Went to our second joint meeting with the custody evaluator

[Family Court Strategies: When Your Partner Has BPD OR NPD Traits.]

That was yesterday. The evaluator had recently talked to both of our boys (15 and 10). He also talked to my brother and ex's oldest son since they are living with us. The evaluator started the meeting by telling the direction we were going. Basically he said he wanted to address all the issues he saw that the children brought up. He was going to address only what he perceived as the negatives and wanted us to reply. Well, I sat there for about 20 minutes and just listened. Apparently, nothing negative was said about me. He asked both boys to describe a typical day when with dad and when with mom. He looked at mom and said S15 described a typical day when with you and he never mentioned mom at all. He was wondering if mom had anything to say. She played the, Well, I really can't understand that. I get along so well with everyone routine. She then turned it around and said S15 is a teen and doesn't interact with anyone. Gotta shift the blame. After that he wanted to know what I thought about certain things. He described S10 as quiet and not really saying much. I said that is S10 to a T. He is normally quiet, cautious until he feels comfortable. Having talked to him for only an hour would not be enough time for him to open up. I described S10 fairly well, since I know both of our boys well. The evaluator seemed to understand what I was describing and he even comeneted that my description explained S10 very well.

I believe at that point ex realized things were not going in her favor. The anger began to boil over. The evaluator talked about their grades in school. S15 has been struggling and his grades reflect that. He doesn't do his homework when at his moms'. Ex blamed it on S15 and then turned around and said the only reason he does his homework with me is because I sit with him and we do it together. She insisted that was not the correct way for a 15 year old to do his homework. The eval looked at me and I simply said S15 does his homework at the dining room table or in the basement because that is where the house computer is. Whe he is done I require that he shows me his work. I look it over and may question a thing or two but that is it. I do not help him with his homework unless he asks me and that is not a common occurence. Ex then turned her head (for a good 45 seconds to a minute/ I just looked at the black and white picture across the room) stared at me and said that I should put my foot up his (S15) butt and make him do his homework when he is with her. I am starting to have a problem with not laughing hysterically when she says these kinds of things. When she sends emails with this kind of nonsense I do laugh out loud. I rarely am in her physical presence so it caught me offguard. I didn't laugh though. The eval looked at me and I simply said I don't think it appropriate to try to dictate what goes on in their moms' house. We both have different ways of doing things and I have never been asked my opinion and I haven't offered it.

A couple more things were said and I looked up at the clock. It was 15 minutes longer then scheduled and I was supposed to pick S15 up at school. The eval noticed and said we were running a little late. He asked what time I was supposed to pick S15 up at school. I explained that my normal time is now and that if things ran a little later that S15 would call me and I would tell him when I would be coming. The eval didn't want to hold things up and said we would meet again. We set the date and I left.

Ex, when she lashed out, said quite a few lies. I was impressed with how fluid she spoke and the lies just kept coming. I have several things that can prove many of the lies. I was impressed with how easily she was able to do that except her tone was off. She is one angry cookie.

[david]

That was yesterday. The evaluator had recently talked to both of our boys (15 and 10). He also talked to my brother and ex's oldest son since they are living with us. The evaluator started the meeting by telling the direction we were going. Basically he said he wanted to address all the issues he saw that the children brought up. He was going to address only what he perceived as the negatives and wanted us to reply. Well, I sat there for about 20 minutes and just listened. Apparently, nothing negative was said about me. He asked both boys to describe a typical day when with dad and when with mom. He looked at mom and said S15 described a typical day when with you and he never mentioned mom at all. He was wondering if mom had anything to say. She played the, Well, I really can't understand that. I get along so well with everyone routine. She then turned it around and said S15 is a teen and doesn't interact with anyone. Gotta shift the blame. After that he wanted to know what I thought about certain things. He described S10 as quiet and not really saying much. I said that is S10 to a T. He is normally quiet, cautious until he feels comfortable. Having talked to him for only an hour would not be enough time for him to open up. I described S10 fairly well, since I know both of our boys well. The evaluator seemed to understand what I was describing and he even comeneted that my description explained S10 very well.

I believe at that point ex realized things were not going in her favor. The anger began to boil over. The evaluator talked about their grades in school. S15 has been struggling and his grades reflect that. He doesn't do his homework when at his moms'. Ex blamed it on S15 and then turned around and said the only reason he does his homework with me is because I sit with him and we do it together. She insisted that was not the correct way for a 15 year old to do his homework. The eval looked at me and I simply said S15 does his homework at the dining room table or in the basement because that is where the house computer is. Whe he is done I require that he shows me his work. I look it over and may question a thing or two but that is it. I do not help him with his homework unless he asks me and that is not a common occurence. Ex then turned her head (for a good 45 seconds to a minute/ I just looked at the black and white picture across the room) stared at me and said that I should put my foot up his (S15) butt and make him do his homework when he is with her. I am starting to have a problem with not laughing hysterically when she says these kinds of things. When she sends emails with this kind of nonsense I do laugh out loud. I rarely am in her physical presence so it caught me offguard. I didn't laugh though. The eval looked at me and I simply said I don't think it appropriate to try to dictate what goes on in their moms' house. We both have different ways of doing things and I have never been asked my opinion and I haven't offered it.

