Finally Leaving

[stopltracr]

It's been a long journey to get to this point but I'm finally here.  I'm not sure exactly what finally pushed me over the edge.  I've been standing there looking over it forever, but next week I'm making the jump.  We've been married for 12 years and have 2 kids.  I've used the kids as an excuse for why I stay with her.  I've been doing a lot of praying and soul searching.  Looking back at all the crazy things that have happened. 

I've got divorce papers ready to be filed April 10th, I take posession of a rental house the same day, movers are coming the morning of the 11th to get my stuff out of our house.

I have some questions for those of you that have been through this.  She started to figure out what was going on and confronted me about it last weekend.  She has been trying really hard since then to change all the things I've been asking her to change for years.  Here are my questions:

1. If I move out this weekend, before the divorce papers have been filed, what are the chances that she would get an attorney and try to file first? I'm considering this just to give the kids more time to adjust and to make it look less planned and perhaps make the transition easier on her as well.

2. Can I expect the irrational and angry behavior to surface after I tell her I'm leaving?  Should I be prepared to get all of my stuff out of the house that day?  Should I plan on trying to take the kids with me when I leave?

I'm filing for split custody which I don't think she will fight.  I got laid off in January for a couple months.  As a result, she started working again, we have to declare bankruptcy, and we are going to let our house go into foreclosure.  I think the combination of all those things has finally gotten rid of all the obstacles that were holding me back before.  Also, we don't have any real cash for her to fight anything in court.

Any advice would be greatly appreciated.

[Matt]

Why are you waiting to file?

Yes, there is the risk she could file for divorce before you do.  Where I live, it doesn't matter who files first;  if you have a lawyer, you could ask her whether it matters there.  Might be no reason to worry about it.

Your stuff... . Where I live, there's a thing called "Keeping the peace".  What you do is, go to the police (or call them) and say, "I need to get some stuff out of my house - I'm divorcing my wife - and I need an officer to keep the peace."  The officer meets you somewhere nearby, like a convenience store, and follows you to the house, and goes in with you, to make sure there is no conflict.  You can show the officer any relevant documents so he knows what the deal is.  I would suggest talking with your lawyer or the police near your home to find out how they do it there - probably similar.  Their goal is to avoid problems so they are glad to do it - they'd rather do that than have to respond to a domestic violence situation.

Irrational behavior... . No matter what you do, if your wife has behaved irrationally in the past, you can expect that to continue in the future, and probably get worse once she sees that the marriage is over.  You need to be very careful to avoid situations where she could accuse you of something;  if she calls 911 (like my wife did) and says you hurt her or threatened her, you will be considered guilty til proven innocent, so it's much better to avoid the situation.  Don't be around her without a non-family adult third party present.  All communication by e-mail which leaves a record.

The most important thing - besides avoiding false accusations - is that you handle things so you get as much alone time with the kids as possible.  Don't leave anything vague - make sure the court order is issued right away and establishes at least 50% of the kids time with you.  If there is any sign that your wife is telling them negative things about you, deal with it very quickly before it takes root.

[ForeverDad]

I filed for divorce and custody, my ex counter-filed in her response for custody too.  In court the magistrate took about 30 minutes to decide.  Ex tried to claim CPS had a case she wanted reopened against me but magistrate said then it was closed.  We had been there before the same magistrate previously, when we had separated and CPS had stood up and stated they had "no concerns" about me.  That time too it was a short hearing, magistrate had one question, "What are your work schedules?".  I said 'regular' and she said 'I work from home' even though I had a TPO and she wasn't allowed in my home.  Both times the magistrate issued the same schedule: mother/ex got temp custody and father/me got alternate weekends and an evening in between.  In 30 minutes.  Every 2 to 3 years when back in court she'd loose time or authority.  Now, some 8 years later, I have custody and majority time.  But what took her 30 minutes to get took me 8 years to correct.  (And even now, as bad as she looks to court, her current order is still better than my temporary order back during the divorce process.)

