how can I help him?

[six]

I have posted before about my BPDs26.  He lives in an apartment a few blocks away from our house (me, dh, and our four daughters, ranging in age from 24 to 9). we have another son (19) who is away at school.

DS26 is resentful at our 2 oldest daughters (24,22) bec they live at home and it is pretty much impossible for him to visit us without having an explosion.  the last two times he came over, he left almost immediately bec he cannot tolerate being in the house with his sisters.  he told me to let him know when they are not around and then he will come over.  I realize this is not a catastrophic situation by any means.  it is actually a vast improvement from when he was living here and having daily meltdowns.  I have tried to speak with him about his resentment toward his sisters, but it seems that their existence is intolerable to him.  I am just wondering if anyone has any insight into this situation?

Our objective is to better understand the struggles our child faces and to learn the skills to improve our relationship and provide a supportive environment and also improve on our own emotional responses, attitudes and effectiveness as a family leaders

[MammaMia]

six

My dBPDs39 has painted his sister and her family black.  They are NC and have been for about 18 months.  I have learned there is nothing I can do or say to change this.

Interestingly, he asks about them all the time.  Just cannot stand to be around them.  He sees them as greedy, manipulative, and superficial.  They see him as sick.  NC is the only way to avoid meltdown.

It is what it is.

[six]

thanks, MamaMia

I hear you

he has been seeing a therapist for 6 months 2x per week.  his explosions are quieter, quicker and less vitriolic, which I imagine is a result of the therapy.  but he still doesn't have the ability to work thru a problem in a relationship.  I am wondering if there is more that I could give to him other than saying, "OK, dear, I understand that you don't want to come over here anymore as long as your sisters are around. "   can he develop skills to preserve a relationship even if he is unhappy with someone's behavior?

[Kate4queen]

I don't think this is fixable.

my BPD son bullied and harassed and made his older brother's life a nightmare when they all lived at home. We intervened and tried to help but just made it worse.  After he left, oldest declined to have anything to do with BPD son. When BPD son insisted on confronting his bro about this (at my house of course) he was totally gobsmacked that his big brother could actually say to his face that he didn't want or need to have a relationship with him. It was almost funny that BPD son had no ability to  remember what a nightmare he'd put oldest through or understand that just because he was willing to move on that oldest wasn't. (Oldest (25) is incredibly wise btw now and helps us make difficult decisions regarding BPD son because he has a unique perspective on the whole situation.)

I'm telling you this as an example of why trying to fix things and make them all get along doesn't work. Two things to consider though.

1. Accept that your dd's need a heads up if their bro is coming over so that they can decide whether they want to interact with him.

2. Ask yourself whether you need to set a boundary about him continuing to dictate to you what goes on in your own home.

[six]

Hi K4Q

the part that I think might be progress is that he told me he will not come here anymore as long as the girls are here.  he asked me not to invite him and I agreed.  I think that was him putting a boundary which I am willing to respect.  it is better for all of us if he does not come when they are home.

what is still hard for me is to accept that it is OK for him to be by himself in his apartment while we are all enjoying each other at home.  he clearly prefers this and I need to wrap my brain around that it is ok (better) for him to be alone than with us.

I agree that the situation is probably not fixable.  I still have my fantasy, however, that he will pull himself together. in terms of saying the truth, I am wondering if there is anything I could say to him.  I have tried to ask him if he believes that he plays any role in the situation with his sisters, but of course, he doesn't see his piece.  I guess I am still looking for the magic words that are going to make everything right.  sigh . . .

[Kate4queen]

Hi K4Q

the part that I think might be progress is that he told me he will not come here anymore as long as the girls are here.  he asked me not to invite him and I agreed.  I think that was him putting a boundary which I am willing to respect.  it is better for all of us if he does not come when they are home.

what is still hard for me is to accept that it is OK for him to be by himself in his apartment while we are all enjoying each other at home.  he clearly prefers this and I need to wrap my brain around that it is ok (better) for him to be alone than with us.

I agree that the situation is probably not fixable.  I still have my fantasy, however, that he will pull himself together. in terms of saying the truth, I am wondering if there is anything I could say to him.  I have tried to ask him if he believes that he plays any role in the situation with his sisters, but of course, he doesn't see his piece.  I guess I am still looking for the magic words that are going to make everything right.  sigh . . .