A couple more things were said and I looked up at the clock. It was 15 minutes longer then scheduled and I was supposed to pick S15 up at school. The eval noticed and said we were running a little late. He asked what time I was supposed to pick S15 up at school. I explained that my normal time is now and that if things ran a little later that S15 would call me and I would tell him when I would be coming. The eval didn't want to hold things up and said we would meet again. We set the date and I left.

Ex, when she lashed out, said quite a few lies. I was impressed with how fluid she spoke and the lies just kept coming. I have several things that can prove many of the lies. I was impressed with how easily she was able to do that except her tone was off. She is one angry cookie.

[mywifecrazy]

Hang in there David! Keep your focus on you and your boys. Just keep being a great Dad and it will all work out. I'm in the same boat as you I have two sons (14 & 9). I am lucky though, by the grace of God I have primary custody.

The last thing you wrote about how easily the lies flowed out of her mouth really struck a chord with me. When I look back I am so amazed at all the lies my uBPDxw said over the years and continues to say and she is so darn good at it! Most people when they tell a lie get nervous, not her she is cold and calculating and smooth as silk. Very sick people!

[david]

I was sitting there listening to how fluid the lies came out. The pace that she was going at was quick and steady. The subject matter was varied. I don't think it could have been rehearsed because it was pretty much on what was being talked about at that particular meeting. If it could be recorded and each item addressed indivdually I could have shown that the majority was lies. That would have taken close to an hour to do so that is not practical in this situation. However, I did notice from the evaluator he likes things written down so he can look at it at a later time. I already started writing what was said and having the proof of the truth. I don't have proof of everything but the top 10 should be enough.

She did say she was seeing her therapist. It is the same person she was seeing in 2007 that ex said was a marriage counselor and that we both needed to go to fix the broken marriage. Of course, when I went I was the problem. I still am the problem so that hasn't changed. I stopped going because the T said she couldn't see me anymore because ex was her client. After that I learned about BPD and this site. It was a very confusing time for me back then. I would listen to the same kind of nonsense and believe it. I questioned my own sanity back then believing I really was abusive. I found a T that helped me see through the FOG and got stronger.

I get my ex, to some degree, and from what she was saying I can tell she is in her own personal hell. I believe she is just too frightened to face reality and her denial defense mechanism is too strong. Her T is no match for her.

[Matt]

Will you have another meeting with the Custody Evaluator?

What are the next steps in the process.

[david]

We have another joint meeting in two weeks. The evaluator read a prepared statement of sorts at our first joint meeting. I mentioned it the other day and he indicated he likes when that is done. I am writing something now. I will be going over things that were discussed and especially the things he concentrated on. It seemed they were the things that were important to him in making a decision. Ex handed him all the protection orders (three) that she filed against me at this last meeting. I realized that the first one was 2007, the second 2008 which she withdrew, and the third one in 2010 which I was also arrested because of false allegations. Since I have gone to email only communication, carrying a video and audio recorder with me at all times and ex knows it I haven't had a single legal accusation. That is 4 years now. I have a multitude of emails making accusations during that time.

Evauator also pointed out that both boys said that when with dad they had no problem using a phone to call their mom.However, they are not able to call their dad whenever they want. Ex said she had no idea why the children would say such a thing. She then said that the children lost the house phone a few weeks ago and she allows them to use her phone but for some reason they never asked to use it. She surmised that was why they said that. My phone records will show that when the house phone was not "lost" I received calls on a nearly daily basis from the boys. I will be printing the last 6 months of phone records to bring with me.

I also thought about what she said about me putting my foot up S15's butt. Ex accused me of physically harming S10 in 2008 9I have an email and she also took him to our pediatrician for that same incident) and choking S15 in 2009 ( she wrote that in a police report and also wrote that S15 denied that it happened in the same report) . She also accused me of being physically, verbally, emotionally, and spiritually abuseive towards her. So why would someone that is so fearful of me suggest I should be putting my foot up our sons butt ?

Ex also said that she was seeing a therapist ( the same one she has been seeing for at least 7 years/ don't think it's working too well) to try to deal with my abusive behavior and poor parenting methods. I am wondering if ex has the T hook, line, and sinker and is trying to use her. Ex would like someone to be on her side and, she may be thinking, that the T will be contacted and support ex's viewpoint.

