GS 's mom possible BPD , considering custody proceding

[Family Court Strategies: When Your Partner Has BPD OR NPD Traits.]

Hello all I am new here as of today and sitting so very grateful I have found this site it has opened my eyes and given me and my son C20 some hope and courage for what we are conceding doing Monday morning... . ok so a quick run down of the situation ... .

My son ( C20 ) has been in a crazy rollercoaster of a relationship on and off for the last 6 yrs he thankfully never married her was engaged but never made it to D-Day anyway... . he has a child (D3) that has lived with him since birth... . except when his mom has an episode and decides she is taken him other then these episodes she may see him a couple hours a month, only when she wants to hurt C20 on use D3 in some way she is angry due to C20 finally meeting a new GF has finally realized he can't fix whats wrong or save the relationship has let go and moved on meaning he is no longer waiting for EX to come back ... . She demanded we give here tax money ( she has never had a job or supported D3 in anyway) or she is taken him and we will never see him again... . so we went yesterday and spoke to L for the first time he wants C20 to file for full custody but warns of the impending nasty wrath EX is going to unleash ... . C20 is afraid of causing more damage to D3  who at 3yrs is already repeating EX's nasty verbal and mimicking her actions so many different concerns and 6 yrs worth of more story ... . that I have wisely been documenting where D3 is concerned ... . emails, text, VM ect ... . L is very happy with this and intends to use all ammo C20 just can't decide what is best for D3 ... any advice good or bad would be greatly appreciated and all questions are welcome thank you all

K2 

[K2]

Hello all I am new here as of today and sitting so very grateful I have found this site it has opened my eyes and given me and my son C20 some hope and courage for what we are conceding doing Monday morning... . ok so a quick run down of the situation ... .

My son ( C20 ) has been in a crazy rollercoaster of a relationship on and off for the last 6 yrs he thankfully never married her was engaged but never made it to D-Day anyway... . he has a child (D3) that has lived with him since birth... . except when his mom has an episode and decides she is taken him other then these episodes she may see him a couple hours a month, only when she wants to hurt C20 on use D3 in some way she is angry due to C20 finally meeting a new GF has finally realized he can't fix whats wrong or save the relationship has let go and moved on meaning he is no longer waiting for EX to come back ... . She demanded we give here tax money ( she has never had a job or supported D3 in anyway) or she is taken him and we will never see him again... . so we went yesterday and spoke to L for the first time he wants C20 to file for full custody but warns of the impending nasty wrath EX is going to unleash ... . C20 is afraid of causing more damage to D3  who at 3yrs is already repeating EX's nasty verbal and mimicking her actions so many different concerns and 6 yrs worth of more story ... . that I have wisely been documenting where D3 is concerned ... . emails, text, VM ect ... . L is very happy with this and intends to use all ammo C20 just can't decide what is best for D3 ... any advice good or bad would be greatly appreciated and all questions are welcome thank you all

K2 

[livednlearned]

Hi K2,

I'm glad you found the site. Your son is lucky that you're involved and trying to help do what's best for D3. And it's good that you have made contact with a lawyer, and even better that you've been documenting. Your L is right that there will likely be a nasty backlash when your son files for custody, but it's important to forge ahead despite how D3's mother reacts. Learn as much as you can about how things work where you live, and keep documenting.

An excellent book for you and your son to read is Splitting by Bill Eddy. It's specifically about divorcing a BPD or NPD spouse -- Eddy was a family therapist before he became a family law attorney, and he focuses specifically on high-conflict divorces. Even though your son wasn't married to his son's mother, the book will be really helpful to you. It helped many of us learn how the court system works, and how BPD works when it mixes with the court. Here's a link:

https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=47078.0

It's worrying that D3 is mimicking her mother's behavior -- she is young, though, and it's possible she can be exposed to healthier behavior if she is not with her mother all the time. Getting custody, even 50/50, will help her experience a more stable environment, if only half the time.

How much time does D3 spend with your son? How long has it been since he split with his gf? Is he living with you?

[marbleloser]

You've done good so far. Keep it up! She doesn't stand much chance of custody with her track record. I'd refuse to hand over the child to her. By law,without a court order stating custody,your son doesn't have to give her the child back at any time. Keep all of her texts and emails and record any time she is around.