Well that's definitely progress.

I've given up on my fantasy of a happy family at the moment. All I hope is that one day in the future we can all sit in the same room and just get along, but I think it is going to take years before that happens.

It's not what I want, but at least all the separate units of the family are living in relative peace, which is a blessing.

[pessim-optimist]

What seem to be the specifics of the relationship problems your son has with his sisters?

I am not sure if there is an immediate solution... . For the time being, accepting his staying away is probably good. For the future, if you feel up to it, you might tell him you miss him and wondered if he doesn't feel left out, and that you would love for him to feel included. And then, you could try to brainstorm with him... I would ask him what he thought could do different to feel better around his sisters, in spite of what the sisters "are doing" that ticks him off. You could be there to help him discover some coping skills that would be useful for him all around... .

[six]

in a nutshell, the problems he has with his sisters is that they are allowed to live here with us and he is not. 

ever since he was a teenager and started acting out horribly, I told him he was going to have to move out of the house if he did not control his behavior.  at a point, I asked my parents if they would take him and they agreed but this never actually happened. when he was around 15 or 16 my DH told him if he did not shape up, he was going to be shipped out bec we could not handle his outbursts.  this never happened, but he believes that he is not welcome in our home and his siblings have all been welcome

over the years, the problem resurfaced.  he moved out to go to school when he was 18, but would come home for summer vacation and school breaks.  it was always a disaster from the moment he walked into the house.   so I would spend a lot of his vacation time telling him if he does not get under control, he is not going to be welcome to come home yadda yadda yadda.  this all happened before I knew anything about BPD

this past summer things came to a head.  he was 26 years old and a full time student, when his dorm closed, he moved home for the summer.  DISASTER.  nonstop picking of fights with everyone, judging every one else's behavior, non-stop commenting on everything the other kids say or do, etc. etc.  by the end of the summer, I told DH either he leaves, or I am leaving.  cant go on like this.  thankfully, he found a small apartment and moved in a few blocks away from here.

so his issue with his sisters is that they live here and are welcomed here and he is not.  they are both adults with jobs and he feels they should have to move out just like he did.  he does not accept that there is any difference between the way he behaves and the way they behave.  they shop cook, take care of younger siblings by driving, etc,  and generally make my life easier, not harder. 

even though he says he is not welcome, I invite him and his girlfriend, and they come over all the time to hang out and raid the fridge, I make dinner and include them.  I bought him and his girlfriend gifts for the holidays and for birthdays, I offered to pay for his car repair.  in other words, I do a lot of things to be kind to him, but the ultimate "gift" letting him live here, I am not willing to give.  for this reason, his sisters are the enemy bec they have what he is being denied

I understand why he feels angry.  I have tried to explain to him that his behavior contributes to why he cant live here.  but of course he does not accept this because he thinks his behavior is perfectly logical and acceptable.  I also think this is a very old feeling of being rejected by me that he has carried around with him for a long time.

[Rapt Reader]

Your dilemma is interesting to me, six, because I've experienced something similar. And the odd thing is that the conflict has come from my non-BPD son, who had complained about his older brother (my BPD son, 36), who has been living at home after almost committing suicide when he was 20 years old, prior to his being diagnosed with his many diagnoses.

Your BPD son is jealous of his sisters living at home, though he actually has a girlfriend now, who I'm assuming he sees regularly? And she may even spend the night with him from time to time at least? In my case, my non-son is only 2 years younger than his brother, lives a great life with a wife and kid, about 5 hours away from us. His complaining about his BPD brother living with us really has only started since he got married 9 years ago, and truly never made sense to us.

Turns out, in a conversation last year (while my older son was in his Dual Diagnosis Program, and prior to his discharge where we learned of his BPD diagnosis), my non-son plaintively said that his brother had a closer relationship with myself and their father (my husband) because he lived with us. He was jealous of that fact; that his brother had something he didn't have in that sense and he wanted that, too.

Strangely, my BPD son had pretty much nothing at the time of that statement. He had just lived through the totaling of his beloved car, an arrest, a suicidal ideation that landed him in the Psych Ward a few weeks before, and was now confined to an Inpatient DD Program. He had no girlfriend, no car, no money, no job, no future, nothing. But, he had us as his parents to come home to so that he wouldn't be homeless and left to his recovery by himself on the streets.