Several things I also will be bringing up. Ex ran away in 2007 and went to her brothers. He lived 10 minutes away. I would never have guessed that was were she was because a few years prior ( he is a serious drunk) he got drunk and started to trash his house when we were there. Ex was very upset and vowed to never set foot in his house again. He has 4 kids. We never seen them again after that. A few months after she moved in with him she had a fight with him and left. Our two boys haven't seen their 4 cousins since that time. Also, her older sister passed away years ago.We took her three kids in. All teens. Within months ex actually threw them out of our house and sent them packing because they were "disrespectful". She uses that word whenever somebody doesn't do what she thinks they should do. She wrote a 5 page letter to them and their fathers side of their family. That was in 2006. She was extremely nasty and her anger really shows. We have never heard from those three since. I tried to talk to ex back then explaining they were teens and they just lost their mother and don't have a relationship with their dad. They were living with their mom and her boyfriend at the time of her death. The boyfriend actually wanted to continue raising them but ex insisted he was not family. I have that letter. This stuff will probably not be useful in court but I think it would be helpful in a custody eval to show she has a pattern of serious anger and retaliation against anyone that gets in her way of her view of things. Writing this all done, all I can say is what the H*** was I thinking. I am a peacemaker and don't like to make waves. I used to try to find ways to not upset her. I stopped walking on eggshells and that is when the s*** hit the fan.

[david]

Forgot. I am not sure what the next step is after this next meeting. I think this may be the last meeting unless the evaluator thinks he needs more time or info.

[Matt]

If you remember very clearly the things she said at the meeting - false statements and especially accusations or anything that puts you in a bad light, or is unfair to one of the kids - one thing you might consider is making some notes and going over those issues to start the next meeting.

For each one, you can repeat exactly what she said - as near as you can to word-for-word - "At our last meeting, Ms. David made a few statements which I need to address very clearly.  First, she said 'Blah blah blah.'  I remember it clearly because I made notes.  I want to make it clear that I have never done that and never would do that.  Then, she said 'Blah blah blah.'  Again, that is not true, and there is no evidence to support that." etc.

The reason I'm suggesting this is that each thing she says could be assumed to be true if it is not very clearly denied.  You can also offer any evidence you might have - "I brought this along to show you, Dr. CE - you can keep this copy and you can look it up yourself to verify it." - or at least state very clearly that what was said is false and not supported by any evidence.  "I think it is wrong to make false accusations which are not supported by any evidence, and I would suggest we agree on a ground rule, from now on - we won't make any false accusations - it's not helpful to the process or to the kids."

There may be a lot of fallout - after you say what you need to say, and you get quiet, the other party can say whatever she wants, but she can't prove something that didn't happen.  If needed, you can just very simply repeat what you said before - "Again, that accusation is false and is not supported by any evidence.  Let's move on to another subject."

[david]

Matt, I started doing that. Heres how it went. I wrote done something she said and then went to find the proof it wasn't true. We only communicate through email so that is my main source. I started looking at the past few months. Well that triggered a memory of something that happens in the past. I went further back in the emails. Yep, the memories came again. I wound up with 4 pages of things ex has lied about or has done that directly affected the kids in a negative way. Ex alienated 11 cousins on her side of the family that our kids no longer see. When she emptied our house she had the boys with her. They seen it all. She then took them to the storage unit where everything was several times. She told them I stole everything after that. When she first left she emptied our house and damaged the inside. I moved into my brothers so the kids were there when they were with me. She was at her brothers then. She actually called the school our oldest was going to saying we no longer lived in that school district and our oldest should not be allowed to attend the school. The principal called me and I explained the situation. I asked for two weeks to repair the house. The principal was understanding. Ex filed three protection orders. The first one she wanted me evicted from the house. That was denied. The next day she came with the police to have me evicted. She convinced the police that a judges signature was not needed on the petition to have me evicted. I was literally in the driveway calling my atty.I handed the phone to the officer. Ex simply said it was a misunderstanding. The second protection order was on our oldest' birthday. The third was on our youngest' birthday. How's that for birthday memories for the kids. I was able to show that the majority of the things she said in the meeting were not true. Some of the things I couldn't prove but I still pointed out the lie. Each incident I ended with showing how the children were involved, affected, etc. I kept it a brief as possible. I have two weeks to polish it up so I am not under a time constraint.

It's amazing how many things you simply forget about. I am in such a good place now I simply laughed about a lot of it. She truly is looney tunes.

[david]

I have an 8 year history of negative things she has done towards the kids. I think showing a pattern and not just a few incidents from the last few months is the better way to go.