So my advice to all is to get the best temporary order possible from the very start.  Don't let an attorney tell you, ":)on't worry, keep quiet, let it slide, we'll fix it later."  'Fixes' could come at an agonizingly slow pace and 'Later' could very well be years later.

[catnap]

Any niceness on your part will not be reciprocated.  You don't have to be nasty, but you do have to be firm. 

Get anything out now that has special meaning to you if possible.  They have been known to destroy things they know hold sentimental value.  Take pictures of how the house is now to document.  Also copies of financial paperwork, social security cards, birth certificates, etc., as those are known to "disappear" also. 

Talk to your attorney about asking that you be named as primary or residential parent. 

[ForeverDad]

Any niceness on your part will not be reciprocated.  You don't have to be nasty, but you do have to be firm.

The poorly behaving parent seldom gets consequences and the properly behaving parent seldom gets credit.

Talk to your attorney about asking that you be named as primary or residential parent.

This is so true yet often minimized or even scoffed at.  On Trial Morning when after two years my ex was finally ready to settle, I stated my take-it-or-leave-it boundary was that I would be Residential Parent for School Purposes.  "Either I become RP in a settlement or we go back in and start the trial."  I was that determined.  Ex begged to stay RP.  Both lawyers scoffed at my terms, saying it didn't mean anything.  As I look back, settling then just prolonged the Day of Reckoning but at least I did become RP.  Guess what?  I had asked the school to let him stay until the end of the school year but within two months she had caused enough scenes at the school that they gave me ONE DAY to register him in my own district for the last 5 weeks of school.  Just 5 weeks left, that's how bad it was.  Oh, his grade level then?  Kindergarten.  Imagine being kicked out of kindergarten!  If I hadn't been RP then the school would have had no choice but to be stuck with her and her antics.  But they had an option with me as RP and they took it.  So yes, becoming RP really did matter!

Often fathers have a hard time getting to be RP, especially if they have less than 50% parenting since RP & majority time seem to go hand-in-hand, but you as the more reasonable and responsible parent need to do your best to have as much day-to-day authority as possible including at the schools.  Don't expect the school to stand up and go out of their way for you.  My ex's school administration said they had 'resolved' all prior conflicts with my ex when I was heading to trial and had nothing to support me, though his teacher said mother was not allowed in her classroom and she was willing to testify, yet after the big blowup they gave me a 3 page goodbye letter listing all her misdeeds throughout the school year.  Too late for trial of course.

[Matt]

Talk to your attorney about asking that you be named as primary or residential parent.

This is so true yet often minimized or even scoffed at.  On Trial Morning when after two years my ex was finally ready to settle, I stated my take-it-or-leave-it boundary was that I would be Residential Parent for School Purposes.  "Either I become RP in a settlement or we go back in and start the trial."  I was that determined.  Ex begged to stay RP.  Both lawyers scoffed at my terms, saying it didn't mean anything.  As I look back, settling then just prolonged the Day of Reckoning but at least I did become RP.  Guess what?  I had asked the school to let him stay until the end of the school year but within two months she had caused enough scenes at the school that they gave me ONE DAY to register him in my own district for the last 5 weeks of school.  Just 5 weeks left, that's how bad it was.  Oh, his grade level then?  Kindergarten.  Imagine being kicked out of kindergarten!  If I hadn't been RP then the school would have had no choice but to be stuck with her and her antics.  But they had an option with me as RP and they took it.  So yes, becoming RP really did matter!

This gets to an even bigger issue - having a clear set of objectives, as soon as possible, and working toward them.

Primary custody is a really important one, especially for dads.  It is often assumed that you don't want the kids except every other weekend, or that you aren't capable of taking care of them.  The law is neutral - it says dads and moms have to be treated equally - but there are still a lot of myths about mothers being better able to care for kids than fathers.