Edit: This is assuming his name is on the birth certificate,since they were never married.

[Matt]

K2,

First just a hint about how we use abbreviations here... . I use "S15" to mean my 15-year-old son, and D17 for my 17-year-old daughter.  You could say S20 for your son and GS3 for your grandson.

If I understand right, your grandson lives with your son and you most of the time?  But when his mom comes, sometimes she takes him for a while?

And there's no court order in place yet - nothing saying who has custody?

One thing that's very encouraging is that you have been documenting - that often makes a big difference.  (It did in my case.)  Do you have a record of when your grandson has been with your son and you, over the last three years (or at least maybe the past year or so)?  And what kind of documentation do you have of how your grandson has been treated by his mom?

As far as what's best for your grandson, there's another book that might help you and your son think that through:  "Understanding The Borderline Mother" by Christine Lawson.  It's kind of expensive and hard to find, and frankly pretty depressing, but it's based on a ton of research, and it will help you both see how his mom's psychological problems are likely to affect him long-term.  I realize there's no diagnosis yet - that may be possible to fix during the legal process - but if her behavior seems to be BPDish it may apply pretty well.

What is the next step in the legal process?

[K2]

GS3 and S20 both live here with my Husband and I, he has since Birth but mom has lived with us on and off since birth.  My husband and I have been married for 26 yrs and we are both the Boi's of all of our children and S20 has very strong family values and was determined to fix his relationship and keep his family together so he keep trying to work things out and let her come back more times then I can even begin to count.

Things would go well for a little while and then it would start over ... . if S20 got out of her sight she would flip out start screaming and crying doing the whole you don't love me ... . on more then one occasion I personally witnessed he pat him down when he came home from work because she was convinced he was cheating ... . which he  never has not even once but Ex cheated on a regular basis... . my whole though was transference classic blame you for what I have done thing ... . but last December she try to attempt suicide because he left for an hour with his sibling and there for he didn't love her and wasn't spending enough time with her that was my S20 final straw ... . they had been back together 8mts this last time in which time she had taken off on 4 different occasions for more then a week at a time  and he had no idea where she was ... .

I am very concerned about GS3's behavior and the damage all of this is doing and has already done and we have no idea how to handle the undoing . My son was determined to keep GS3's relationship with mom even if they were not together but she make every excuse to no pick him up or see GS3 ... . I for one feel like it is for the best we no longer tell GS3 that mom is coming we don't mention Mom at all unless GS3 asked we don't mention simply because it is heart braking to see him stand in the window and wait and ask where she is so for the last 3 mts  Mom has shown up on 3 different occasions the longest she kept GS3 was a little over 24 hrs ... . before she called at a little after midnight to tell us the police where at her house and she was bringing GS3 home ... . come to find out the police were there because she had left after Gs3 went to sleep and got caught trying to sneak back in the house because Gs3 had woken every one up crying because she was gone ... showed up here a 1:30 am with a car load of guys and GS3 (no car seat ) and cold, scared... so yes this last 2 weeks has brought everything to a head with S20 and he is ready to take the next step just afraid mom is going to take GS3 and take off for parts unknown ... . which she threated to do day before yesterday unless S20 pays her money from Income tax. ( mom has never had a job or supported Gs3 in any way )  she believe she is entitled to money and anything else she wants simply because she is GS3 mother ... . but as far as GS3's acting out and smart month is the only nice way to put it... . he was getting better until last week when he went to her house came home worse then ever ... . has the idea he can do and say what ever as long as it is followed with a sorry ... . will tell you he is sorry and he want do it again while he is still doing what ever it is he is apologizing for , S20 is frustrated told me yesterday he feels like he has no control over GS3 at all time out has very little effect 5 mins after time is up he is right backing what ever he was doing time for with a shrug and a sorry.  

Yes he is on the birth certificate Had DNA done when GS3 was a week old ... . have been documenting since ... she lied about birth control I have documents in her hand writing detailing her plan to trap S20 because " He is such a good guy he will take care of me and want leave me if we have a BABY "

[Matt]

So here are just some brainstorms - not saying it's right - others can share their ideas, and of course you need to get legal advice too... .

