Interesting blogger opinion on BPD men

[How to communicate after a contentious divorce...]

Hi,

 I found  this blogger's opinion very interesting and could relate to since I'm "just friends" with my male BPD friend.  www.strangedaysinthecity.wordpress.com/2013/05/02/boderline-boys-and-6-ways

 Happy reading.  The blogger validated a lot of what I am feeling/going through.  I'm glad I have this website and others for support.  Sometimes I just feel so blah!  It's not easy to just walk away when you genuinely love a person. Don't worry I'll get through this - I'm determined.

[sharlock]

Hi,

 I found  this blogger's opinion very interesting and could relate to since I'm "just friends" with my male BPD friend.  www.strangedaysinthecity.wordpress.com/2013/05/02/boderline-boys-and-6-ways

 Happy reading.  The blogger validated a lot of what I am feeling/going through.  I'm glad I have this website and others for support.  Sometimes I just feel so blah!  It's not easy to just walk away when you genuinely love a person. Don't worry I'll get through this - I'm determined.

[Take2]

Very interesting... . thanks for posting!

[Findingmysong723]

Good article! These are the things that resonated with me

"They need you to love them; but they can’t love you. Borderline men have a morbid curiosity with unrequited love. They think they love women who are unavailable to them; and deny love to women who are available. Borderline people may experience the emotion of love, but they can’t love in the verb sense." I showed him love and I didn't like chaos etc in my relationship and he seems more comfortable with that. Seeing his Dad abuse his Mom when he was little, allowed him to have a dysfunctional relationship be the first example of what marriage should be like.


"It’s also been my experience that Borderline men do NOT typically sleep with women they’re emotionally intimate with. Basically, their misogynist nature doesn’t allow them to see a woman as both a person and a sexual object at the same time. Once you become a sexual object to him, you become less of a full person."

" This subject has always been an interest of mine, since our sex life was so off. When we first started dating, telling me he liked to have sex outside etc, getting upset when he didn't feel things were going exactly as planned, had major anxiety and literally walk away from me upset... . very humiliating. Also, would initiate sex at "bad times" as in right after I got home from a long day at work and didn't feel too sexy or right after I picked up dinner and was starving. I mean I would of loved to have sex with him that day but later. Also, he withdrew from sex a lot, then he would complain that we never have sex. I remember he told me that he was always up for sex, but he would reject me when I would initiate it... . it was a control thing big time! I'm not perfect and neither is he, but boy someone you loved not wanting to have sex with you, is hard on the heart and the self esteem!

[Skip]

"It’s also been my experience that Borderline men do NOT typically sleep with women they’re emotionally intimate with. Basically, their misogynist nature doesn’t allow them to see a woman as both a person and a sexual object at the same time. Once you become a sexual object to him, you become less of a full person."

Yikes!  Hey guys, as moderators we do or best to point out the junk psychology.

This blogger is extrapolating her experience into psychology theories.  I'm sure she means well and in the context of a bloggers opinion, what she says is fair game on her blog.

However, re-quoting here as authoritative material is misleading to members here.  It's just one womans thoughts and they are far afield to what the researchers have documented.

The author describes herself as: godless game goddess, ubik using sci-fi junkie, dancer, demoness, artist, politico, photographer, poet, prosetitute.

[shesread]

Hi. I'm the author of said post. The moderator is right. This is based on experience, working with a therapist ... . and digging through clinical research. Not all BPD or NPD behavior is the same.

Just to give you some background about me. I have a B.A. in Cognitive Psychology and an M.F.A. in writing (I make my living writing commercials. advertisements and mobile video games). In my youth, I worked in mental health facilities and substance abuse recover centers, so I'm not a complete amateur. As an undergrad I also was a research assistant to a psychology professor, albeit on an entirely different topic. I also has to conduct my own research, write a thesis and defend it just to get a B.A. (amazing school) ... . so I know how to conduct research and read the literature. Nothing i have said contradicts any of the BPD research I've come across, but it does extrapolate beyond research... . but so does therapy.

Most therapy isn't "research-based" like it is in academia. It's experience and common-sense based. That's what this article is for... . to help people identify a toxic relationship with a BPD or other Cluster B personality disordered person.

For me, all that matters is that people who feel empty, hurt or even destroyed by one of these relationships knows that they're not crazy or unlovable... . that other people have also been involved in these emotionally destructive relationships... . and if that helps someone see something for what it is and heal... . My mission has been accomplished.

In other words, don't throw out good advice just because it doesn't have a PhD behind its name. If you relate with it; you relate. Clinical research is great for understanding; but not for healing. Relating with people on an empathetic level by sharing experiences is the best medicine. That's why AA is so successful.