You can't assume that everyone involved - including the judge and even your own attorney - will get this.  You have to say, very clearly and probably many times, "I think it will be best for the kids if I have primary custody, and they see their mom regularly." or something like that.

I almost blew it.  I was so upset and confused when I separated from my wife - I was facing criminal charges because she had accused me of assault - that I didn't think clearly.  I had a criminal defense attorney but not a family law attorney.  So I signed papers saying my wife would have primary custody and I would only have the kids every other weekend.  That would have been disastrous if it hadn't got fixed.

The way I fixed it was, I was told by our marriage counselor that my wife probably had BPD, and I researched that, and I said to the court, "I need to retract what I signed because now I have new information.", and that worked.  But it was a risky thing to do - I should have said from the very start, "The kids will do better if I have primary custody, because I can provide for all their needs, and because their mom has some destructive behavior patterns which put them at big risk if they are with her too much."

It might be a good exercise to write down your objectives - what you think will be be the best outcome of the case - you can share them with us here if you want - to make sure you have them very clear in your mind, so you can state them to your own attorney and whoever else is involved, when it's appropriate.

[livednlearned]

1. If I move out this weekend, before the divorce papers have been filed, what are the chances that she would get an attorney and try to file first? I'm considering this just to give the kids more time to adjust and to make it look less planned and perhaps make the transition easier on her as well.

So she would be there, watching you move out? That will probably not go down well for you, for her, or for the kids. Not if she is BPD. In my state, filing first was important. Has your lawyer recommended that you file first? If so, it might be better to move out while she is at work. If you tell her face-to-face, have a third-party non family member there. Record the interaction if you're allowed to record in your state. Otherwise, leave her a letter when she gets home and tell her she can talk to the kids at any time (if they go with you).

2. Can I expect the irrational and angry behavior to surface after I tell her I'm leaving?  Should I be prepared to get all of my stuff out of the house that day?  Should I plan on trying to take the kids with me when I leave?

If you are afraid of her anger, plan your exit very carefully so that you protect yourself. I would plan to get everything out of the house the same day, without telling her in advance. She may destroy your things, or make it so that you need the court's intervention to get what you need. Even if she agrees to something in court, she may obstruct the order, so that you have to return to court again and again to get her to comply.

I'm filing for split custody which I don't think she will fight. 

Are you in a state where it's not impossible to get primary custody as a father? It can't hurt to file for residential parent or primary custody. It's usually best to ask for more so you have something to negotiate with, just in case it isn't likely you will get 50/50. Also, there is more to custody than just whether it is split or not. For example, where I live, there is physical custody, legal custody, visitation, and decision-making. All of those things can be treated separately. In essence, I have full custody. Legally, though, I technically have primary physical custody, primary legal custody, decision-making, and majority visitation. S12 sees his dad 16 hours a month, no overnights.

Also, we don't have any real cash for her to fight anything in court.

High-conflict divorces defy reason. What might happen is that she agrees to everything you want, but then she doesn't comply. So you end up having to go to court to file a motion for contempt. Maybe she doesn't bring the kids on exchange days. Or she takes them out of state for three weeks when it is your parenting time.

What kind of relationship does she have to the kids? What ages are the kids?

[stopltracr]

My kids are 10 and 8.  I've decided against moving out this weekend and I'm going to stick to my plan of moving out next week.  I guess during her "normal" periods I feel more compassion and that I should give her the opportunity to know what's going to happen.  I'm not sure why, I guess I don't want to feel like a bad person with how I handle the situation, especially with regards to my kids.

Right now the papers are going to be filed on the 10th and I have movers coming the 11th.  She will be at work and the kids will be at school when the movers come.  My original plan was to move out of the house on the evening of the 10th and take everything of value with me.  The movers would just be taking the furniture and things that are too big.  I also plan on having a couple friends there on the 10th.

The temporary orders state that we will have shared custody.  My attorney felt that asking for me to get primary custody would be too difficult. 

I guess part of me feels sorry for her.  I know that she is going to quickly be broke and I worry about my kids. 