First, I would suggest that nobody - not you, not your son or your husband, and especially not your grandson - ever be alone with this woman, without a non-family adult third party present.  Many of us have experienced violence and false accusations;  if she were to accuse your son, for example, of hurting her or threatening her, he will be considered guilty til proven innocent, and it's very hard to prove innocence.  All she has to do is call 911 and say, "S20 hit me!" or "S20 threatened to kill me!", and they will assume she is telling the truth, and all your lives will get much more complicated.  The only way to prevent that is to never be alone with her, even for a minute.

The best way to communicate with someone like this is by e-mail, because it leaves a paper trail.  No phone or face-to-face except for emergencies.  Don't allow her to be on your property, ever.  If you need to meet, do it in a public place like a coffee shop with lots of people around, and bring a non-family adult third party.

I would also go out on the limb and suggest you end all contact between GS3 and his mother for now, til there is a court order in place and she has been diagnosed and is getting the treatment she needs.  Make it clear that this is temporary and you will move as fast as possible to restore contact, but you need to make sure GS3 will be safe before contact is restored.

A couple things might make contact with his mom safe.  Short term, supervised visits, at a facility that provides that service.  It's pretty common in situations like this - the court can tell you what options there are nearby.

The other thing that might reduce the risk of contact with his mom is if she gets diagnosed and treated.  You can file a motion with the court for both parents to get objective psych evals.  I did that and the court appointed a Ph.D. psychologist who administered the MMPI-2 (Minnesota Multiphase Personality Index) which enabled the psychologist to diagnose my wife.  Asking for both parents to be evaluated will seem fair, and most people learn something from the results - nobody's perfect - so the key is to react wisely and not defensively to the results.  (My results said I am at high risk for addiction so I need to watch my drinking - who knew?)

Finally, I would suggest finding a counselor for your grandson, not because something is wrong with him - he's not the problem! - but because he is going through something very difficult, and he needs help dealing with it.  And you need the insight that a professional can offer, if she gets to know him well - it's a marathon not a sprint - not a quick fix but a long-term resource for your grandson.  I did that with my kids and it helped them a lot.

[K2]

Matt we asked L about Psych evals he response was we could request them but they are very expensive and I will have to pay for them never to told me how much but we have just begun and thank you for the wonder full idea of a third party supervised visit I hadn't though of that ... . S20 has cut all contact with her it is currently all go though her mother and my self which was work well until a couple days a go where EX hacked in to her mother email and proceeded to   pretend she was her mother the only problem was it is to easy to tell the difference  small things like one can spell where the other can't and the extremely Vulgar language was a dead give away !

The police have been involved multiple times and our small county sheriff has made the decision to not get involved when she calls demanding they come take GS3 away from S20 any more (small victory ) L is currently pull all police report involving her in all situations not just GS3 related ... . I feel we have a strong case but at the same time I know her well and she is very good at lying and manipulating plays the innocent card well and she has already  pulled the whole he abused me card 2 yrs ago sheriffs deputy just kind of cocked his head and asked her where he hit her she had no answer so no charges ... . but I have been saving every email and text and have several where she did the threating to me and S20 but I think she is delusional she claims things that are so far out of left field it is astonishing and she believes what she is saying even with proof of the lie in hand... .

The only real concern I have is her taken GS3 our county doesn't enforce the 50/50 parentage law until court ordered our only hope is the police not responding to her calls as far as her coming here L suggest an RO do to the threats against me and all of my belongings including our home where GS3 live but I don't know yet if I can do that seeing's GS3  lives here and nothing is court ordered yet that is another stop on Mondays to do list.

we have begged her to seek help of some kind S20 myself her family her response is she doesn't need help because she isn't crazy I try to explain to her that no one is saying she is crazy but sometime people need help with issues and that seeing professional doesn't mean she is just that she needed help with issues she can't handle on her own ... . yeah that didn't work but I like your idea of seeking help for GS3 I have just added that to the to do list for Monday given his age I hadn't thought to look in to that but I think it may be our saven grace with him to help undo some of what has already been done and maybe it will open her eye and get her to go as well.