If it's any constellation, I will be going for my MFT in the Fall.

--Your Truly--

Godless Game Goddess, Ubik Using SciFi Junkie

[DreamGirl]

This is based on experience, working with a therapist ... . and digging through clinical research.

You make the point that all BPD men have a misogynist nature - is that based on your personal experience or your college studies or clinical papers?

[maxen]

do BPD women have a misandric nature?

or is it that people with BPD of either gender objectify their partners for profoundly based emotional reasons?  (and what of gay and lesbian pwBPD?) i apprised my stbxw that i was not merely an emotional punching bag whose purpose in life was to serve as a thing on which she worked out her issues. she left me.

[Turkish]

do BPD women have a misandric nature?

or is it that people with BPD of either gender objectify their partners for profoundly based emotional reasons?  (and what of gay and lesbian pwBPD?) i apprised my stbxw that i was not merely an emotional punching bag whose purpose in life was to serve as a thing on which she worked out her issues. she left me.

My uBPDx does. It is subtle, but there. In the two individual therapy sessions she had with my T (the family counselor she abandoned me to in order to "fix" me), she admitted that she had a hard time seeing him. He asked if it was because he was a man. She replied, yes, I don't trust men. This is the one thing he shared with me.

Then a whole lot of devaluations and comments over our 6 year r/s made sense. I also have seen signs of this devaluation of males towards S4. She loves him to death, but she things all of the men in her life have let her down (her father, her brothers, ME), haven't taken care of her properly, or themselves. So if she keeps searching, she will find The One. Even though she found The One before me, but he cheated on her (she never said this, but I rethought the story and this was obvious) and left her feeling devastated and near suicidal.

[shesread]

This is based on experience, working with a therapist ... . and digging through clinical research.

You make the point that all BPD men have a misogynist nature - is that based on your personal experience or your college studies or clinical papers?

Fair point. Mostly experience and some papers, albeit the research for males suffering from BPD is light. Unfortunately, a lot of guys with BPD have been misdiagnosed as sociopaths. There's a great article in Psychology Today about it (posted below). But that makes the clinical research light, so you have to resort to therapy, experience and writings from experienced therapists (i.e. other blogs) to get a better picture of male BPD.

I think some of the other posters are on to something. It's about blaming their partner for their inner turmoil, which can come across as man or woman-hating. I've also heard people make the point that BPD might be an extreme form of PTSD. A lot of the people suffering from BPD were abused by a BPD parent. If you're a guy and were abused by your mom, it's fair to say that you might have to deal with some misogynistic tendencies. But, every BPD male i encountered admitted or demonstrated some level of mysogyny (some were better than others). It might have been because of their fear of abandonment, so they felt the need to try to beat the women down around them. Maybe if they had been actively seeking treatment for BPD, they wouldn't come across that way.

"Rex Cowdry, MD, the former acting deputy director of the National Institute of National Health, says, "A hallmark trait of BPD, the inability to manage inner feelings, is just as present in the male population, but is often exhibited in spousal abuse or other violent acts rather than the self-directed anger more often seen in women."

Both men and women can express their fear of abandonment as physically aggressive rage toward the "cause" of their distress. However, men's level of violence is more lethal. A perceived betrayal or a real or imagined act of abandonment may trigger acting out activities such as kicking down a door, forcing sexual activity, blocking the partner's escape, and threatening the partner with a weapon. Some are involved in controlling and stalking behaviors such as bugging phones, installing secret cameras, and hiring private detectives.

This aggression often results in a misdiagnosis of antisocial personality disorder (sociopath) or, in adolescents, a conduct disorder. As a result, they don't get the right treatment."

www.psychologytoday.com/blog/stop-walking-eggshells/201104/borderline-personality-disorder-in-men-overlooked-misdiagnosed


Now, having said that... . not everyone with BPD is violent. Like any other disease there are degrees of severity.


Of course, my blog wasn't intended to explain BPD. It was written to help people identify or explain a crazy-making relationship with a BPD male. I wrote it the way my therapist taught me to identify these people, by paying attention to the way they make you feel. It's just a different spin on identifying a toxic, potential BPD relationship.

And, I do feel people gain something from it -- if just not their self-confidence and knowledge that they're not to blame for their exBPD's treatment of them.

[Skip]

Hi shesread,

Thanks for stopping by and sharing.

I read your blog article which I'll summarize the intro and headings below.

I’ve been working on this article for a long time now, really taking inventory of my experiences with men suffering from Borderline Personality Disorder. Because I was raised to be the perfect co-dependent companion to a very Borderline woman, I’ve had a long, sorted history of friendships and romantic trysts with Borderline individuals.