I don't think that she will get too crazy just because she has been to jail before for DV and doesn't want to go back. 

So do you all feel that it would be best for me to wait until the 11th to move everything out?  I would be fine doing that but I'm just afraid that it would be too big of a shock for the kids.  I've also thought about talking to them ahead of time and telling them what was about to happen so that they would be prepared.  What are your thoughts on that?

[livednlearned]

I guess part of me feels sorry for her.  I know that she is going to quickly be broke and I worry about my kids. 

I don't think that she will get too crazy just because she has been to jail before for DV and doesn't want to go back. 

So do you all feel that it would be best for me to wait until the 11th to move everything out?  I would be fine doing that but I'm just afraid that it would be too big of a shock for the kids.  I've also thought about talking to them ahead of time and telling them what was about to happen so that they would be prepared.  What are your thoughts on that?

Your wife has been to jail for DV. For right now, you have to have more compassion for yourself than you do for her. This is the time to protect yourself, and to help your kids through a difficult transition. It is unlikely that your wife will be able to help them right now, so focus on you and the kids right now.

I strongly recommend that you move out during the day while she is at work, and do NOT tip your hand or tell her what is happening ahead of time. Go to school and talk to the family specialist or guidance counselor and tell him or her what is about to happen, that your kids might experience some challenges adjusting to the divorce. When I left, I met with the family specialist at school, and then I called my son out of class and sat down with both of them. I told S12 (9 at the time) that I trusted this person, and she was someone he could talk to if he ever felt bad during the day. She was wonderful -- she told him he could just leave the classroom and come to her office, he didn't need to say why he felt bad, and he didn't need to talk. He could play a game, or read a book, and just sit there and she would understand. Then S12 and I left and while we drove, I explained that we were moving to a new place and that we would be living there for a while. I told him my job was to protect him, and that I couldn't do that anymore. Our situation was in the red zone, so he was on the same page with me about why we were leaving.

Ask them if they have any questions for you. Reassure them that you love them. Don't tell them how your wife feels -- that's for her to do.

S12 was also seeing a therapist for psycho-educational testing, and he started seeing her. I highly recommend that you do this for your kids -- even if its just during the separation.

Think about what you want to say to them. They will be very focused on pragmatic things, like where they will keep their toothbrushes, what bus will they take to school, will they have their own rooms, etc.

Also, your lawyer. Keep an eye on him. The fact that she has a DV charge, and he felt you couldn't get primary custody? Makes me wonder about him. A lot of us tend to be passive in our relationships with BPD sufferers, and we are passive when we work with lawyers. We don't like conflict. We don't assert ourselves very well. And our kids suffer. Joint custody might be the best you can do, but BPD divorces are different than regular divorces. I'm not sure your lawyer understands this.

[ForeverDad]

Shared custody is common, that is, when considering the legal aspect when making major decisions.

But will you file to be the Residential Parent for School Purposes?  What is the parenting schedule, equal time or will you let her grab majority time?  In nearly all cases the one with majority time is also the Residential Parent.  While RP is often just to make clear which school the children attend and perhaps who the primary contact might be to the school, it can have a subtle influence on many other parenting issues.  Even if the parenting time schedule is equal, the judge may look at the RP as the one slightly more in charge even if not technically so.

[ForeverDad]

Your wife has been to jail for DV. For right now, you have to have more compassion for yourself than you do for her. This is the time to protect yourself, and to help your kids through a difficult transition. It is unlikely that your wife will be able to help them right now, so focus on you and the kids right now.

This is an important point, we try to be fair andreasonable and we actually end up being too fair and too reasonable.  Why?  Because the other parent is not going to try to be fair and reasonable.  Due to the extremes of the disordered acting-out behaviors, your spouse is more likely to be entitled, demanding, obstructive, sabotaging and emotionally all over the map.

