was the woman who was going to 'save' me, finally understand and validate me, and be in love with me anyway.  An unsustainable fantasy both ways, built on shaky ground, bound to fail.

I do think if my borderline ex was significantly younger than me she would have affected me less and been a lot easier to tolerate.  As it was she was only a couple of years younger and initially I considered her my equal, since she parroted 'mature adult' pretty well, and had decades and many, many attachments to hone her craft of affecting an attachment with manipulation and lies, but the right lies mind you, and ones I considered the truth, while all the time being convinced that the relationship would end because I would leave her, that overriding undercurrent of abandonment fears, and she's driven enough suitors away to reinforce that belief to certainty.  I had met my match, and more damaging as such, where a youngster without the experience would probably have been as intoxicating if not more, but much less powerful.

[maxen]

I just feel that thinking of them as some type of 'beautiful creature' that cannot be caught or tamed' ... infantalises and fetishises them ... .and releases them from responsibility from the destruction they caused... and devalues the destruction done to nons.

DC you'll find that we're in agreement about this. see my post here:

https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=214884.msg12356112#msg12356112

[damage control]

I find this idea that kinda ... .poisonous.

A few posts that speak of BPD and related disordered individuals as 'quirky' or 'eccentric' (I use just 2 of the terms I have seen) or somehow 'special' idealises what and who they are (to me).

They are not unicorns ... this is not a fantasy ... .

Letting go of the idea of possessing them (like a unicorn) does not work ... because the possession/engulfment drama is played out in their head as much as it is triggered by behaviour of their SO ... .

I just feel that thinking of them as some type of 'beautiful creature' that cannot be caught or tamed' ... infantalises and fetishises them ... .and releases them from responsibility from the destruction they caused... and devalues the destruction done to nons.

Of course, dating someone much younger (and whom one considers a 'student' infantalises by definition so ... .perhaps I am just stating the obvious.

Some things never, ever change.

I agree mostly damage, people with a serious mental illness and its consequences are entirely real, although what was a fantasy in my case was the entire relationship; I was her Knight in Shining Armor, the long sought after cure for her lifelong pain and trauma, and she was the woman who was going to 'save' me, finally understand and validate me, and be in love with me anyway.  An unsustainable fantasy both ways, built on shaky ground, bound to fail.

I do think if my borderline ex was significantly younger than me she would have affected me less and been a lot easier to tolerate.  As it was she was only a couple of years younger and initially I considered her my equal, since she parroted 'mature adult' pretty well, and had decades and many, many attachments to hone her craft of affecting an attachment with manipulation and lies, but the right lies mind you, and ones I considered the truth, while all the time being convinced that the relationship would end because I would leave her, that overriding undercurrent of abandonment fears, and she's driven enough suitors away to reinforce that belief to certainty.  I had met my match, and more damaging as such, where a youngster without the experience would probably have been as intoxicating if not more, but much less powerful.

Yes ... the fantasy does spin both ways doesn't it?

I think many of us feel fundamentally unlovable and somehow, in the beginning, confused a person with mental health issues with someone who really saw us ... .finally.

Mine to was/is the same age and he too has many, many relationships/encounters/'friendships' (as he would call them) under his belt ... in fact, I think, looking back that the fact that I had been completely single for 7 years drew him like a moth to a flame ... .he someone who would resist ... be a challenge ... not cave straight away ... and I didn't. He had to bring his A game to seduce me ... and bring it he did. My own reluctance to give myself away turned out to be my biggest appeal ... .and of course, once I was hooked ... well ... we all know the story ... are all living it.

[Waifed]

The healthier you get during the healing process the less likely your answer will be "yes". 

[damage control]

I just feel that thinking of them as some type of 'beautiful creature' that cannot be caught or tamed' ... infantalises and fetishises them ... .and releases them from responsibility from the destruction they caused... and devalues the destruction done to nons.

DC you'll find that we're in agreement about this. see my post here:

https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=214884.msg12356112#msg12356112

Thanks for the link Maxen.

I had read that when you wrote it and entirely agree.

I especially agree with the idea that some set formula of 'healing' (and I have issues with that word for starters) can be applied to achieve a set outcome. Non of us ... nons, BPD's ... are fixed, homogeneous groups so it is impossible to apply commonised treatment/s to an uncommon whole. And that doesn't even begin to address the fact/s that not everyone here sees standing in the sun as a desired outcome.

I like the shadows. I am happy here ... well, as happy as I can be ... but this abstract concept of 'happiness'... that it is something tangible and shared ... something we should all strive to achieve through a mechanised set of 'steps' ... .well ... .it's problematic at best.