[Matt]

Lawyers who don't have experience in cases like this often say psych evals aren't a good option, but in cases where one party has a psychological disorder that's the only way to establish it for sure, to the court's satisfaction.  Your lawyer's answer about that may indicate that he doesn't have experience with cases like this.

(By the way, I'm not a lawyer, and nobody here can give you legal advise.  Just sharing what we learned from our own cases and others here.)

Our custody evaluation took about six weeks and cost $5,000.  I had to pay the whole amount, but I got half of it back in the divorce settlement.  In your case I see no reason why you should have to pay it all, except maybe if Mom doesn't have any money.  It could be more - could be much more - depends on what "custody evaluation" means where you live.  Our guy talked to each parent, each kid, and a few others who knew us well, and wrote a report - $5,000 seemed pretty fair for the amount of work he did.

He also asked each of us to take the MMPI-2, which cost each of us $500 more.  That was the best money I ever spent.  I should have put that in my motion - I got lucky - the psychologist couldn't make us take those but my wife would have looked very bad if she refused.  If it had been in my motion, and then in the court order, she couldn't have refused.

One other thing that helped me a lot was depositions - a very effective way to deal with lies.  I filed another motion, to depose my wife - her lawyer responded in kind - we were both deposed (questioned under oath) for four hours each.  My wife was deposed first.  She made more than 40 false statements.  I just answered the questions truthfully and it was no big deal.  Then we had time before the trial in which to gather evidence - we could prove some of the statements were false.  That forced her attorney to tell her, "You better settle or you're going to be proved to have lied under oath.", and my wife agreed to a settlement she had rejected before.

Again, if your lawyer has experience in cases like this, he should know how to do this.  If he's never deposed anybody before, he's probably never dealt with someone like your grandson's mother - someone who says things that aren't true (and maybe believes them).

It's a great thought that she should get help, and I also tried every way I could think of to convince my wife to do that - after we separated I even talked with her family and closest friend to see if they could convince her.  But people with BPD and other psychological disorders almost never accept that they have a problem until they have no other option left.  The court even ordered my wife to get psychotherapy - she could be held in contempt or kept from seeing the kids if she doesn't do that - but she hasn't done it, even when I offered to pay for it.  After all sorts of craziness and bad consequences, being tested and diagnosed, and being ordered by the court to get help, she has never accepted that she has any problem at all or that she needs help - it's a part of the disorder, the avoidance of responsibility or the need to change.

I would suggest just leaving that issue completely alone - don't even try any more - it won't work and it might make things worse.  And the court won't like it if you try to "amateur diagnose" her - you're not objective and (I presume) not a psychologist, so the court can't give your opinion any weight no matter how right you are.  You can't say, "She has BPD." but you can bring evidence of her behavior, and maybe get psych evals.

[K2]

I understand what you are saying and your right I am not a  psychologist or in anyway qualified to diagnose and I feel like we have done everything we can to help her even her parents have tried to get her to go but your right as far as she is concerned she is right and everyone else is wrong. BTW her Parents agree with S20 and claim to be on his side but as the old saying goes Blood is thinker then water so we will see how that goes.

Well I can honesty say I sit here tonight with a whole new out look and I am so truly thankful I found this site I feel it is going to be a truly invaluable asset though this and I think we have come up with a fairly good game plan first tings first Going to call L Monday and find out what he has learned from all the reports he was having pulled today and find out if he has experience with BPD,

Then see what we can find out about supervised contact and a therapist with experience working with children with BPD parents for GS3 and check in to ordering Splitting and  An Umbrella for Alex,  GS is only 3 but maybe will help give us some insight on his POV with this whole mess,

and well just Thank You everyone for all the wonderful advice and for sharing your story's it is nice to finally realize we are not alone out here ,  from day one all S20 has wanted was to do the right thing for this beautiful little boy and he was at the point of feeling like no matter what he did it wasn't right the frustrations as truly taken a toll on him but he is seeing that there is light on the other side of this mess and that no it wasn't him like she still keeps telling him ... so if there is anything I am overlooking please point it out .