If you really want to know if someone is BPD, pay attention to the way he makes you feel.

1. You feel like you’re in a movie.

2. You feel confused.

3. You feel manipulated, controlled and used.

4. You feel rejected, unloved and undesirable.

5. You feel crazy.

6. You feel empty.

I have two questions.

A. Can or should we diagnose another person based on how we feel?  Isn't BPD really about their lifelong emotional volatility and fears?

B. The six feelings you describe sound very much like how a pwBPD would describe the way a failing relationship feels to them.  If my ex girlfriend had these feeling would that mean I am borderline?

• 1. You feel like you’re in a movie.

• 2. You feel confused.

• 3. You feel manipulated, controlled and used.

• 4. You feel rejected, unloved and undesirable.

• 5. You feel crazy.

• 6. You feel empty.

I agree with your premise that if a relationship makes you feel this way, you really need to make a change.  But the fault may be as much us as the other person.

I noticed that you claim to have been in many relationships with unhealthy people and that you were raised in an unhealthy home that made you co-dependent.  Codependents tend to be in relationships that they value more highly than the partner values it - does that influence how the other party treats us?

If you really want to know if someone is BPD, pay attention to the way he makes you feel.

Isn't the real work figuring out who we are?  Say, for example, if we had several relationships with unhealthy people - why?

[shesread]

Of course it's all about the inner work. Writing this article was part of that. It took me an embarassingly loong time to realize what was happening. And not all of my relationships have been toxic -- but there was a pattern: idolization and devaluation. And when it happened for the last time about two years ago, it sort of made me very aware of the choices i had been making.

Yes, I had to recover as a codependent, although I'm only slightly codependent -- and with BPD sufferers particularly. And i'll explain why. My mom, whom I love dearly, is undiagnosed BPD. It took a good therapist to point this out to me. Growing up she idolized me. I was her little, wise buddha child -- and she confided in me about everything, even really inappropriate things. I became her therapist, but she seemed unable to return the favor. When I was a pre-teen, I began to realize that she said and did things that hurt my feelings without knowing it. She would talk about how pretty my friends were or that my father thought i was ugly and was confused if it upset me. In fact, I learned not to show my feelings and suppress them. I was rewarded for being her therapist, but if i showed a vulnerablity I got skewered. Then my parents divorced when I was in college. My mom had become completely deranged in a way I never experienced before. She had my father arrested just to get him out of the house. She let my younger sister become truent (and she dropped out of school) and when I can home for the summer told me I had to drop out of college even though i had a full scholarship, edited my college newspaper and was a teaching and research assistant as an undergrad! She made me feel like I was a deliquent. After the divorce and she calmed down, I moved with her and my sister to Austin, where we resumed our codependent relationship. I was her therapist and she was more than kind to me. When I got into grad school at NYU and USC, she got very angry and called me a 'loser,' then changed her tune a few weeks later after she got some peer feedback that getting into NYU was a good thing. But I couldn't afford it, so I went to UT-Austin, where I was awarded a fellowship. She was happy that i was still around. But right after grad school, I was offered an internship on my favorite television show in LA... . so I moved. She seemed okay with me leaving and I thought everything was fine... . until I started experiencing anxiety out here. i had just moved, taken out some loans to do it... . and moving can be traumatic, so I called her to get some moral support... . Sensing my weakness, she attacked me, told me horrible things, called me fat and ugly and tragic and that she expected me to kill myself one day. All because I was having anxiety.

Things are much better with her now, but I had to go with a coodependent withdrawel, which lead me to my last BPD entanglement about two years ago. It's the intesity of the BPD idolization that i missed, that I was (or am) "addicted" too. That's why I let these three men into my life. I wasn't aware of what was happening.

What drew me to each of these men was that they idolized me like my mother. It was the way I was taught I was lovable.

----

BPD is almost impossible to diagnose. If you're a layman and trying to apply the DSM symptoms to someone... . it can be tricky. A lot of people have emotional problems, but don't have an actual personality disorder. And when you're dating and getting to know people, it's not like you're looking at a checklist. And just because someone is suicidal or feels empty or is insecure -- doesn't been they're BPD.

When you're out there meeting people, pay attention not only to the data, but the way you feel. I wrote this article, because the DSM criteria didn't help me identify these people, because you don't know someone's history when you meet them -- and not all BPDs cut or attempt suicide. It's about the idolization and devaluation. The make you FEEL one way and then another without reason. That's why I urge people to pay attention to the way people make you feel.