[Matt]

I think you're talking about two things here:  the big picture, and the meetings.

First things first:  address exactly what is said, when it's said, or as soon after as possible.

Here's an example.  Ex says, ":)avid hit Son on Christmas."  Don't interrupt, but carefully write down what she said, as close as possible to word-for-word.  (I take notes in a hard-bound notebook, and date each page.)

Then look to the CE to confirm it's your turn - make sure Ex has stopped talking - and say, "I want to make something very clear.  A minute ago Ms. David said, ':)avid hit Son on Christmas.'  That is not true - I have never hit Son.  There is no evidence to support this accusation and it is completely false.  I think false accusations are harmful to this process and to the kids - we can't be good parents if we are making false accusations."

Since the accusations were at the last meeting, I would suggest you either do that by e-mail, or at the start of the next meeting:  "We have a little old business I need to address before we move on to other subjects.  At our last meeting, Ms. David said, ':)avid hit Son on Christmas.'  I want to make it clear that that is completely false - I have never hit Son - and there is no evidence to support that accusation.  We need to not have any more false accusations in this meeting or in any other forum."  Then let the CE take it from there - if he is any good, he will support what you are saying.

The bigger picture - all the false statements your ex has ever made - can't possibly be addressed in one meeting.  If you can pick out the most important, and the ones most easily proven false, and put them into a letter to the CE, that might be good.  "I am aware of a number of false accusations Ms. David has made against me, and I think it is important that you are aware of them.  I will list those I think you may have heard first- or second-hand in this letter, and please let me know if there are other accusations I should be aware of."

Then list each one - how you became aware of it - and what the truth is:

* In Court Document Such-And-Such, Ms. David stated, 'Blah blah blah.'  This is not true, and was not supported by any evidence.

* My neighbor Mr. Jones told me that Ms. David stated to him that I did such-and-such.  I have never done such-and-such, and Ms. David has provided no evidence to support this accusation.

Etc.

So the pattern will become clear, as you say, and the CE should not assume that any other accusation she may make is true.

I just don't think it's practical to list them all in a meeting, but I do think it's good to challenge each statement as it is made - not nit-picking or interrupting, but waiting your turn and very calmly - referring to your notes so you repeat what she said accurately - state that it is false.  Your ex will then see that any accusation she makes will be challenged and she won't be able to back them up, and either she will quit making them, or she will look like she has no regard for the truth.  And the CE will probably put an end to it, one way or another - he'll probably say, "Let's move away from accusations and focus on what we can do for the kids." - and you can eagerly follow his lead, and show that you want to focus on the kids not accusations.

[david]

In the meeting the evaluator did look to me for a response to the more serious allegations. I easily handled them. He seemed satified with my responses. I offered proof to several and he said that was not necessary. It appeared that he got it. The ones I thought about afterwards are at the end of what I had written. I put it in chronological order. I was trying to show things really haven't changed in the past 8 years. The only real difference, and I noted this, is when I purchased an audio recorder, a video recorder, let ex know I had them, and used email communication only I have not had a protection order filed against me. That is 4 years now. I still get accusations in emails but no further action has been taken by ex.

Matt, I like you input. Having others thoughts really helps stay focused. I plan on looking at it in a few days. I also plan on giving it to a few friends that know my situation and see what they think too. I have two weeks.

[Matt]

In the meeting the evaluator did look to me for a response to the more serious allegations. I easily handled them. He seemed satified with my responses. I offered proof to several and he said that was not necessary. It appeared that he got it. The ones I thought about afterwards are at the end of what I had written. I put it in chronological order. I was trying to show things really haven't changed in the past 8 years. The only real difference, and I noted this, is when I purchased an audio recorder, a video recorder, let ex know I had them, and used email communication only I have not had a protection order filed against me. That is 4 years now. I still get accusations in emails but no further action has been taken by ex.

Matt, I like you input. Having others thoughts really helps stay focused. I plan on looking at it in a few days. I also plan on giving it to a few friends that know my situation and see what they think too. I have two weeks.

Of course the even-bigger picture is that if you are seen as too "defensive" - if your primary focus is on the fight with your ex - even if you have truth on your side - you might not be seen as the perfect father either... .

So there's what some call the "pivot" - a quick way of handling a negative and moving to a positive.  I've found it very helpful in these situations.

The key is to do it quickly and smoothly.  First, put the negative to rest very clearly, and then, without pausing, move on to what you think should be the focus.

Ex says, ":)avid hit Son!".

You say, "I have never hit Son, and Ms. David has not provided any evidence for this or any of her other accusations.  Rather than making false accusations, let's focus on what will be best for the kids - for example, I have brought some information showing that the school where I live is one of the best in the state, and it's close enough for them to walk to safely... . ".