Go to school and talk to the family specialist or guidance counselor and tell him or her what is about to happen, that your kids might experience some challenges adjusting to the divorce. When I left, I met with the family specialist at school, and then I called my son out of class and sat down with both of them. I told S12 (9 at the time) that I trusted this person, and she was someone he could talk to if he ever felt bad during the day. She was wonderful -- she told him he could just leave the classroom and come to her office, he didn't need to say why he felt bad, and he didn't need to talk.

Yes, make sure you have a good relationship with the school and are clearly an involved parent.  Be forewarned that your spouse is likely to badmouth you to everyone, including the school staff.  She will feel she has to make you look worse than her, so retaliatory DV claims and child abuse allegations are a real risk, especially at this transitional time.

Ask them if they have any questions for you. Reassure them that you love them. Don't tell them how your wife feels -- that's for her to do.

Children often don't know how to express their feelings or even aware of what to express, so the children responding "I'm okay" may not be their entire state of mind.  You want to validate their observations because a disordered parent will invalidate the children to keep them confused, dependent and accepting of slanted or twisted perceptions and demands.  Repetition of validating encouragement is essential, one sit down with the kids is not enough.

Also, your lawyer. Keep an eye on him. The fact that she has a DV charge, and he felt you couldn't get primary custody? Makes me wonder about him. A lot of us tend to be passive in our relationships with BPD sufferers, and we are passive when we work with lawyers. We don't like conflict. We don't assert ourselves very well. And our kids suffer. Joint custody might be the best you can do, but BPD divorces are different than regular divorces. I'm not sure your lawyer understands this.

I share this concern.  Your lawyer may be used to the typical deal-making and settlements of normal divorces.  However, a pwBPD will almost never willingly settle for less than what they demand.  In high conflict cases realistic settlements are rare, well, not until just before a big trial or hearing or similar event where the pressure is higher.  For example, my divorce was about two years, with my then-stbEx dragging her feet the entire time and refusing to negotiate at all except on her onerous terms.  And why not, she had a very favorable temporary order.  However, when Trial Morning finally arrived, I was greeted at the court house steps with the news she was finally ready to talk about a settlement.  Why?  She knew a trial would probably be worse for her than a settlement.

That is why your lawyer needs to be very firm and assertive.  Mounting a passive "this is how we usually do it" strategy is an invitation for delay, obstruction and sabotage from your spouse.  What do they say in football?  A team can't expect to win if they only play defense?

Splitting: Protecting Yourself While Divorcing Someone with Borderline or Narcissistic Personality Disorder by Bill Eddy & Randi Kreger - both you and your lawyer need to have and study this handbook.  Around here on the Family Law & Divorce board, it is The Book.  I believe it's also available as an eBook on Amazon too.

[marbleloser]

You really need to watch this OP. If you move out,leaving the kids behind with mom,she's (her atty at least) is going to claim you abandoned the home and family,while the house is going through foreclosure. You may lose any advantage to custody and you can bet that,during the divorce proceedings,you'll be made to keep paying the expenses for the marital home. That includes mortgage,utilities,cable,phone,internet,water,upkeep,etc.,,

This is where dads(mostly) lose everything.They move out to keep the peace,the opposing atty uses this to financially force you settle. Usually for much less than you would like. You'll be broke and have no means of paying an atty for yourself. It's tactical and it works.

[marbleloser]

Wait! On April 1 you stated that "I've got divorce papers ready to be filed April 10th"

I'm guessing that nothing has been filed with court in regards to divorce?

Today you stated "The temporary orders state that we will have shared custody.  My attorney felt that asking for me to get primary custody would be too difficult."

What temporary orders? Has the judge signed off on this? If it's what your atty is "asking" for in the divorce papers,it's not temporary orders.It's basically a request and nothing is legal until a judge signs off on it. You haven't had a temp hearing or anything I'm asuming,right?

Also,your atty stating that you shouldn't ask for primary is a big red flag! You don't start negotiating in the middle.

If your atty told you it was ok to move out,without the divorce being even filed,that's another huge red flag.