PS... Matt I really like the idea of the depositions ... . Let the chips fall where they may !

[ForeverDad]

Putting off the custody issue doesn't make things easier.  Generally there is no "right time" or "perfect moment", waiting for one just results in endless delays.  It's just delaying the inevitable.  Fortunately he has 3 years of majority parenting.  That history will mean a lot.  Sadly, courts have standard policies and orders and they usually don't stray far from them without other professionals giving input.  (In my case, my ex got standard temp custody and majority parenting time even though at that time she had a DV case pending against her and was barred from our home.)

You almost surely will need a Custody Evaluation ordered, especially if the judge is inclined to give the mother default preference.  That way a professional, usually a trained social worker or better yet an experienced psychologist, can take the necessary time to administer psychological tests, interview the parents and child, see how each parent handles their parenting and communication with the other parent, and provide a recommendation to the court.  It's not just about parenting time, it's also the issues of decision making, alienation, emotional outbursts and recurring threats to disappear with child.  A good custody evaluator can address all those issues comprehensively and prepare the information in a way acceptable to the court.

[Matt]

One strategy that seems to work for some parents is, if you are taking care of the child, and the child is doing well - he's healthy and his development is on track and he seems happy - don't be in a rush to get the custody case settled.  You do want to get temporary orders, so neither parent can take the child away.  But a final resolution might not be urgent.

The reason is that the longer you and your son are taking care of him, and GS is doing fine, the less likely the court will be to change that arrangement.  Your son can say, "GS is doing very well - why make a change?" and that is likely to be very persuasive.

So it's urgent to get temporary orders, so there is a stable, court-ordered situation, and neither parent can take the child away, but it might be best to go slow on the final settlement, so there will be a long history of the child doing well while in your son's (and your) care.  The good news is, lawyers are good and making things go slow.

[K2]

Well S20 made a decision he wants to go to court even  if to just establish a 50/50 order temporarily to stop her from being able to take him and leave the state ... . which she says she is doing in March. He doesn't care how long the rest takes as long as L can get something filed to at least give her pause on  moving half way across the country. S20 is scared to death over that possibility this is the only home GS3 has ever know, We will also be finding him a therapist S20 figures even if BPD isn't the cause or the T doesn't have experience it can still only help GS3 deal with the drama and trauma as S20 put it .

So S20 is going to give L the go ahead Monday morning. Now I have a question ... I have been saving Emails, Text, Facebook IM's the whole nine yards should I start printing them out and putting them in a folder or something or leave them be and let L do so ... . don't want anyone saying I changed anything or something stupid like that  just kind of came to mind feel like it is some thing she is guaranteed to pull ... I have been saving every message good and bad since before GS3 was born from her and her family there ALOT of them... .

ps. BPD EX called to talk to GS3 today just to say hi and tell him he couldn't come see her this weekend upset him and he hung up on her ... . kind of worried S20 but I don't know I felt like GS3 handled it well

[ForeverDad]

I am an advocate for the reasonably normal parents to seek as much time as they feel is right for their children rather than seeking only what they think they might walk out with.  In other words... . If you don't ask you won't get it, if you do ask then you might get it.

Does that make sense?  If you son currently has majority time, he should seek majority time.  Yes, he might walk out with less, but that's the court's decision, not his inaction or timidness.  This is not a time to be timid or silent.  At the same time don't appear to be blocking or unreasonable.  If your son believes mother's time should be limited, then he needs to be prepared and anxious to explain why.

Another reason to get the best possible temporary order is that we've noticed temporary order have a tendency to morph into permanent orders.  It is a poor strategy to say, I'll wait until later to get more time.  Courts will look at the temp order and if it 'seems to work' then they'll be inclined not to mess with 'what works'.

Yes, it will probably sound bad if a mother is officially limited to just a few hours at a time.  Courts generally have a minimum schedule for the non-primary parent, presuming there isn't abuse, neglect or endangerment, that is alternate weekends and an evening or overnight in between.

Your son's goal as the reasonably normal parent is to (1) seek the current proportion of parenting to remain the same or (2) if mother gets more then to have it set at no more than the non-primary parent schedule.  I can't imagine how his ex would walk out with 50/50.  Stranger things have happened, especially considering ex is a member of the unwritten preferred gender.