If you made someone else feel that way (and I mean all of those feelings), then, yeah, i'd say there's something very wrong with your behavior, be it BPD or worse. I've definately rejected a few people and broken some hearts, but I've never done that kind of damage. We're not talking about mere rejection or heartbreak; we're talking about emotional warfare. If you don't see that in my blog post, I should rewrite it :P


Here's the DSM criteria:

BPD is manifested by a pervasive pattern of instability of interpersonal relationships, self-image, and affects, and marked impulsivity beginning by early adulthood and present in a variety of contexts, as indicated by five (or more) of the following:

Frantic efforts to avoid real or imagined abandonment. Note: Do not include suicidal or self-mutilating behavior covered in (5).

--A pattern of unstable and intense interpersonal relationships characterized by alternating between extremes of idealization and devaluation. This is called "splitting."

--Identity disturbance: markedly and persistently unstable self-image or sense of self.

--Impulsivity in at least two areas that are potentially self-damaging (e.g., spending, sex, substance abuse, reckless driving, binge eating). Note: Do not include suicidal or self-mutilating behavior covered in (5).

--Recurrent suicidal behavior, gestures, or threats, or self-mutilating behavior.

--Affective instability due to a marked reactivity of mood (e.g., intense episodic dysphoria, irritability, or anxiety usually lasting a few hours and only rarely more than a few days).

--Chronic feelings of emptiness.

--Inappropriate, intense anger or difficulty controlling anger (e.g., frequent displays of temper, constant anger, recurrent physical fights).

--Transient, stress-related paranoid ideation or severe dissociative symptoms.

[sharlock]

Shereads, 

  I found your blog very helpful as there seems to be a lot of information on women with BPD and what that relationship looks/feels like.  Being that I'm "just friends" with my BPD male I couldn't relate to the frequent comments men make about BPD women; especially, the comments on the great sex! There is nothing overtly sexual about my relationship with my friend but it's very emotional and spiritual.  I've never met a man so open, vulnerable, kind, gentle, and thoughtful! Although, he'll often cross boundaries and say/express feelings that you would share with a lover, but then often he will rescind and state were "just friends".  He is my best friend, and I'm working on setting boundaries because I want to keep him as a friend. It's appealing in the sense to think a man could love you without wanting to be sexual!  I have a history of being in abusive relationships (physically, sexually, and emotionally).  So being friends with him has been healing. However, morally I'm conflicted because we're both married.  I'm working with a good therapist the past month.  It's going to be a lot of work to understand how I ended up in this place to begin with. However, like I said I'm determined to get better.  Thank you again for your blog, I could relate to a lot of it!  It validated what I'm feeling. 

[Findingmysong723]

Shereads, 

  I found your blog very helpful as there seems to be a lot of information on women with BPD and what that relationship looks/feels like.  Being that I'm "just friends" with my BPD male I couldn't relate to the frequent comments men make about BPD women; . 

I agree, I wish there was more information on Borderline Men, would be very interested in reading since I feel the behavior in men is similar as women with BPD but can be very different as well!

[shesread]

Shereads,  

 I found your blog very helpful as there seems to be a lot of information on women with BPD and what that relationship looks/feels like.  

Thanks! That's why I shared my experiences... . for those who are experiencing similar relationships.

Yeah. I've had two emotional affairs with BPD men. They idolized me, treated me like a Lady on a white horse... . just be careful. They have a hard time  turning that promise of courtly love into anything more... . And imagine what your friend's wife is going through. Her husband is emotionally involved with another woman. That's got to be heartbreaking for her.

One of my old BPD friends would use our friendship as leverage over girls he was dating. One of his girlfriends got so paranoid that she started calling me, even though I lived in a different state and we didn't know each other. He, experiencing a lack of empathy or empathic dysfunction, told her that he loved me, even though we had never actually dated (nor did he ever have any intention of dating me). She seemed so confused and torn-up over it. I was dating someone else at the time and told her there was nothing going on. That we were fond of each other and had made-out years ago, but that was it.

I wasn't the only girl that he carried on like that with... . so just be careful. The thing that stings about these relationships so much is how sweet, spiritual and dreamy they seem in the beginning. The closer you get or try to get, the more likely you are to discover that it wasn't as sweet as it seemed -- and they're not quite the person they presented themselves to be.

Same goes with that friend I carried a romantic friendship with from age 19 to 33! He was extremely courtly with me, used me as emotional leverage against other woman... . but would reject me cruelly when I tried to get closer, or draw healthy boundaries. But then chase after me, if I pulled away. Push-and-Pull. Idolization and devaluation. It's what makes BPD relationships distinct from other Cluster B personality disorders.

It's like that lyric from Bjork's "Possibly Maybe": "Where's that love you promised me? i'm exhausted. Leave me alone."