This puts the other party off her game, because if she tries to go back to the accusation she'll look bad, unless she has solid evidence.  So she'll probably go on to the topic you raise, and presumably you've chosen a topic where you are prepared with good information.

Where we screw up is in hesitating rather than going smoothly on to the positive topic.  If you hesitate you'll be mired in an argument.

What I've seen is that when this is done well it not only shifts the subject, it also makes you look really good - you're positive, and a problem-solver, and you're focused on the kids.  After doing this several times, I found that not just my own attorney, but also my wife's attorney, and even my wife herself, treated me differently - not as one of two fighting parties, but as a leader they could follow toward a destination.  Didn't end all the issues - the $ especially - but the custody and kid issues tended to get resolved this way... .

[cobaltblue]

David, I'm preparing to go through a custody evaluation in coming weeks and your experiences are really useful. Thank you. A few follow up questions:

1. Video and audio. Can you share the make and model of what you found works best?

2. My BPDw has started to keep score of how many times she does things for the kids, even going out of her way to do things so that I can't be "credited" for them.

Example: I normally make the kids lunches in the morning. Last week she started making them the night before so they did not need to be made in the AM. I normally wake the kids up at 6:45a. This morning she woke them up at 5:30am so I would not be able to. Just bizarre.

She has filed a motion for Primary Caregiver, which is custody 101 - get the court to recognize that and then use it as leverage in seeking sole custody later. My gut tells me she is trying to visually show she does 51% and I do 49%. No idea how relevant that is or if it's looked at or score kept.

If I knew that raising kids was going to be akin to getting the high score on a video game, I'd have brought more quarters to the game... .

We both do identical roles at different times, she's just clearly trying to document a higher percentage.

I'm getting documented out. Would be great if you could share with us what you've found to be relevant and not relevant to document and in what format your journaling is. In absence of not knowing, I'm journaling everything and it creates a ton of anxiety.

3. What was the verbiage you used when telling her you would only discuss things by email? I'm going to start doing that.

[david]

Matt, I hear you. There are times when I am in the zone and things go smoothly. I have difficulty when she throws out a multitude of lies one after the other. I can handle the single shots. It's the machine gun I have difficulty with. Usually when she fires one shot I can reply well. The first meeting the eval was talking to ex about the fact that I am concerned that I do the majoprity of the childrens hopmework even though I have less time. Ex immediately blurted out, "I already did fourth grade homework and I have no intention of doing it again." The eval looked at me and I simply said , "I have no problem doing homework with the boys, in fact, I am willing to do all their homework with them. I just need more time. It isn't fair that the boys have to cram all their homework when they are with me and on my weekends to catch up." I found that when ex says certain things it is easier to agree and just find a solution that works best for the kids.

Cobaltblue

1) I have a pocket audio recorder that I got at Radio Shack for less than 40 dollars. Ir records for hours and I can put it all on my computer. The sound quality is not that good but you can hear what you need to hear. I may eventually purchase somethin better. I purchased a simple digital camera. A Canon sx230hs. I don't think they make it anymore. I keep it in my car. It takes okay pictures so I use it when I go somewhere with the boys. It records videos too. I have a spare battery. That plugs into my computer too. It also has eye fi capabilty. You need an eyefi sd card for that to work. If you have that it will send your photos etc to the cloud if you are in a wifi spot.

2) Ex is keeping score. When you know what she just started doing you can document that too. If the last year you always made their lunch and all of a sudden she started doing it that is fine. Just document the facts. If she is waking the kids up at 5:30 instead of 6:45 document that too. They should be allowed to sleep later so they will not be as tired when they go to school.

3) I simply sent an email telling her that I no longer have texting on my phone and I think it best that all communication about the boys be done through email. I assume she tried texting and that didn't work because I turned my texting off. When she called I let voicemail pick up. If she left a message about the boys I wrote it down in an email with my reply. It took a few months but she figured it out. A few years later she started calling from various other phone numbers. At first I picked up. When I realized what was going on I let my voicemail pick it up. The only numbers I answered were ones in my phone book. Sometimes she would leave a voicemail. If it pertained to the kids I sent an email like before. I then put that number in my phonebook. After a few months I had 5 or 6 numbers that she called from. Gotta love it. She don't like boundaries. I used to get 40 to 50 emails a month. No more than 10 were about our kids. The rest were about what was wrong with me, etc. Today I get about a dozen emails a month and half of them pertain to the kids. I consider that progress.

[cobaltblue]

Thanks. How did you breech the topic of her behavior with regard to BPD with the custody evaluator such that they got it without you acting like you diagnosed her?

Also were you allowed to play audio for the custody evaluator or just prepare a statement of concerns?