My non-son, with a great job in an important city, a beautiful wife (pregnant at the time), a cool condo they owned, trips to neat places on the roster as usual, a new car, etc. The only thing he didn't actually have was a close relationship with us, his parents, and his brother. This son is married to a gorgeous, charming woman who I believe is undiagnosed BPD, therefore our relationship with them at the time (before I learned about BPD, and thus, this site) was pretty fraught with landmines and we were walking on eggshells with the two of them before I even knew what that indicated    They've been together for 10 years, and it was like that from the beginning of their relationship, and the tension took its toll, leading to my non-son's jealousy of his brother's relationship with us at that time.

Since learning about BPD, I've changed the way I've been communicating and relating to my uBPD D-I-L and my non-son (loaded with fleas because of his wife), and things seem better and closer now... . almost a year after my non-son's complaint about his brother. I think he may still be a bit jealous of his brother's relationship with us, but he does understand now just why his BPD brother needs to live at home, and is cognizant of all of his brother's many troubles to due his many Dxs, so he's not feeling sorry for himself anymore.

I don't know if this story can help you in any way; I'm just wondering if your son is not actually looking to come back home and live with you again, but if he's trying to express the fact that he sees that his sisters are closer to you and your husband than he is, and that is what is hurting him inside. Your son has BPD and a very difficult emotional life--like my non-son's difficulties emotionally due to a uBPD wife most likely--and maybe the idea of the warm cozy comfort of a really good, close relationship with Mom & Dad seems like something to covet.

If so, that would be something to be jealous about, and it causes anger in him. I do know that my non-son did have a lot of anger about that, himself... . It expressed itself in very edgy, sarcastic and push-pull ways in his dealings with us, and we could never figure it out. At least now, with my other son's troubles clearly delineated and now understood by all of us, my non-son is accepting of the situation and not as angry and hurt. I hope there's a way it will work out in the end for your family, too  

[Kate4queen]

There is also the point that your son knows that you feel guilty about asking him to leave and knows that it is a way to emotionally guilt you out and upset you-because as you say, there is a grain of truth in what he believes.

In my experience with my son, he will hone in on those perceived areas of weakness/guilt we have about him and try to exploit them to get the reaction he needs, in my son's case, he wants us to get angry with him and get into a fight so that he can feel better about his own anger issues.

Here's an example. He recently emailed my husband and while asking for $2,000 a month, or $20K lump sum he hit these hot button issues with my DH.

1. you care more about your money than me.

2. You are a bad father.

3. I am a disabled little boy and you owe me.

4. You moved away from me, how dare you.

Initial knee jerk reaction for my DH, totally gutted feels like a bad bad parent. Because those are All the triggers my son has placed in my husband over the years to make him jump to fix things.

So when you say your son is actually doing okay, has his own place and a girlfriend etc and comes round, don't you think he's just pushing your buttons to get a reaction while you bend over backwards to make things better for him? In his BPD eyes you will never do enough and never could. Would you really want him back in your house? I doubt it. I certainly couldn't live with my son at the moment, maybe in a few years.

That's what I meant in my earlier post about allowing him still to control how you react to him in your own house. You are obviously an amazing and caring parent, so don't let him make you doubt that.

[MammaMia]

I think part of this dilemma is just plain old sibling rivalry.  Mental illness in one sibling just complicates things even more.

My dBPDs and his non sister have not spoken in 18 months.  He sees her as someone who has "everything": good job, loving husband, two children, nice home, new vehicles, a boat, a Harley etc, etc.  They work hard for what they have and they make good money and love to spend it.  It has not always been that way.

He on the other hand has BPD.  He has not been able to keep a job his entire adult life.  He is living in a family home my sister and I own.  No rent.  I pay the bills there.  He in turn does all the maintenance and takes really good care of the house and property (1.5 acres) which would otherwise be empty. He has shingled the roof, painted the house, and built a 132 foot privacy fence in the past 2 years. We are actually very grateful he is there. Yes, he also depends on me for money for food and gas. He has nothing... . everything he owns would fit in a trashbag.  He also knows he will never have a "normal" life and basically lives day to day.  

