I may never learn

[Verbena]

After a very difficult year with my DD28 which included a ton of drama and then about five months of almost no contact, I vowed to keep my communication with her on a superficial level.  And for the most part I've done that.  As long as the conversation is about her and how awesome she is, things are great. 

But sometimes I forget.  I forget that if I discuss normal issues with her, she will eventually use what I say to come after me.  That's what happened today.  It's just unreal how she manipulates what I say and uses it against me.  Then she started up again about Facebook and the fact that I don't comment on her or post pictures of her and her husband "to show my love for my family" even though I know it would mean a lot to her.  She said I was the most stubborn person she has ever known.  Against my better judgment I explained (again)  that she is the reason I stopped FB activity although I still have it and do look at it.

She seems not to remember the many times she was offended by my posts, the many times she tried to tell me when and how to comment to posts, the time she had a meltdown when I changed my profile picture to a little girl with a pit bull  (I love pit bulls.)  I didn't bring all those times up, but she thinks she only got upset with me about FB "one time a year and a half ago" and she promises never to do that again.

She basically hung up on me while I was trying to change the subject and then sent a tacky text later that I ignored.  We're supposed to go together  to a bridal shower out of town tomorrow, and I am NOT going to allow her to hold me hostage in the car with anymore of this nonsense. 

Our objective is to better understand the struggles our child faces and to learn the skills to improve our relationship and provide a supportive environment and also improve on our own emotional responses, attitudes and effectiveness as a family leaders

[Thursday]

Aw rats. Sorry you got involved in this conversation.

Sad that it looks like you still need to keep things less connected. Sounds like you do though.

Do you feel like she might change a bit if you can keep things at the lower key for long enough? I've found it helpful to sort of look at my BPDSD22 like she is actually wounded and I'm waiting for the wound to heal. Lower contact helps me to keep this perspective for myself.

Frustrating that you are having to do ALL of the work, isn't it?

Here's to hoping that your DD may someday take responsibility for SOMETHING when it has to do with her relationship with you.

thursday

[crazedncrazymom]

I think you know this but we just need to be very clear about validating our kids feelings without defending ourselves or pointing out that we are the wronged party.  Oh I'm sorry you feel hurt honey.  I just don't have time for facebook.  Would you mind emailing those pics to me?  I'd love to have them.  I know how hard it is to constantly put your feelings aside.  It is so tiresome to not be able to just be yourself without worrying about setting off world war 3569. 

[six]

I like the title of this post bec I feel like no matter how many tools I gain  there is a part of me that never stops wanting to believe that my son could have a normal relationship with me.  as soon as I go down that path, the drama begins.

I am working really hard on letting go of my illusions but they are pretty stubborn and want to hold on to me.

[Verbena]

I did try to validate her feelings by saying I realize she is offended by the FB thing and that offending her is what I want to avoid.  She is still angry about it, though. 

Yes, I do feel that keeping the contact minimal and superficial will help. I made a list last night of the topics that need to be taboo.  Basically, it's everything except her life, what she's doing, what she's feeling. 

I have been hanging on to illusions also that things can be normal between us, that she actually has an interest in me as I do in her.  But she doesn't.  It must be about her or there be something in it for her. 

I worried for nothing about the trip we were supposed to take today.  She says she sick and can't go which is what usually happens. 

Thank you for the replies.

[pessim-optimist]

It is so tiresome to not be able to just be yourself without worrying about setting off world war 3569. 

 How very true!

I am glad that today was stress free for you, Verbena... .

I understand what you are saying about wanting that normal relationship and forgetting, and then having a rude awakening... .

It's partly because our children can sometimes act completely normal, and it tends to trick us. Partly it's just our desire for what a normal relationship is... .

On the other hand - you are learning, give yourself some credit for that. Look at all the times when you are able to navigate the maze successfully. Measuring your progress by the occasional blow-up is doing yourself a big disservice. 

[vivekananda]

I did try to validate her feelings by saying I realize she is offended by the FB thing and that offending her is what I want to avoid.  She is still angry about it, though. 

Ah Verbena it is a difficult thing to try to have a relationship with our adult girls, isn't it? I can hear how tired you are of the same old story. It would be good to know how to break that cycle eh?

These are things that I have learnt. Never start a validating response with the word 'I'. As soon as I say the word 'I' it makes the topic about me. That is invalidating. If I was to try to validate her feelings, I would try to say something like: "you are angry and are offended by what I have done/didn't do." That tells her you hear how she feels. You could say, "I am sorry you feel that way, I do not want to offend you."etc

Have you seen this? Fruzzetti, Alan Ph D: Validation  “Encouraging Peace in a BPD Family” Fruzzetti explains the differences between validating and invalidating responses and BPD, and why it can be so hard to do. I found it very helpful.

https://bpdfamily.blogspot.com.au/2013/06/validation-encouraging-peace-in-BPD.html

Our adult girls have taken a lifetime to reach where they are now, there's no quick fix for us. My dd is 33 and we have no real relationship and very limited contact.

take care,

Vivek 

[Verbena]

It's partly because our children can sometimes act completely normal, and it tends to trick us.