[cobaltblue]

Matt, there seems to be a strategy to put the Non on the defensive. Any tips on how to not get sucked up into that, since as you say every allegation needs to be disputed quickly or it is perceived as truth?

[Matt]

Matt, there seems to be a strategy to put the Non on the defensive. Any tips on how to not get sucked up into that, since as you say every allegation needs to be disputed quickly or it is perceived as truth?

You mean the other party is attacking - accusations and other stuff - and you feel like you're on the defensive a lot?

I think this is common.  (Might be best to dive into your own situation on a thread you start - it's traditional here to keep each thread focused on the issues raised by the member who starts the thread.  But of course you and David are going through some similar stuff now... . )

I think it's to be expected, even in a "normal" case, that both attorneys are going to try to put the other party on the defensive, and when one party has BPD or something similar, they tend to take no responsibility, and blame others a lot.  Bill Eddy, who literally wrote the book on this subject - "Splitting" - calls people who have BPD and NPD "blamers"... .

This is much of what David has been talking about - "a multitude of lies" coming so fast you just feel under assault.

And it's why I've been ranting about my notebook, because that's what helped me a lot.  Carefully noting what the other party says helps me not to re-act, but to listen and draw her out - get her statements on record - and then respond after I've had a chance to breathe and think.

Here's that same principal on a more strategic level:  depositions.

I never knew about depositions - my lawyer never mentioned them - til one of the wise people here suggested I ask about them.  The way it worked was, I filed a motion to have my wife deposed;  her lawyer then filed a similar motion;  and the lawyers agreed on a date and place.  We had a court reporter present.  For four hours, my lawyer asked my wife anything relevant - my lawyer and I had prepared by listing a bunch of questions grouped by topic - and my wife had to answer under oath.  Then in the afternoon I did the same - sworn in and asked questions by my wife's lawyer.  (She ran out of questions after about two hours.)

It works in favor of the truth-teller.  I found it very easy.  My lawyer told me, "Just answer the question in the fewest possible words.  If you can answer 'Yes', 'No', or 'I don't know.', do that, and stop."  There were a few topics I wish hadn't been raised, but I just answered truthfully, and that was that.

My wife, on the other hand, had a very bad time.  My lawyer was shocked at how badly she handled it.  She had told a bunch of lies - falsely accused me of assault, for example - and my lawyer was well-prepared.  Each time my wife lied, I subtly made a * on my note-pad, where my lawyer could see me doing that, to tell her, "That was a lie.", and then she dug more into that topic, asking for specifics, so the record showed my wife spinning very specific and detailed lies.  Afterward, I went over the transcript, and highlighted the false statements - more than forty of them, of which we could easily prove at least a dozen.

So my lawyer was able to say to my wife's lawyer, "If this goes to trial, I will put your client on the stand, and prove that she made a number of false statements under oath.  She will be at risk of criminal charges.  So let's settle."  My wife's lawyer was ethically obligated to advise her, "You will be at risk of criminal charges if we go to trial - no matter what you say at trial, your deposition will be submitted and they can prove false statements - there's no way out.  We need to settle."  My wife's position became very weak - she had to have a settlement - so I was able to drive a much harder bargain.

So to your question, Cobalt - "How not to get put on the defensive" - here are a few specific things you can do:

* Carefully note any accusations or false statements, and look for the first opportunity to state they are false, and that they are not supported by evidence.

* Share the accusations openly - show all the professionals involved that the other party has a pattern of unsupported accusations, so her credibility will be harmed.

* Learn the "pivot".

* Consider deposing the other party, and make sure your attorney is carefully prepared to expose all the lies that way.

* Make it clear to the other party's attorney that if you go to trial you will shine a bright light on all the false accusations, and they will help your case.

* In general, re-frame the discussion from "Cobalt did X, Y and Z!" (so you're on the defensive) to "The other party has a pattern of false and unsupported accusations, and that is not in the child's interest."

[Matt]

For me, the notebook makes all the difference.

When my ex is talking, I focus on taking notes.  Sometimes I put a * by something I need to respond to right away.  Other times I'm not sure what she said - taking notes forces me to notice when something isn't clear to me - so I ask her to repeat it or clarify it - "You said something about "insurance" but I didn't catch that - could you repeat it please?" - makes her double down on her story and shows I am listening.

Taking notes also helps me to not interrupt.  Interrupting makes me look rude and impulsive, and like I'm not listening openly.

When your ex is "throwing out a multitude of lies one after the other", my suggestion would be to focus on note-taking and clarification first - make sure she has had the opportunity to say what she is saying, and you have carefully noted it.  Maybe even some questions to her, to get more specifics - "You said I did such-and-such - approximately when was that - was it recently?".  The more specific her statements are, the easier they will be to prove false, or to at least put into question.  "So you said I did that last weekend - the 10th and 11th - how did you know I did that?  :)id you report that to anybody at the time?" etc.

