Does it matter who proposes first in settlement

[Family Court Strategies: When Your Partner Has BPD OR NPD Traits.]

I am getting nearer to the start of the settlement process of the marital assets.  My L has not heard anything from h's L . Does it matter who goes first? I can't imagine h liking anything offered from me as it will never be enough. It is coming upon two years since I filed. After two years I can be granted  divorce without h being able to do anything about it. But does that effect the marital assets too? Or does that fight just continue till its done? 

[whirlpoollife]

I am getting nearer to the start of the settlement process of the marital assets.  My L has not heard anything from h's L . Does it matter who goes first? I can't imagine h liking anything offered from me as it will never be enough. It is coming upon two years since I filed. After two years I can be granted  divorce without h being able to do anything about it. But does that effect the marital assets too? Or does that fight just continue till its done? 

[david]

My xBPDw initiated equitable distribution because she needed money. Her atty sent about 10 pages listing "everything" she wanted and how she wanted it split. Her list came to over a million dollars. I believe it was 1.4 million. We had nowhere near that amount in assets. However, I used that as a guide for my reply. I basically agreed with her estimations since I could prove she emptied our house of everything and most of the things she listed I could prove were in her possesion. My counter was to split things 50/50 and she could keep all the things. I just wanted the cash equivalant. My atty liked it. Her atty had a genuine look of shock on her face when all the proof was layed out in front of everyone. Since we had nothing near that amount I settled for a 70/30 split of assets. My atty said we could have easily gotten 80/20 but that would have required another trip in front of a judge and at least 6 more months. Most of the extra money would have been spent on lawyer fees and I would still be married.

If you are looking for what you think is fair I would suggest to ask for more and settle for what you think is fair. This lets everyone win.

Figuring out how much more to ask for is the key. It can't be so over the top, like my ex did,or you lose credibilty. Also, if you know what is important to ex and not you than ask for that and let him win. This way the important things for you may be overlooked.

[Waddams]

Just seconding David's point about asking for more than you want, and building in negotiable give-aways that you know she'll want.

And in the end, remember to keep track of how easy it is to replace things.  Sometimes it's easier (and better!) to go buy a new kitchen table than fight over it in expensive legal battles.  BPD's will sometimes refuse to negotiate or also negotiate in good faith in an effort to drag it out.  They feel they have a string of control tied to you regarding all the stuff and who gets what.  As long as they haven't signed off on anything, they can continue to give you the run-around.  Sometimes, it's better to cut the cord, let 'em have it all, and go get yourself new stuff.  and new stuff that's just all yours, no memories of anything attached to it, etc.  It can be a really good way to go if there aren't sentimental attachments or if the stuff isn't really worth much to start with.

[whirlpoollife]

Thanks david and waddams. Those are good points for me to use and to use with my L. At the moment I think it my L that is stringing things along.    H already did get a lot of of stuff /furniture when he moved out and used the scare tactic , " my attorney said so" to get more. I was scared and didn't care as long as he was going.  After reading what you went through I bet he asks for more.

The house itself , I'm in it, has bad memories but ... . I have to see what happens. I have a considerable amount of money in it, neighbors don't want him back.

[ForeverDad]

It's okay to have some things that are simply non-negotiable.  You have possession, you have a vested interest in it, so don't 'gift' it away.  Whether you might sell it or not after the divorce is final is none of his business.  After the final decree you can have the flexibility to do according to your circumstances, until then don't divulge your intentions or contemplations to him.

That's why we're sometimes our own (second worst, after the ex) enemy, we're too inclined to share information or allow ourselves to be interrogated.  As a lawyer would advise, silence is the best response.  Loose lips sink ships.  Strategy shared is strategy sabotaged.

[marbleloser]

I wouldn't offer anything. Make him list what he wants. What's not on the list,he doesn't get. What you agree to let him have,ask for 1/2 replacement value if you had to go buy it new.

H = I want the kitchen table.

You = Ok. You are welcome to it for $200. That's half of the replacement value. I'll need to buy a replacement.

The more he wants,the higher his costs become,and you're going to need that money for replacing some items.

Think "business deal".