This is a true statement.  In text messages, it's easier to remember this truth and choose my words carefully.  I usually end up deleting more than I send.  In phone conversations  (we don't see each other often face to face), it's much harder.  Many times I hang up wishing I had said much less. 

DD and I agree on the political and social issues we were discussing yesterday.  She knows my beliefs are grounded in my faith and that I don't buy into the notion that if the world thinks it's okay, then maybe it really is.  While claiming to agree with me, she managed to twist it all around and make me look like a bad person for wanting to state my views. 

The bottom line is this:  Any topic of conversation that isn't somehow making her look better or feel better about herself doesn't really interest her for long.  It MUST be about her, either directly or indirectly.

We could have such a good relationship if she would allow it, but she won't and probably never will.  I just have to accept that. 

[suchsadness]

It's partly because our children can sometimes act completely normal, and it tends to trick us.

This is a true statement.  In text messages, it's easier to remember this truth and choose my words carefully.  I usually end up deleting more than I send.  In phone conversations  (we don't see each other often face to face), it's much harder.  Many times I hang up wishing I had said much less. 

The bottom line is this:  Any topic of conversation that isn't somehow making her look better or feel better about herself doesn't really interest her for long.  It MUST be about her, either directly or indirectly.

We could have such a good relationship if she would allow it, but she won't and probably never will.  I just have to accept that. 

This is also true for my BPD dd36 - and especially about it being easier to communicate in other ways than on the phone.  Just the tone of voice she takes with me and I'm sure my voice are triggers that set each of us right from the beginning... . unless the topic is about how I can help her or about her children.  And I'm sure I have deleted more words than I have actually sent over the years of email/text communication.  Talk about walking on eggshells!

I think you have it right that there are things we just have to "radically" accept.  Hang in there... .    

[Verbena]

Vivek,

I did watch the video about validation, which I really struggle with.  Lots of information to think about there. I especially like the analogy of the thermostat. 

suchsadness,

I find that I walk on eggshells with my DD as much as I ever did because it's the only way to avoid conflict.  Yet, there's still conflict. 

Just the tone of voice she takes with me and I'm sure my voice are triggers that set each of us right from the beginning... .

I found this comment really interesting.  My DD has not raged at me in person or on the phone for over a year.  In some e-mails/texts last summer, most definitely.  But not on the phone or in person.  I believe she has stopped this (with me anyway) because to yell and scream as she has done so many times in the past would validate my belief that she has issues/is out of control/needs help, etc. 

She and her husband are adamant that there is no BPD and nothing whatsover is wrong.  She is not accountable, she is the victim, and I was completely off-base to ever suggest it despite a diagnosis ten years ago (which she claims never happened) and classic BPD behavior for most of her life. 

So she has learned to restrain herself when angry with me. Instead of raging, she has taken on this very odd tone/demeanor.  It's sort of a professional-sounding voice as if she's interviewing someone she has great distaste for.  It's condescending and haughty and superior.  It's like she doesn't really know me; I'm a stranger.  I'm glad she has learned to control the raging (at least with me), but she seems to think as long as she's not screaming it, the words don't really matter.  She's not raging, just expressing herself so it's all good. 

suchsadness, is your DD jealous of your love for your grandchildren?  I am already seeing that being the scenario when my DD has kids. 

[suchsadness]

My dd doesn't seem to be jealous of her children - in fact it is almost opposite of that.  She put a lot of effort into building a relationship between them and me... . and now seems to use them as pawns to hurt me by taking them away whenever she decides to go no contact!      In one of her latest texts she was mad at me because I sent them a valentine treat to there home - where their father has custody - and she accused me of going behind her back with her ex to get to her children.  She told me to get an attorney if I want to see them.  Now I heard through the grapevine that she told her ex "my mom is going to take you to court".  WTH?

She started putting her oldest on the phone as soon as he could talk and as time went by he became the one conversing with me most and she backed away until the last few years with skyping or doing face time it is now all the boys and she won't even talk to me or let me see her on the screen.  It is quite bizarre!  We mostly text or email except if she wants to rage at me then she will use the phone.

Our objective is to better understand the struggles our child faces and to learn the skills to improve our relationship and provide a supportive environment and also improve on our own emotional responses, attitudes and effectiveness as a family leaders

[suchsadness]

Correction - my dd rages at me via email or text too, but if she wants more control then she uses the phone... .