Really sweet, amazing, stand-up dudes don't have emotional affairs with other women. Just remember that how you get into a relationship is often and indicator of how it will end. Past actions are the best predictor of future behavior.

Anyhoo, you're in therapy... . so I'm not worried about you :P

Thanks!

[maxsterling]

how we

B. The six feelings you describe sound very much like how a pwBPD would describe the way a failing relationship feels to them.  If my ex girlfriend had these feeling would that mean I am borderline?

• 1. You feel like you’re in a movie.

• 2. You feel confused.

• 3. You feel manipulated, controlled and used.

• 4. You feel rejected, unloved and undesirable.

• 5. You feel crazy.

• 6. You feel empty.

I have the same thought.  My dBPDgf has said the exact same things about me - that at first she thought I was perfect, but now I make her feel confused, manipulated, controlled, rejected, crazy, and empty.  Of course, my jaw drops to hear that out of her, but in her BPD reality, I don't doubt that she does feel that way.

[shesread]

how we

B. The six feelings you describe sound very much like how a pwBPD would describe the way a failing relationship feels to them.  If my ex girlfriend had these feeling would that mean I am borderline?

• 1. You feel like you’re in a movie.

• 2. You feel confused.

• 3. You feel manipulated, controlled and used.

• 4. You feel rejected, unloved and undesirable.

• 5. You feel crazy.

• 6. You feel empty.

I have the same thought.  My dBPDgf has said the exact same things about me - that at first she thought I was perfect, but now I make her feel confused, manipulated, controlled, rejected, crazy, and empty.  Of course, my jaw drops to hear that out of her, but in her BPD reality, I don't doubt that she does feel that way.

I'm curious, How did she make you feel?

And were her emotions steady and a reaction to your actions or behavior... . or were they just random... . and had little or nothing to do with your behavior? If you read the blog post, you will see that these feelings are caused by being exposed to the emotional turbalance of being close to someone with BPD. Listing out the points without the explanations behind them, is like taking a quote out of context.

You can spin anything anyway you like without context.

If you're nonBPD and dating someone nonBPD, you won't be going through all these stages of emotional chaos, even if you break up and are heartbroken. It's just not the same.

Someone who is BPD will experience emotional disturbances no matter who they date and how nice and normal they are. Unless the BPD party is getting treatment and is aware of their condition.

Please read the actual post. That list our-of-context isn't very useful. And very misleading.

[shesread]

how we

B. The six feelings you describe sound very much like how a pwBPD would describe the way a failing relationship feels to them.  If my ex girlfriend had these feeling would that mean I am borderline?

• 1. You feel like you’re in a movie.

• 2. You feel confused.

• 3. You feel manipulated, controlled and used.

• 4. You feel rejected, unloved and undesirable.

• 5. You feel crazy.

• 6. You feel empty.

I have the same thought.  My dBPDgf has said the exact same things about me - that at first she thought I was perfect, but now I make her feel confused, manipulated, controlled, rejected, crazy, and empty.  Of course, my jaw drops to hear that out of her, but in her BPD reality, I don't doubt that she does feel that way.

Not to belabor the point, but someone with BPD is going to have emotional disturbances that have nothing to do with you (even if they blame you for it). My blog post is not intended for someone with BPD. It's intended for nonBPDs who are having trouble coping with a relationship with a BPD male. If you read each section, it goes through how their actions and behavior might confuse and distress you. It about a valid, very real external reason for your emotional distress caused by being hurt and emotionally abused by someone else (whether they mean to hurt you or not).

Someone suffering from BPD (and is untreated) is going to blame their feelings on their partner no matter how nice and accomodating their partner is. So, it's no suprise that your BPDgf would claim that she experienced those feeling with you. She probably experiences them all the time -- and they certainly probably have very little to do with how you treat her.

But, again, I didn't write that article for someone with BPD. If they're untreated, they project all their problems onto you anyways -- and use lists like these as weapons. It's just projection and paranoid ideation. And I cannot control who reads the blog. It's for non

Now, if you were demonstrating the kinds of behavior I described in the post that caused her to ver validly feel those emotions... . then, yeah, there's something very wrong with your behavior. But my guess is that she's just blaming you for her inner turmoil. Something I talk about in the post.

One of the reasons a nonBPD will start to experience emotional distress when involved with a BPD is "the closer you become to someone with BPD, the more chaos you’ll experience... . They make you feel crazy; because they’re crazy. Being around borderlines will make you question your perception, because their perception of reality so is warped."

So, I'm curious. Did you find your BPD relationship emotionally distressing? Did it confuse you at times? My guess is that you've experienced a good portion of these feelings.