Unfortunately, my dd sees her brother as spoiled and getting special treatment.  She wishes someone would "take care" of her.  She does not get the depth of his disorder and how he is actually doing the best he can.  She sees him as manipulative and an attention whore.

As I look back on their childhoods, they have always been rivals for my attention, and I have helped them both financially and emotionally, trying very hard to be fair.   My daughter and her family have lived in the house my son is in now rent-free on 3 occasions when they had no place to go due to a bankruptcy and her husband being diagnosed with severe rheumatoid arthritis and losing his concrete business.  He and is a meat cutter now and still goes to work every day, although some days he can barely walk.  My dd is a Certified Pharmacy Technician.  As I said they have worked very hard for what they have and should be grateful and proud of what they have accomplished.    

I view this issue between my children as theirs and try not to get involved.  I am doing what I have to do where my dBPDs is concerned and I will not feel guilty for it.  I wish things were different but they are not.

Our objective is to better understand the struggles our child faces and to learn the skills to improve our relationship and provide a supportive environment and also improve on our own emotional responses, attitudes and effectiveness as a family leaders

[six]

thanks for the responses.  you all gave me a lot to think about

Rapt, thanks for sharing your story.  I think that jealousy about the closeness I have with the girls is very much an issue for him.  It is interesting that it is your nonBPD son who is feeling jealous of your closeness with your BPDs.  it is helpful to me to think about this, because I would like to be closer to my BPDs, but so often when I try to get close to him, he shuts me out.  it is much easier to be closer to his sisters, bec they actually want a close relationship with me.  however, even for me to be aware of this piece is so helpful. 

Kate4Q,  I chuckled when i read the email your son wrote to your DH because it could have been written by my DS.  especially the part about you care about your money (substitute house) more than you care about me .  yes, I  do feel that he is trying to guilt me and I also feel that I spend a lot of my energy bending over backwards trying to figure out how to make him feel welcome.  but there is also a part of me that feels that he is a hurt little boy and perhaps I played a role in those hurts because I didn't know how to handle things in the past. I wish I could go back in time and do things differently.  however, I definitely do not want him to move back into my house.   I  wish that he could come home and not always be acting out and creating drama.  reality is, that is not going to happen any time soon.

MammaMia, I agree that a big part of this is sibling rivalry  and that this is my children's issue and not my own.  I have also tried to do what I think is fair, but he does not see it that way.  he believes that I favor the girls at his expense.  I think my challenge is to find a way to let got of this and let it be what it is

[co.jo]

The part I have trouble with in my family is that the non BPD sibs have rejected their sister, and she refuses to speak to me because she does not think I have done enough to get them to accept her. I do not know how to get out of the middle of this one. But both sides think the other one has had preferential treatment.

[pessim-optimist]

I see what you are saying, six. That is definitely not an easy fix. I also agree that this is a part of sibling rivalry. I would not cater to his pushing your buttons and guilting you, at the same time, I would try to address the underlying feeling he has of being excluded and rejected.

Perhaps you can look for ways to do something special with your son that does not include the sisters to make a closer connection with him, a connection that is unique to who he is?

Co.jo:

The non sibs (I'm asuming they're adult?) will have to get over it on their own. I would validate their feelings, nurture my separate relationship with them, and let them work it out on their own (I'd try to explain things and educate them, if they are interested).

I would keep reaching out to the BPD kid, relating a message "I love you, I want to be there for you." If she came back with "why don't you persuade my sibs to talk to me?" I would say "Honey, I am so sorry, it must be so painful that they do not want to talk to you. How is cutting yourself from me as well and being more lonely going to make your situation better?"

[jellibeans]

Just throwing in my two cents... . I do think it is sibling rivalry. My BPD dd16 is very jealous of my dd19. And my dd19 finds it hard to be around her sister when she can be so verbally abusive at times.

What is comes down to I try and teach my older dd19 what Ihave learrned about BPD. I try to tell her about radical acceptance and most of all I tell her that they will always be sisters long after I am dead and they need to be there for each other.

I try not to be drawn into their fights and I try to defuse the conflict before things get out of control. My dd16 use to go in my dd19 room and steal from her... . constantly... . she cared nothing about the consuquences... . she needed that shirt or whatever... . so we put a lock on her sisters door and the stealing stopped. I have no way of controling my dd16 behavior... . see cares very little about consequences at times when her focus is on something she needs or wants.