Then... . when all her multitude of lies are out in the open, and very clear, and you have them in your notes, you can take them one by one:

"OK, thanks, that is now clear.  You are saying that I did such-and-such on Saturday May 10th.  The truth is, I have never done that, and in fact I wasn't even in town on Saturday so I couldn't have done that.  And you are offering no evidence to support your accusation.  You also said that on Easter I did such-and-such.  That is also false, and in fact you and I did not see each other on Easter - I spent it with my family - so there is no way you would know what I did that day.  I have never done such-and-such, and you are offering no evidence, just an accusation." etc.

It is hard, but if you can learn to first focus on documenting what she is saying - right out in the open so both your ex and the CE can see what you are doing - and then on clearly re-stating each lie, and stating that it is false, and that there is no evidence to support it - and offering any evidence you might have, or be able to get - "If you would like, I could provide the cancelled check which shows that what Ms. David said is not true." - I think this pattern will change very soon.

Also... . accusations made by e-mail... .

I had this too - rants, complaints and accusations.  I decided our e-mails were not confidential, and began to reply with cc: to someone in authority.  For a while that was our CE, and then our parenting coach.  cc: not bcc: so my ex can clearly see that when I reply to her rants, I copy someone she would prefer not to see them.

"In your e-mail below you accuse me of such-and-such.  This is false, and if you repeat it I will inform the court through my attorney that you are making false accusations."  I only had to do this a couple of times, and I think my wife's lawyer probably heard about it and told her to stop making accusations by e-mail - it makes her look crazy.

I guess the strategy I'm suggesting, both for accusations and lies in meetings with the CE, and stuff sent by e-mail, is "Let in the light."  That is, be very open - communicate to whoever you think appropriate - repeat the accusations and then state that they are false.  Make it clear that there is a pattern of false statements and accusations, and that she is offering nothing to back them up.  Everybody will get it, and if she has any self-control at all she will stop doing it.  Or if she doesn't, everybody will see that very clearly... .

[cobaltblue]

Did you use a bound printed notebook or journaling app on the iPhone?

[Matt]

Did you use a bound printed notebook or journaling app on the iPhone?

I don't know if it would be practical to use your phone or a computer.  I take notes with a pen in a hardbound notebook, so it's permanent and immediate.  I can literally show my notes to others in the meeting so they can see they are accurate.

I developed this habit in my profession - for talking with customers - so the customers can see I am listening and making note of what they say, and capturing specific details.  Like a waiter who writes down your order - you can believe he will get it right.

It works the same way in a legal setting - everyone present can see that their words are being heard and written down.  If I later say, "I heard Ms. Matt say such-and-such.", they're less likely to say, "That's not what I said!", because it's clear I wrote it down at the time, and I'm reading it back as close to word-for-word as possible - at least the key stuff.  My credibility goes up and the other party's goes down, because I am relying on my notes not my memory.  (Of course if my notes don't agree with everyone else's memory they could accuse me of falsifying it, but that has never happened - what I read back sounds right to everyone, because it is right.)

I wouldn't suggest letting any electronic gadgets become a distraction.

[david]

When I started using a recorder and camera I made sure ex knew it. She keeps her distance now so I really don't have anything to present in that area. It was more to protect me from any more false allegations.

I haven't been taking notes at the eval. I think it might be a good idea the next time.

[david]

I picked the boys up yesterday at school. Ex had them this weekend. She talked to them and told them that their dad wants to take them out of the school they are in now and send them to a horrible school. I kid you not. They wanted to know why their mom would say something like that. She had some twisted story that the school they are in now would kick them out after I got more time with them. S15 said that he told her that it didn't make any sense. He said common sense would not have the school do what she said. She replied that common sense had nothing to with it. S15 said he eventually just stopped talking to her because she wasn't making any sense at all and he really doesn't try talking to hwer when she gets like that. S10 chimed in and agreed with S15. Kind of made me feel good that they get it. We have another meeting this Thursday. It was supposed to be in two more weeks but ex wanted it moved up. That was fine with me. I actually printed out the state law and it says exactly what my atty and the school already told me. Our first meeting it was brought up and I explained the law, gave a copy of the law to both parties, and explained that my atty said the same thing. It's amazing that she is still sticking to her story. And she used to say I was pig headed. I guess that was projection too.

[Matt]

What law did you print out?

Not saying this is what you should do, but if it was me, I would come to the next meeting loaded for bear.