[Nope]

The decision of marital assets can hold up a divorce. Unfortunately, if you are the one wanting this situation over with that puts you at a disadvantage. If he doesn't have a reason to care about getting the divorce over with then the easy thing to do is nothing.

You have to give him a reason to want it done. Basically any financial obligations on his part that continue until the final decree will do. Like spousal support or responsibility to continue paying the mortgage on a house he can't live in. Unless there is something about being married to you that makes his life more difficult you will have a hard time getting anything from him.

Unfortunately others here are right that there is no advantage to being the first at the table with an offer. But if you must in order to get the ball rolling, make it well above and beyond what you would settle for.

[david]

Saying nothing unless you absolutely have to is a great strategy. I went to the equitable distribution conference. We already had the discovery or whatever you call it. She had her 10 pages and I had my response. I just sat there and let her talk. The conference officer aseked basic questions about our two boys: age, birthday, etc , how they were doing in school. Ex answered everything except sahe got stuck on S15 and how he was doing in school. She said he wasn't working to his potential. All the officer wanted was good, average, or poor. Ex answered 4 times and officer kept trying to get a straight answer. He started to look frustrated and I simply said above average. He looked at me and said thanks. Further along ex started attacking me. I just looked at the wall in front of me. It was beige. After her 5th attack her lawyer got involved. My atty quickly ended that once her atty began. It started with ex going through her 10 pages. When it was my turn I just sat there looking at the beige wall. My atty did all the talking. I did listen to everything and occasionally wrote something down. We already had a plan so I didn't need to say anything. Once ex's atty realized our plan she changed her tactics and went out of the room with her client. I then spoke to my atty with the officer present. The officer got to see that I was reasonable and rational. By then the officer let my atty take the lead and things went smoothly. The offer was between 70/30 and 80/20. Her atty went out again with her client. I explained that 70/30 would be fine. My atty said 80/20, if we went to court, would probably be the final order. The officer agreed and said that would be his recommendation. I looked at the officer and explained if we agreed to 70/30 today then by tomorrow I would be divorced and wouldn't have to come to court again. In my opinion it was worth spending the 10 5 percent today then continue this for at least 6 more months. He responded by saying he thought I was very reasonable and that if ex agrees we will be done in a few minutes. If ex didn't agree I would have gone for the 80/20 split. Ex's atty heard about the 70/30 and they both went out again. They came back about 15 minutes later and agreed. The next day it was official.

I wouldn't offer anything. I would have a list of everything h already took and a value to it like marbleloser said. You may not actually use it but it is always a good plan to be prepared for whatever direction things go. Make sure your atty understands specifically what you want to achieve.

[ForeverDad]

Some states allow lawyers to be present, other states exclude lawyers.  If you think you need to consult someone during the session(s) then just ask for a break to take a little walk or ask for a restroom break.  Then with relative privacy you can call your lawyer or supporters to get feedback.

Some states mediators to report issues and details of the mediation, other states keep mediation a black box with only 'success' or 'failure' reported to the court, with no indication why mediation failed.

Some states make mediation agreements 'written in stone', other states can reach agreements that are viewed as 'tentative' to be affirmed or denied in court.

Some mediators are trained, experienced and perceptive, in other words, excellent.  Others can cause problems themselves.  How so?  A poor mediator may notice that your Ex is unreasonable, inflexible, refusing to realistically negotiate, then notice that you are reasonable and flexible, then turn to you and ask you to always be the one to bend and give in - simply because of the vast difference between your stance and Ex's entitled, demanding, inflexible brick wall plus immovable object.

So notice how your mediator works.  Is mediator reasonably fair, observant and perceptive?  Is teh mediator capable when trying to resolve impasses?

Lastly, mediation is just that, mediation.  Just as Ex can refuse to mediate, you too, once you see it is going nowhere, can state, "There are some issues where neither of us is reaching agreement.  Until that changes, there's no point to spend the time and expense for further sessions."  (That's what our mediator took the lead and stated to us.  He was good.)

It has become standard practice for courts to order mediation immediately after setting temporary orders in a divorce case.  So understand that court wants us to "try" but you should not be pressured to "settle at any cost".  If mediation fails, as it often does in high conflict cases like ours since it is so early in the divorce case, then call it quits if/when it becomes clear that it is failing and just go back to court ready to state, "I tried, I really did try."