My dd19 is at college now and I find they get along pretty good since they don't see each other much... . don't know what will happen when summer comings but right now I am enjoying the peace.

[cbcrna1]

BPD is an attachment disorder, your son sees the children living with you as a threat to his attachment to you.  His sense of attachment is on the magnitude of life and death for him.  Validation with clarification of what he is feeling might help.  Has he any experience with DBT?  Could you see him at his place and not at your home?   Your home probably is a trigger for negative emotions for him.

[six]

interesting point about the attachment disorder part.  i was extremely perhaps overly attached to BPDs when he was born, my first baby.  I couldn't get enough of him.  When my second child was born, the one who is next in line after BPDS26, he had a terrible reaction to her (he was almost 2 years old).  when the next child was born, he was 4 and same thing happened.  it made sense to me that when he was a little child, he would react badly to losing his spot at the center of my world.  what didn't make so much sense to me is that when my youngest child was born, BPDs was 17 years old and he had the same extreme reaction to her birth that he had to all the other kids.  its like each time I had a child I took away his place all over again.  my home and my other kids are definitely a trigger for him. 

funny, you should mention doing something alone with BPDs, because last weekend, for the first time ever, my husband and I went away with BPDs, just the three of us and his gf joined us for part of it.  we had a really nice time except that BPDs barely spoke.  he didn't seem angry, just kind of withdrawn and bored.  it seems like when we are not at home, he seems to lose his anger, and also his personality.  like the only way he knows how to relate to us is to rage

[jellibeans]

six

I think it is excellent that you went away with your ds... . I think that is a good start... . meeting outside of the house I think it really good idea and in time he will adjust. He probably is very lost at how to react and that is good. Opens the door to new things and new behaviors. I really see this as a step in the right direction.

[Kate4queen]

funny, you should mention doing something alone with BPDs, because last weekend, for the first time ever, my husband and I went away with BPDs, just the three of us and his gf joined us for part of it.  we had a really nice time except that BPDs barely spoke.  he didn't seem angry, just kind of withdrawn and bored.  it seems like when we are not at home, he seems to lose his anger, and also his personality.  like the only way he knows how to relate to us is to rage

Oh my gosh, that last bit? 'Like the only way he knows how to relate to us is to rage"? that's my son in a nutshell.

We've been practicing all these validation techniques with him over the last 6 months of emails and He HATES it! Accuses us of being deliberately non-confontational and passive aggressive.

Also, in truth, he doesn't want to see us or let us into his world or let us meet anyone he is currently close to because he knows that meeting us would challenge his world view as we're not how he portrays us to others at all. It's very interesting actually as he just doesn't know how to handle us if we won't join him in the rage fest.

[pessim-optimist]

... . we had a really nice time except that BPDs barely spoke.  he didn't seem angry, just kind of withdrawn and bored.  it seems like when we are not at home, he seems to lose his anger, and also his personality.  like the only way he knows how to relate to us is to rage

... . It's very interesting actually as he just doesn't know how to handle us if we won't join him in the rage fest.

When we change, and don't engage in the dysfunctional dance, the dynamic in the relationship changes. It forces the pwBPD to adapt, which must be very stressful at first - it is unfamiliar territory, and it can feel threatening to them. That's when we have a chance to shape some new patterns with reinforcing positive behavior (no guarantees, just good opportunities).

[six]

Also, in truth, he doesn't want to see us or let us into his world or let us meet anyone he is currently close to because he knows that meeting us would challenge his world view as we're not how he portrays us to others at all.

K4Q, one of the things that drives my kids crazy when he comes over is that he paints us all black to his girlfriend (who seems like a nice person) and then when she is here, they will sit in the same room with us, commenting in an undertone about us and he will say things to her like, see, isn't that just like what I told you?  she doesn't seem to know exactly how to respond so she just smiles uncomfortably.  the whole thing is bizarre.  he told me that he only feels safe in the house when gf is here with him bec she is the only one who really has his back.

Pess-opt, I agree that the dynamic is changing between us, I guess time will tell if he is able to adapt.

Our objective is to better understand the struggles our child faces and to learn the skills to improve our relationship and provide a supportive environment and also improve on our own emotional responses, attitudes and effectiveness as a family leaders