Third joint eval meeting today...

[VIDEO: "What is parental alienation?"]

... . and it was a doozy. Evauator wanted us to compromise. I sttod firm on what I thought best for the kids. He questioned me a few times and I simply explained That I wanted more time during the school year so I could help the boys with their homewrok. It was that simple. They do 905 of their homework with me. That was the same last year too. Ex wanted to trade the summer for the extra days during the school year. I said the summer has worked well for 4 years now and I saw no need to change things. Ex insisted she wanted more time since she could not take the boys on her planned vacations because a week was not enough time. We are week on/ week off in the summer. I replied that I had no proble if she needed 10 days or two weeks during the summer and that I would have the same available to me. This way we still maintained 50/50. The evaluator then focused on ex's concerns. She has continued to say the boys will get kicked out of their school. The evaluator handed me papers that ex gave her. I already had them from their school. He then talked to ex saying he read it three times and could find nothing that says what she is claiming. This went on for 5 to 10 minutes back and forth. Finally I got a chance to sppek. I explained I went to the school administration building and got the same papers. In addition I also got the state law from them too. I read it and it is quite clear that ex's assertions are not true. Ex then switched to the boys not having health insurance. That is the same old and incorrect story she is sticking too. I didn't back down. Then she threatened that if I got more time she would have to pay me so much child support that she couldn't afford to live in her house and would have to move out of the school district and the children would suffer. I simply stated that was not true since she is making more money than our combined salaries when we were together and we had a bigger mortgage then. It was getting near the end so I said I had some papers that I had written to try to show the difficulty I have had for years now. I puuled three copies out , one for each of us. Ex saw one of the papers which was in her handwriting. She recognized it as from her journal she left when she ran away. She freaked and went on a tirad about how abusive I am and was. She then said when she left I copied her journal and wallpapered the house with it ? She then threatened the evaluator saying if he took the papers she would contact her atty and stop this charade. She refused to take the copy I made for her. The evaluator stood up and took one step in her direction. That stopped ex from her tirade. He calmly explained that both of us are allowed to give him anything that we deem important or critical. He said she didn't have to take anything from me that she didn't want to. He then questioned why I did this since this was our last meeting. That I did not realize. I thought there was one more meeting. I explained that if he read the papers and thought he needed another meeting I would pay for it myself. I didn't think he would need another meeting and calmly stated that what happened the last 5 minutes or so, I was refering to ex's charade,  was exactly what I had written about and when he reads it he will see what I am saying. I further asked him to give me the papers back and removed the page from her journal. I said it wasn't really needed but it helped bolster what I had written. Since she was so upset about that I figured I would just remove it. I explained that the last two meetings ex said many things that were simply untrue. I said I didn't know what to say or how when it was happening so I decided to write it down. The evaluator said we were done for the day and I said goodbye and left. Ex followed behind. I had my recorder on just in case and she saw me turn it on. She left me alone. Her journal page only said she had lots of anger and misplaced it against her husband, children, and other people. All her journal page was doing was agreeing with everything I had written myself. She has alienated 11 cousins on her side of the family that our two boys no longer see because of that. She has alienated her own brothers and sisters. She has alienated one of her own sons. And most of the nasty things she has said about all of them she has said in front of our two boys. Everything I wrote could be confirmed by asking our two boys and I did write that. There was about a dozen different things in it that really can be considered abusive by almost anyones standards. I listed everything that she said in the meeting that was false and explained how it could be confirmed and offered further proof for it all. Next step is either he calls us back for another meeting or he sends his report to our attys. That will take about a month.

