what if he goes on his own?

[momtara]

My exH is having a job interview today.  If he snags the job and makes more money, he will eventually be able to move out of the house he shares with his relatives, and be on his own.  It was always helpful to know that they would be helping him take care of the kids.  But they want him out when he can afford to move.

It makes me nervous to have him watching the kids on his own.  He's fine some of the time, but he does get angry at times.  He also gets very stressed dealing with both of them.  One at a time, not so much.

My lawyer said that if this ever happens, it's a change in circumstance and I could file for a psych eval or some other evaluation before he can keep seeing them.

How easy would that be?  What are the consequences?

I know it would piss him off that he did so much work to get out of his parents' house and finally be alone with our kids, and then I file something like that.  SO that concerns me.

I know I'm thinking ahead, just wondering if any of you have thoughts.

[sad but wiser]

I think him going on his own would be good for your children to see.  You probably shouldn't be too nervous about the idea, because most of the BPD behaviors are "show" meaning that if you aren't there he doesn't feel a need to act that way.  It is also likely that he will be too nervous about having the children with him all alone to do that much.  Probably, he will take them back to the relative's house and visit with them there most of the time.  He will need someone to watch and notice what a great dad he is for it to be a worthwhile thing for him to do. Just saying... .

[SKyDancer]

He will need someone to watch and notice what a great dad he is for it to be a worthwhile thing for him to do. Just saying... .

Wow, that comment just turned a light on.  Such a great parent when around others and somehow always manages to be around others but so different in the confines of our home.  Interesting... .

[momtara]

The kids are both under 4.  So it's not like they need to see him out on his own.  He hasn't done anything physical to them since before the divorce.  Before the divorce, he did some stuff that scared me.  He got angry one night and put our baby on the side of a bed to make me think she'd fall off.  He raged at me for five hours that night, and kept moving the kids to different beds to scare me.   Luckily they mostly stayed asleep.  He does use them to get back at me, when triggered.  If I was sure he'd be a great dad taking care of them on his own, I wouldn't worry.  But now I do.

These choices are all so hard for me.  Just let the situation play out, or step in?  I never know the right thing to do.

[livednlearned]

I think him going on his own would be good for your children to see.  You probably shouldn't be too nervous about the idea, because most of the BPD behaviors are "show" meaning that if you aren't there he doesn't feel a need to act that way. 

Um, this is flat out not true for many of us. Maybe your BPD sufferer experiences empathy so it's different. My ex has never been able to grasp S12's actual age, no matter what age he is. At a minimum, this showed up as neglect because he couldn't interact with S21 in age-appropriate ways. He got frustrated with S12 for normal kid things no matter who was around.

[momtara]

I think that comment is more apt to someone with narcissistic personality disorder.  Some men probably have both.

[david]

My ex was good at being a mom when the kids were infants. Once they began to think she had difficulty dealing with their points of view, etc. When she left the boys were 4.5 and 8.5 years old. They are now 10 and 15. I was worried in the beginning. What has happened is I learned to listen to them really well and interpret what they were telling me with their limited vocabulary. I taught them how to take care of their basic needs much quicker then I thought I would. They learned how to make sure they ate before going to school, made sure they were dressed properly, etc. I pointed these things out when they were with me all of the time until they no longer needed to hear it from me. Their behaviors with me transfered to when they were with their mom. It didn't trigger her because they did things "on their own" and it wasn't coming from me. In school, the teachers , administration, etc figured things out by interacting with each parent. Over time I became the one they caontacted first. We would discuss whatever and then I would let them approach ex. Since I wasn't involved things went smoothly. When I first proposed this method the principal said "that doesn't make any sense Mr. David". I explained that if he just tried it out he would see how good things worked. He actually called me a few weeks later and said that he still didn't understand what was going on but it was working.

Our boys learned what triggered their mom and avoided those things. Over time they evolved their own coping strategies. Now they mostly just eat and slepp when they are with her. Very little interaction and she seems to like it that way too. She can't handle the daily grind of raising kids. I look at it much differently and I also realize she will never see things the way I see them. That is why I get along very well with my SS's or her kids from her first marriage. We have a healthy relationship. She is unable to do that and it ain't gonna change.

[livednlearned]

If I was sure he'd be a great dad taking care of them on his own, I wouldn't worry.  But now I do.

These choices are all so hard for me.  Just let the situation play out, or step in?  I never know the right thing to do.

What would stepping in entail?

[CdnSunrise]

I'm also wondering about what "stepping in" means. I'm in a similar situation to you, and I feel pretty powerless. I left my uBPDh 2 years ago. My kids are now d12, s10 and s8. At first he lived with his parents and had the kids there for the weekend, but last year he got his own place (parents wanted him out too). I was also worried about the kids being there on their own with him, but things seemed to be going okay... . until 2 weeks ago.

