How to have a healthy divorce?

[toomanytears]

My BPDh has started divorce proceedings against me having walked out in August. He insists I threw him out 'onto the street' and won't come back because he 'fears for his personal safety'. All nonesense because he's come back several times with and without me around. It's been extremely painful but I'm finally reconciled that I've just got to let him go. He hates me, I trigger him and there is no other way.

To begin with he went at the divorce hell for leather. Threatened court and set me a deadline of June to finalise financial separation so he can buy his own place. Now he's had his first solicitor's bill, which obviously totally scared him. He's never been good with money. Always late paying taxes, getting fined etc etc. But anything legal puts the fear of god into him.

So he wants me to read a book called 'How to have a healthy divorce', work things out together and avoid expensive legal costs. It's full of practical sensible advice and I am only too happy to read it and follow the guidelines. However, I've decided I won't meet him to discuss anything unless we have a mediator.

But, somehow I don't think it will be plain sailing... . I suspect that mediation will go totally against the grain of a BPD mind.

I'd very much like to hear other boarder's experiences... . has anyone out there tried mediation? If so, what was the outcome? Is it a waste of time? Shall I just refer him to my solicitor?

Thoughts welcome!

[Matt]

Many of us have tried mediation, but it means different things in different places.  Might be best to get your solicitor to explain how things work where you live, so you'll understand the process and how it's likely to go.

If the other party has BPD or something similar, it's not likely that mediation will work.  People with BPD tend to have a sense of entitlement, and tend to deal with things in unpredictable ways;  it may be hard for your husband to tell what is "fair" or "reasonable", or to see things from your point of view - all critical skills to negotiate a settlement.

Some things that might help - maybe you can accomplish something in mediation even if you need to bring in attorneys to finish the job afterward:

* Tell your husband you need to see a proposed settlement from him before the expense of the mediator.  That will give you a clear idea what he thinks is reasonable, and you can decide which issues, if any, can be settled in mediation, and which need to be left to the attorneys to solve.

* If he won't make a proposal, you can make one.  Find out how the courts usually rule on each issue;  for example, there may be a worksheet to figure out alimony.  Make your proposal close to what the guidelines and customs say is right.

* Once you have made your proposal, be willing to answer questions about it or clarify it, but don't make a second proposal - wait for a written response from your husband.

* When you're with the mediator, let her do most of the work.  Talk as little as possible.

* Bring a notebook and write down what your husband says - the arguments he uses - because they are likely to come up again later.

* When you are far apart on an issue, and you believe that your position is fair and his isn't, don't spend much time on it.  Just say, "We're pretty far apart on that issue so I don't think it's worth spending time on.  We'll have to let the attorneys solve it."  If you are right - your position is reasonable and his isn't - then if it goes to court, the court will rule in your favor on that issue.

In general, the "collaborative" approach which works well for most divorces - and saves a lot of money - doesn't work when one party has BPD.  It's worth trying because any issues that get resolved might save a little money.  But be prepared to go the legal route.  Many of us have been able to settle only "on the courthouse steps" - that is, shortly before the trial date.

[trappeddad]

my BPD ex felt entitled to everything at mediation.    a big waste of time.    of course she now claims that she was giving up stuff months later.     

[oblivian2013]

My cluster-B wife asked for mediation at the trial management conference in December. It will be scheduled in late January or so. She also got a chance to observe my lawyer, which she didn't expect because she left when I had exhausted my bank account. A few days later she called the police and said I had a gun in the house. Since it is a civil matter, the police just asked me if I did and I said no. I have a PFA order so that would be real stupid. Anyway, she wants me to sell the house and give her half. I bought it with inheritance money, but unwisely put her name on the deed. She also put together an inflated inventory of household items, most of which I bought with the same money. She didn't tell her attorney this and she assumed we bought it together and had a mortgage. So my attorney said "ask her what she wants." I am not selling the house because it is near my job. But my lawyer said if we go to trial I might end up having to sell the house. We were only married two years. When she abandoned me she said she wanted to become independent. Sure, with my money and non-marital car that she took. 6 months NC and finally getting better. What a weasel.

[Matt]

Regarding money issues, here's how it works where I live:

* You calculate the assets accumulated during the marriage, by adding up the assets you both have now minus the assets you both had at the start of the marriage.

* Do the same with debts - calculate the debt added during the marriage.

* Subtract to get the net assets accumulated during the marriage.

* If it's practical, you want each party to retain the assets and debts they brought to the marriage.

* The net assets accumulated during the marriage should be split "equitably".  That doesn't necessarily mean "equally", because sometimes there are assets (like a house) that can't be split.  But you come up with the best way to split the assets and debts so what was accumulated during the marriage goes to both parties as equally as possible.

* For alimony, there is a worksheet (in my state) based on both parties' incomes and expenses.  It's just a guideline - you an argue for more or less - but usually the court will order something close to what that worksheet says.

* Same thing for child support - a different worksheet - depends how much each party makes and how much time the kids spend with each of you.

This can all be worked out on paper, so you have a solid, sensible proposal.  Present it to the other side, or get them to make a proposal to you.  If both parties are close to how the court usually rules where you live, you can probably work out the differences.  If the parties are far apart on some issues, you might have to leave those issues alone and let the court decide.

My suggestion would be, don't fall in love with any specific thing, even a house.  There are other houses.  If the way out of the marriage requires you to sell the house, split the assets, and find a smaller house, don't fight it too hard - it's not worth it - the lawyers will get all the money.  Figure out what the court usually decides where you live, and go to that place, and see if the other side will settle or wants to go to court.  If they want to go to court, go there as fast as possible so you minimize the time, energy and money spent fighting.