[david]

... . and it was a doozy. Evauator wanted us to compromise. I sttod firm on what I thought best for the kids. He questioned me a few times and I simply explained That I wanted more time during the school year so I could help the boys with their homewrok. It was that simple. They do 905 of their homework with me. That was the same last year too. Ex wanted to trade the summer for the extra days during the school year. I said the summer has worked well for 4 years now and I saw no need to change things. Ex insisted she wanted more time since she could not take the boys on her planned vacations because a week was not enough time. We are week on/ week off in the summer. I replied that I had no proble if she needed 10 days or two weeks during the summer and that I would have the same available to me. This way we still maintained 50/50. The evaluator then focused on ex's concerns. She has continued to say the boys will get kicked out of their school. The evaluator handed me papers that ex gave her. I already had them from their school. He then talked to ex saying he read it three times and could find nothing that says what she is claiming. This went on for 5 to 10 minutes back and forth. Finally I got a chance to sppek. I explained I went to the school administration building and got the same papers. In addition I also got the state law from them too. I read it and it is quite clear that ex's assertions are not true. Ex then switched to the boys not having health insurance. That is the same old and incorrect story she is sticking too. I didn't back down. Then she threatened that if I got more time she would have to pay me so much child support that she couldn't afford to live in her house and would have to move out of the school district and the children would suffer. I simply stated that was not true since she is making more money than our combined salaries when we were together and we had a bigger mortgage then. It was getting near the end so I said I had some papers that I had written to try to show the difficulty I have had for years now. I puuled three copies out , one for each of us. Ex saw one of the papers which was in her handwriting. She recognized it as from her journal she left when she ran away. She freaked and went on a tirad about how abusive I am and was. She then said when she left I copied her journal and wallpapered the house with it ? She then threatened the evaluator saying if he took the papers she would contact her atty and stop this charade. She refused to take the copy I made for her. The evaluator stood up and took one step in her direction. That stopped ex from her tirade. He calmly explained that both of us are allowed to give him anything that we deem important or critical. He said she didn't have to take anything from me that she didn't want to. He then questioned why I did this since this was our last meeting. That I did not realize. I thought there was one more meeting. I explained that if he read the papers and thought he needed another meeting I would pay for it myself. I didn't think he would need another meeting and calmly stated that what happened the last 5 minutes or so, I was refering to ex's charade,  was exactly what I had written about and when he reads it he will see what I am saying. I further asked him to give me the papers back and removed the page from her journal. I said it wasn't really needed but it helped bolster what I had written. Since she was so upset about that I figured I would just remove it. I explained that the last two meetings ex said many things that were simply untrue. I said I didn't know what to say or how when it was happening so I decided to write it down. The evaluator said we were done for the day and I said goodbye and left. Ex followed behind. I had my recorder on just in case and she saw me turn it on. She left me alone. Her journal page only said she had lots of anger and misplaced it against her husband, children, and other people. All her journal page was doing was agreeing with everything I had written myself. She has alienated 11 cousins on her side of the family that our two boys no longer see because of that. She has alienated her own brothers and sisters. She has alienated one of her own sons. And most of the nasty things she has said about all of them she has said in front of our two boys. Everything I wrote could be confirmed by asking our two boys and I did write that. There was about a dozen different things in it that really can be considered abusive by almost anyones standards. I listed everything that she said in the meeting that was false and explained how it could be confirmed and offered further proof for it all. Next step is either he calls us back for another meeting or he sends his report to our attys. That will take about a month.

[PinkieV]

Way to go!  You remained calm, stuck to your guns for the sake of your kids, and presented the information you needed him to see.

[Matt]

If there are no more of these meetings, then what is the next step in the process?

Sounds like you handled it well and were strong and consistent, and it was a chance for the evaluator to see your ex's temper.

Maybe your attorney could give the evaluator a call and feel him out as to how he sees things now... . ?

[david]

If the evaluator wants another meeting he will contact us. If not he will send his report to both attys. He has 4 to 6 weeks to do that. I originally filed last August and wanted to get this school year fixed. That didn't happen because ex delayed things as much as possible. It should be resolved before the next school year. S15 is old enough in Pa to decide for himself. I really don't want the boys split up. I would be concerned for S11 being on his own.

Once the report is sent to each atty we either agree to the recommendation (ex and I) or we go to court.

I am still documenting as it has become second nature for me.