[whirlpoollife]

I wouldn't offer anything. Make him list what he wants. What's not on the list,he doesn't get. What you agree to let him have,ask for 1/2 replacement value if you had to go buy it new.

Wow fortunately I made a list of what he took already and took photos. Yes I had to replace them, including the car. I did get rid of some things too, oh oh but it made a nice campfire.

I pay the mortgage. But I know he despises paying 600 for child support and alimony, and he wants money.

If I waited this long, almost two yrs, I will try to wait a few more months. Ugh. When I first filed I thought it would all be over in 6 months. Wrong.

Thanks to all for the informative replies.

[marbleloser]

"Wow fortunately I made a list of what he took already and took photos. Yes I had to replace them, including the car"

Thats good. You have proof of what he took with the photos. Hopefully,you kept the receipts of the things you replaced.He'll need to cough up half.

[VeryFree]

My x didn't want to settle. She just wanted everything.

I tried to settle and started negotiations. She just refused and went to court.

Months later court orders us to negotiate.

Again I started, giving her more than she's supposed to get by law and certainly much more than she deserves. But it never is enough, she wants more and more.

Settling isn't possible with some BPDs. They just don't want to loose their grip on you.

[ForeverDad]

She just refused and went to court.

Months later court orders us to negotiate.

Again I started, giving her more than she's supposed to get by law and certainly much more than she deserves. But it never is enough, she wants more and more.

Of course the court wants you to settle.  It would relieve the court from having to decide.  It would relieve the judge from a potential appeal where the decision could be nitpicked and pieces sent back to the judge for reconsideration.  It would possibly reduce the risk of post-decree tension - though not likely to work in cases like ours.

However, the court ordered you to negotiate.  That does not mean you are forced to settle for ex's terms and demands.  It means you give it a try and if you still don't reach a settlement then you just return to court and report that you did try but failed.

Judges hate to make a decision where one appears the winner and the other the loser.  Some judges have even sent the parties off to mediation saying, "Reach a settlement, if you don't then neither one of you will like my decision."  Well, for most of us a judge's decision would likely be overall better than the crumbs our ex would leave for us.  But judges want a real effort at negotiation, so do that but... . be aware that disordered spouses generally won't agree to anything even halfway reasonable until they have an upcoming hearing or even breathing down his or her neck.

In my case the first thing the court ordered after setting the temporary order was mediation.  That failed.  After the court's parenting investigation and the custody evaluation the court ordered a settlement conference.  That failed too.  Finally, some 21 months into the divorce process, when I arrived at court on Trial Morning, I was greeted with the news ex was willing to settle.  The temp order was very favorable to her and she had delayed the process as much as she could.  She knew the trial might go bad for her and only then, painted into a corner so to speak, was she willing to 'negotiate'.

[whirlpoollife]

As of now, my L has not made an offer but he sent a letter to x2bh L asking what is it they want plus that the two year separation date is coming up and if we do not hear from them by that time he will file for an affidavit for a divorce decree with a motion to the court to go before a divorce master. (Once that affidavit is filed h has 20 days to respond ). My L says wait it out. He does not know why we are not hearing from h and his L as he nothing since the letter.  My L presented the inheritance I received and h' s L knows what is and is not marital property of that. Maybe h wants to use the fact I have money in the bank and he does not so if we go to court he would get a higher % of marital assets.  It's not much but just a theory.

The waiting is so forever but I tell myself at least I'm not just starting this process

[david]

My ex waits things out too. I started a custody modification last August and we still haven't been in front of a judge. She knows the game and stretches it out as much as possible. I don't really care about the reason. I stay focused on our kids and stay the course. The wheels of justice turn slowly especially if one of the parties wants it to.

[Matt]

In my state, there are guidelines for division of assets, for alimony, and for child support.  You may want to find out if there are guidelines like that where you live, and make a proposal based on those guidelines.  Then if you can't reach agreement, you can show the court that you proposed something sensible and he turned it down.  The court may award you what you proposed.