My s8 was with his dad for the evening, alone, and he came home crying and just wanted to sit on my lap and cry. At first, he wouldn't tell me what happened, just that he missed dad and wanted to still see him (?). Then he said that his shoulder hurt. After much questioning (did you trip and fall, did you bump into something, did you wrestle with dad, etc) he said ":)ad told me not to tell you". Great. So I discussed this with my therapist (and a bit with s8's) and my T said that if I don't call children's services, she will. So I asked s8 again about the incident and he told me that his dad got mad at him because s8 was punching him, so after one warning he did a ju-jitzu move on him and hurt his shoulder. s8 said that he didn't tell me because he knew I'd get mad at his dad.

So I believed that uBPDh wouldn't hurt the kids, but I now see that I am (was?) still in denial in some ways. There were physical abuse incidents with the kids when I was still with him - I even said to him that if s10 ever went to school and told someone what his dad did to him, someone would call children's services. I just WANTED to believe that he wouldn't snap and hurt them now because he's on his "best behaviour", but I was wrong. I'm seeing s8's therapist tomorrow and will probably be notifying children's services. I have no idea how this is going to affect the situation. I imagine that uBPDh will be angry. He's already taken me to court about support payments (he thinks he pays too much, but actually pays way less than he should). This is a nightmare that just doesn't seem to want to end.

[momtara]

Sounds like you gave him the benefit of the doubt, which we all want to do.  My kids are younger so they can't even tell me if something happens.  There were no physical precedents with my kids - he just used them to threaten me.  One time, he was yelling at me and I left the room, and then he yelled that he had dropped our baby daughter.  I went into the room and she was sleeping on the floor.  He didn't really drop her, just put her there and said that to get attention and revenge, but that is deranged enough as it is.

I completely empathize with you because you are trying not to make waves and not give him reason to be pissed off or suspicious of you.  Now you have to make waves.  Sometimes it's necessary, but you don't know where it will go.  Courts are reluctant to take away all the parenting time.  If you make a motion, you may want to include supervised visits until he gets a custody or psych eval.  But that opens the floodgates.  Don't know if you had those things yet.

You can try to make it seem like your psych called children's services and not you, so your exH is not vengeful toward you.

Please keep me posted.  I want to hear what happened and how you're dealing with it.

Your poor son! 

[Matt]

I think your lawyer's idea is a good one.  You might want to discuss it with her more, to make sure you understand your options.

Filing a motion asking for psych evals doesn't have to be an attack on him.  It doesn't have to be an accusation.  It can be a sensible, balanced decision to seek more information, so both you and the court can make the most informed possible decision.

Here's how it worked in my case:

I filed a motion asking for the court to appoint a Custody Evaluator - a Ph.D. psychologist with the authority to request that both parents take psych evals.  (If I had it to do over, I should have specifically asked that the CE be directed by the court to administer objective psych evals to both parents.  I didn't make that request, but the CE did it anyway, so it worked out fine.)

My wife's lawyer objected - more stuff happened which I won't go into - long story short, we pretty much proved to my wife's lawyer that there was a good reason for the motion, and she dropped her objection, so long as both lawyers agreed to who the CE should be, and they were able to do that.  So both sides agreed that a CE should be appointed, and who it should be, and the court acted accordingly.  The CE asked us both to take psych evals.  I did it the next day - the MMPI-2 - takes about 2 hours and cost $500.  My wife stalled for weeks, til her attorney told her she had to do it.

The results helped my case a lot, by establishing that I was relatively healthy (the MMPI-2 showed a high risk for substance abuse, but I wasn't drinking or using drugs, and I was in counseling, so that didn't hurt me) and that my wife had BPD and some other stuff.  This supported everything I had said, and proved that my wife wasn't telling the truth about a number of issues - her credibility was badly damaged, in the eyes of the judge and even her own attorney.

Notice I am suggesting that you ask the court to require both parents to take the MMPI-2 or another objective evaluation.  The motion is more likely to be approved if you make it apply to both parties, since that way you aren't assuming that one party is OK and the other isn't - you're not assuming anything - you're just seeking to have objective information that is very relevant put into the court's hands so it can be taken into account.

You can say what you wrote here - "I am concerned about my ex having the kids alone without his family to help." - and you can say why - "When we were married he sometimes did X, Y and Z - stuff that was risky for the kids and I don't want them to be at risk again." - in your own words of course.  Not extreme accusations, just expressions of concern, and reasons why you are concerned.

I think your lawyer is probably right about this - it's probably in your interest to do psych evals (even if your own, like mine, doesn't come up perfect).  If your husband's move gives you the opportunity to file that motion, I think you should do it.