It sounds like even if she does get significantly greater time, she will cancel much of the parenting schedule anyway.  Be sure to document that too when it happens.

Don't leave it to the lawyer to prepare copies.  It's expensive and they're likely to make more mistakes than you would.  I found too that I wanted to proofread the motions to be sure they prepared all the claims and statements as accurately as possible.  I knew my data by heart, they didn't.

[Matt]

Well S20 made a decision he wants to go to court even  if to just establish a 50/50 order temporarily to stop her from being able to take him and leave the state ... . which she says she is doing in March. He doesn't care how long the rest takes as long as L can get something filed to at least give her pause on  moving half way across the country. S20 is scared to death over that possibility this is the only home GS3 has ever know, We will also be finding him a therapist S20 figures even if BPD isn't the cause or the T doesn't have experience it can still only help GS3 deal with the drama and trauma as S20 put it .

Seems wise to me!

Now I have a question ... I have been saving Emails, Text, Facebook IM's the whole nine yards should I start printing them out and putting them in a folder or something or leave them be and let L do so ... . don't want anyone saying I changed anything or something stupid like that  just kind of came to mind feel like it is some thing she is guaranteed to pull ... I have been saving every message good and bad since before GS3 was born from her and her family there ALOT of them... .

Ask the attorney.  Mine told me I could save a lot of money by doing everything possible myself - picking out the most revealing e-mails, writing a summary of events with dates, making copies of documents - she told me what needed to be done and I did everything possible myself rather than pay her or someone else to do it.  I think your son's attorney might tell you the same - anything you can do yourself or your son can do will save you some big bucks.

It's not just printing stuff and putting them in folders - though that may be an important part of it.  It's also picking out those that show her behavior most clearly, and putting them together as a summary, so the judge could read them in a short time and get the picture.  It's not likely the judge will read through dozens or hundreds of e-mails.  My lawyer told me "Pick out 8 or 10 or 12 at most."

ps. BPD EX called to talk to GS3 today just to say hi and tell him he couldn't come see her this weekend upset him and he hung up on her ... . kind of worried S20 but I don't know I felt like GS3 handled it well

This gets into a very important issue - not a legal issue, so you could talk about it on the "Parenting After The Split" board - but you're here so what the heck - "validating" the child's perceptions and feelings.

One of the main things adults who were raised by someone with BPD or another problem say is, it's not just the "disordered" parent who hurt them, it's the other parent too, by not doing anything to help the child feel like he's on solid ground.  The disordered parent does something that makes the child feel bad, or scared, or weak, or guilty, and the other parent - like your son - doesn't know how to deal with it, so they say, "Well maybe your mom just had a bad day." or "Well your mom loves you so I think you're just making a mountain out of a molehill." - words that invalidate the child.

Instead, what helps is to hear the child's perceptions - like "Mom doesn't care about me!" or "She loves OtherGuy more than she loves me!" or whatever - and his feelings, which he might not say out loud, but might show through crying or some other pretty clear non-verbal message.  You validate him by saying, "You don't think your Mom loves you right now." or "You're seeing her show OtherGuy she loves him but not you." - saying what the child says in different words.  You validate his feelings by putting them into words too:  "You seem really upset right now." or "You've been really quiet since you got home."

You're not telling him that his perceptions and feelings are "right" or "wrong".  You're not telling him how he feels or how he should feel.  You're just reflecting back what he is telling you, verbally or non-verbally.  It might help him open up and talk more, or at least feel accepted;  he'll know that you accept his real perceptions and feelings, so he doesn't have to tell you what you want to hear, he can tell you how it is for him, and you'll accept that.

Of course this is an ongoing thing, all through his childhood, and even as an adult.  The job's never done.  It seems to be a big factor in a child's ability to cope with an adult who acts very inappropriately;  if he doesn't get that validation, he sees himself as the problem... .

This is a good subject to explore - it's super-important - maybe good to talk about with your friends here (or on the Parenting board) and also with S20 and with GS3's counselor.  S20 is young, and a guy, and we guys aren't always very good at this stuff - he might need some coaching.