[livednlearned]

My ex has strong narcissistic traits. I am not sure, but I think that helped me in mediation. We were able to resolve about 95% of our issues after mediating for roughly 10 hours. The only thing I would not agree to was joint legal custody of our son. So the consent order says that plaintiff and defendant agree to this that and the other thing, but the parties do not agree on joint legal and that issue must be heard by the court.

The consent order had a lot of deadlines, including refinancing our house, giving me the title to my car. n/BPDx did not comply.

So in my case, (which is apparently a bit unusual from other cases here) we agreed to lots of things in mediation, but then N/BPDx stonewalled and obstructed everything he agreed to. I eventually got full custody of S12, eventually the house was refinanced (took about 22 months and two motions for contempt), and the car title (one motion for contempt and two amendments). But it has taken 3 years.

If your ex is motivated to settle in mediation, try to get the language as tight as possible, and include consequences for not complying. That will give the judge an easy time in the unfortunate likelihood that you might have to take your ex to court over non-compliance.

[toomanytears]

Thanks guys for all for your very useful replies and advice. These boards are so immensely helpful.

I've had another email from my BPDh saying we should meet to discuss finances and negotiate.

It just won't work one to one because I know I'll dissolve into tears. I can't handle being with him - it makes me so sad and intimidated. I suspect he interprets this as rejection - further afirmation of his feelings of abandonment. I think he just doesn't get it's the opposite.

I think I could speak to him with a mediator present and your suggestions have given me some invaluable guidelines, for instance, I hadn't thought of exchanging some proposals first. I'm using Bill Eddy's book on splitting up/divorcing a borderline to help me to frame the words.

If he doesn't agree to a mediator or collaboration he'll have to accept that negotiations will go through our solicitors.

Let's see what happens... .

[Matt]

You could tell him you're willing to meet with him, but you're not quite ready yet, and you think it will work best with a mediator, and with a proposal on the table - could even be a simple list of issues and proposed solutions:

Issue:  Cars

Proposal:  Each party will retain the car they are driving, and will own it and make all remaining payments.

Issue:  401(k)s

Proposal:  We will add up what is in both parties' 401(k)s and divide by two.  Then make a single payment of half the difference to make the total equal.  That payment should be made within 30 days of the settlement date.

etc.

Later it can be turned into legal language with the help of an attorney.  It's very likely the attorney will also raise other issues that neither of you thought about, and help you resolve them.  But this beginning could happen with any mediator - an attorney or someone else.

The book he suggested might also have some steps to take - maybe it will help if you go by that since he suggested it.

[ForeverDad]

Issue:  401(k)s

Proposal:  We will add up what is in both parties' 401(k)s and divide by two.  Then make a single payment of half the difference to make the total equal.  That payment should be made within 30 days of the settlement date.

Generally the way to shift 401(k) or other retirement money from one spouse to the other is to use a Qualified Domestic Relations Order (QDRO).  Rather than taking cash out directly, the best method to move the money is to first transfer it to a separate retirement account in the name of the recipient and then the recipient can do whatever with the money since it is no longer the giver's responsibility.  (If it was paid directly to the spouse with 'hopes' it would be put into a retirement account, it would expose the spouse paying it to tax obligations or penalties if it wasn't put into a retirement account as expected.)

[livednlearned]

Issue:  401(k)s

Proposal:  We will add up what is in both parties' 401(k)s and divide by two.  Then make a single payment of half the difference to make the total equal.  That payment should be made within 30 days of the settlement date.

Generally the way to shift 401(k) or other retirement money from one spouse to the other is to use a Qualified Domestic Relations Order (QDRO).  Rather than taking cash out directly, the best method to move the money is to first transfer it to a separate retirement account in the name of the recipient and then the recipient can do whatever with the money since it is no longer the giver's responsibility.  (If it was paid directly to the spouse with 'hopes' it would be put into a retirement account, it would expose the spouse paying it to tax obligations or penalties if it wasn't put into a retirement account as expected.)

I hired a separate lawyer to handle this -- other than a house, it's the biggest asset you will likely divide. And my L, who is very competent in family law, did not want to mess with QDRO's because they can be very tricky. I know some members here have handled their QDRO's on their own (FD, I think you did if I remember correctly), but it's not uncommon to pay a few hundred dollars to have someone handle this for you. The issues can be very complex, and if your ex is financially savvy, or legally trained, you may want to buy yourself some peace of mind to make sure that everything is taken care of properly, with no risk to you.

[toomanytears]

Thanks all

Good idea Matt to work it all out on paper first and then submit as a proposal. I'll give it a go. My solicitor is sympathetic so far - advocating a softly softly approach but aware of pitfalls ahead.

TMT

[Matt]

My lawyer coached me on how to minimize cost but get good results:  Do everything I could myself.  I made copies.  I looked up bank records.  I printed stuff out.  I did rough drafts of things and then she fixed them up right.

So... . if you do the rough draft of your proposal you'll probably save a lot of money, vs. your lawyer starting with a blank sheet of paper and doing it all herself.

[toomanytears]

My lawyer coached me on how to minimize cost but get good results:  Do everything I could myself.  I made copies.  I looked up bank records.  I printed stuff out.  I did rough drafts of things and then she fixed them up right.

So... . if you do the rough draft of your proposal you'll probably save a lot of money, vs. your lawyer starting with a blank sheet of paper and doing it all herself.

Good plan Matt, thanks.