"I'm done playing around.  I expect you to write the truth down, and e-mail it to both kids, with a copy to me and to the CE.  The truth is that what you told them is not the case - the law does not say that and I have no intention of putting them in a 'horrible school'.  I no longer trust you to tell them the truth, so I need proof that you have told them that in writing, and I will check to make sure you don't tell them that what you write isn't true.

"If you do not do that within the next 24 hours, I will assume that you are continuing to tell the kids things you know are false, in order to alienate them from me, and I will file a motion as soon as I can - within a few days - to end your contact with the kids until you have been diagnosed and have received the treatment you need so you can deal with them in an honest and positive way."

I did something like this once - a very different issue but the point is I used a meeting with a neutral authority figure and my ex to set an absolutely firm boundary with very short-term consequences if she did not comply.  It worked.  I was called a bully and told that this wasn't the best way to handle it - not by the psychologist who was present by the way - he supported me in this - but at some point, if you've made your best effort to play nice, and the behavior doesn't stop, I think you need to lay down the law and mean it.

[david]

I printed the Pa state law on education and gave it to ex and the custody evaluator at our first joint meeting. I also explained that I had spoken to, I gave the specific name, a person at the school main office and he said that I was correct. I also said that my atty assured me that what I was saying was correct. I went further explaining that I would have my atty write up something that would say exactly what I was told by the school. I would then give it to ex for her atty to look over. Once her atty agreed we would both sign it and my atty would take it to the courthouse to make it part of the court order. I would pay the entire expense. The sceond meeting she insisted the same thing she said before. The custody evaluator didn't say much but quickly moved past the subject. I did say that we had already discussed this at the first meeting and I thought it was resolved. I wrote a one page proposal for modifications to our current custody schedule. I am going to hand that to ex and the evaluator at our next meeting. It addreses every single issue ex brought up and every issue I brought up for a grand total of 5.

I also wrote another paper with examples showing things that have occured in the past up to the present. I even have emails showing where an agreement was reached and ex tried to disregard the agreement. My favorite is one in which we agreed to switch mothers day weekend and fathers day weekend a while back. It was clearly stated with times and dates. Ex showed up on fathers day demanding the boys. The only way it was resolved was with police presence. I received an email days later saying, " I don't understand why I agreed to switching mothers and fathers day weekends."

[ForeverDad]

My lawyer's refrain for nearly every one of my complaints, ":)on't deviate from the order."

For every year in my memory, Mother's Day has been on my weekend and 5 weeks later Father's Day has been on her weekend.  And every year she's complained about it when she has to hand over our son on her weekend.  I've been wondering if ex and I should switch weekends permanently if that's going to be the case for the next 5 years.  Is that how those two holidays are arranged, that parents have to be on the correct alternating weekends?

[Matt]

We don't "switch weekends".  If the kids are with me on Mother's Day - as they were recently - and either their mom or the kids want to do something, I just let them arrange that - they're old enough to arrange it with her - or when they were younger I let her decide what she wanted to do.  If she wanted me to drop them off at noon and pick them up again at 5:00, I said fine, and that's what we did.

Same thing the other way - if they were with her I might pick them up and let them take me to a movie or whatever they wanted to do.  Doesn't have to be a switch of days.

E-mail helps because it leaves a clear record of what was agreed to.  Any verbal agreement is likely to backfire - no matter how clear it is, she can always say she remembers it differently.

[ForeverDad]

Hmm, periodically I comment that Matt's ex is more passive aggressive than mine who is possessive aggressive.  If my son's schedule was that relaxed my ex would be pressuring my son more and more over time.  So each situation is a bit different, same basic issues but exhibiting different levels of conflict/discord and meriting tweaked approaches.

[Matt]

Hmm, periodically I comment that Matt's ex is more passive aggressive than mine who is possessive aggressive.  If my son's schedule was that relaxed my ex would be pressuring my son more and more over time.  So each situation is a bit different, same basic issues but exhibiting different levels of conflict/discord and meriting tweaked approaches.

Yeah, very true.

Before I ever heard of BPD, the way I described my then-wife's behavior was super-passive-aggressive.

And what works when dealing with one person may be different than what works for someone else, even if they both have BPD... .

[david]

 Last Easter was my Easter. The holiday is split 50/50. Easter fell on her weekend last year. Ex complained in an email that the boys were being exchanged to much during the holidays and wanted only one exchange. She actually proposed the schedule which had all the exchanges and I agreed. I looked at the calendar and saw that this year Easter would fall on my weekend so I proposed that she have the entire weekend including Easter last year and I would have the entire weekend this year. She said no and we used the orginal proposal which is the one she complaibned about. I had the boys last Easter. Well this year she couldn't take the boys so she offered them to me and I accepted. Negative engagement is still engagement.