[K2]

Oh great advice ForeverDad  on the proof reading I think I will ask about that. S20 is still young he seems much older then he actually is but all of this forced him to grow up quick . I want to do everything I can for both of them but at the same time I don't want to over step my bounds, I told S20 that this is his ball game and I will stand behind him kicking and screaming if need be but he has to do this for him self and for GS3 ! I can't do it for him I can only help advice and I don't want to be a Throne in L's side but I want to know what he is doing and how he is handling things because I don't know that S20 will ask and understand all of it...   We have been talking today and have worked up a list of questions for L for our app. Monday Thanks to all of the wonderful Info and advice you guys have give We as a family have a much better understand and out look on what it is we need to do and what we want out of all of this.  I am willing to do as much leg work as is needed I have collected all of this info and know it far better then any of them would just a matter of what finding out what L wants

Matt ohhh I have never looked at it that way we have been coming at it from the other side as in trying not to cloud his judgment of her or show negativity toward her in front of him wow guess we dropped the ball on that one  we will have to sit down and talk about how we let him process and share how he is feeling ... . I hate to say this but I was proud of him today for hanging up on her ... . we didn't scold him by any means but we didn't talk to him about it either just let it go ... GS3 was upset but with in a few mins of a good hug he was ready to go back to playing worried S20 but I felt he handled it well ... . we have decided to not tell him when he is suppose to be going to see her anymore because 9 out of 10 times she is a no show and it upsets him so we just stopped telling him until  we load him up to take him over there .

[livednlearned]

FD and Matt have given you great advice -- not much to add except to ditto what FD about asking for primary custody. You may end up with 50/50, or even more, based on your documentation. And like Matt said, the longer you establish status quo and a stable environment for your GS, the more likely the court will want to keep things as is. Go ahead and file as quickly as possible -- that's all that needs to happen in order to make sure she can't leave the state with your GS. If she does leave, you will call 911 and tell them you suspect she has fled with the child. In my state, law enforcement then checks with family court to see if a custody battle is active. If it is, they will put out an amber alert. Without an active custody case, they can do nothing. So hurry on the filing, but then don't worry if things move slowly after that.

One thing that will help your GS immensely is if you learn as much as you can about validation. Matt's advice is great. I read Power of Validation, a book for parents, and it was extremely important in helping my son with behavior he picked up from his dad. Kids who have BPD parents do not get a lot of validation for their feelings, so it will help him immensely if you provide this for him. I wish I had known about it when my son was young, but I feel grateful that I learned about it at least before it was too late.

These are such hard relationships, and trying to figure out how court works can be very stressful. And expensive. Peer support from others who have been through this is priceless -- I'm glad you found this site when your GS is young, and that your son is ready to get custody. The earlier you stabilize the kids, the better off for them, but for you too -- these issues don't go away. They just get worse, so better to try and sort things out as soon as possible.

[Matt]

Do you think your son might like to join us here?

Both this "Family Law" board and the "Parenting" board might be useful to him too.

[K2]

All of the advice I have gotten has be amazing we were so lost be for I found this site I am calling it fate one of those ask and you shall receive things  

S20 has an appt with L to give him the go ahead he has alot more questions for him and a much better idea of what he wants out of this and what to expect. He knows this isn't going to be easy and honestly all of the stress from his EX has given him an Ulcer already and anxiety issues he wants me to find an experienced T  for GS3 tomorrow and start Family counseling for both of them  

I have shared everything I have learned here with S20 and my H we agree this site will be what saves S20's sanity ... . I ready through some of separation and how to brake the cycle last night and shared with him it seemed to help validate how he is feeling to asked him to join and he said he wants to ... up to now he has been reading over my shoulder for alot of this so I am letting it all sink in and hope he will join the whole thought of actually sitting down with L and saying yes do this is got kind of messed up. He knows it is the right thing ( well only thing ) to do to help them move on but the fall out anticipation is eating him up.

Had a surprise visit tonight from his Brothers  turned a business trip in to a moral support trip with a side of business it was great seeing them all together been a while think S20 really needed to have his brothers tell him they are behind him with this discussion.