[Matt]

Sounds encouraging.

The way it worked in my case was, the CE wrote a report with recommendations, and they were sensible, but he said 50/50 for now.  (That was 2008, when my kids were S9 and D11.)  But he also said that over time it might be best for S9 to spend more time with me, since he seemed to respond better to me than to his mom.

Rather than agree to his recommendations, or oppose them, I used them as the basis for a proposal.  Each of his recommendations, I added some specifics, like a specific schedule, how the exchanges should be done, etc.  Then I also added some other issues I thought were important but were not mentioned in his report.  So my proposal was not in conflict with the CE's recommendations, but not identical them either.

My wife's lawyer agreed to most of what I wrote, but pushed back in a few areas, and we negotiated those issues - took less than an hour.  The result was pretty good - better than if I had just taken the CE's report and agreed to it as it was, but without the risk, cost or stress of openly opposing his report (which was mostly helpful).

From what you've said, David, I'll be surprised if the CE takes your side on all the issues, but I'll also be surprised if his report isn't mostly helpful.  It might be worthwhile, while you're waiting for the report, to come up with all the issues you think are very important, and be prepared to offer some additions and specifics to whatever the CE recommends.  If both attorneys are reasonable, you can probably get to a settlement based around the CE's recommendations, without going to court - one or two settlement conferences between the parties and/or the attorneys can produce an agreement that the court will then bless.

[ForeverDad]

Once the report is sent to each atty we either agree to the recommendation (ex and I) or we go to court.

... .   and she might acquiesce just before or just after you appear court.  Imagine her possible response if you can get the judge to restate your request, I seem to recall you stating that she would deflate a bit when quizzed by the judge?

[david]

Ex will fight to the end. Then she will place blame on someone or others. I know I will get blame. I expect it. I think that is what started to happen when she threatened the evauluator with her atty.

Her behavior is consistent in a weird kind of way. If she thought she was "winning" she would play the victim and I the abusive ex. That's what she did at the first meeting. I was able to point out the major lies and I also had evidence of the claims I was making. I think the third meeting she realized things were not going her way and the anger came out.

I think I made one mistake during the third meeting. The evaluator gave a hypothetical that I have majority of time and ex doesn't pay any child support. My atty drilled in my head that I should not discuss child support with ex. I simply said I wasn't going to discuss child support. The evaluator questioned me several times and Kept saying the same thing. Thinking about it now I believe he wanted to see if I agreed what would ex do.

[ForeverDad]

That's what my attorney instructed me, make it about the child, that majority time with you is best and avoid any responses that might make it seem "mean tightwad dad is trying to get out from paying child support".

I did it too well, I got majority time (during the school year) and my child support ended.  However the order stated that since no financials were submitted then ex wasn't ordered to pay CS.  I guess the magistrate ignored the prior times in court where ex never submitted financials and yet she was credited minimum wage and I had to pay CS.  As much as the order commented on mother's bad behaviors and nothing bad about father, it's curious that mother kept equal time in summers and no CS because this time the court wanted incomes.

I know it was up to my lawyer to require submission of financials which he didn't do, but the parenting time was more important and even if CS was ordered it would have been minimal.

I just got a call from children's services a couple days ago, ex is applying for Medicaid for son.  The agency worker asked for my medical insurance card which covers my son and I verified that the Medicaid account was okay as secondary even when I have majority time 3/4 of the year.  Apparently they're handing out aid like candy.  I heard an ad where a candidate's daughter said she is not old enough to work yet but already owes over $55,000 as her portion of the national debt.  (Debt per taxpayer is over $150,000.)  No wonder it's so high.

[david]

Speaking of health insurance. Ex is a nurse at a hospital. She has the kids under her plan. It is a better plan than mine at thsi time. She insisted if she lost majority of time and could no longer deduct the kids on her taf returen the children would be dropped from her plan. I wrote a proposal for every issue ex brought up and I brought up and gave it to evaluator and her. She refused to take it. I wrote that her place of employment be required to abide by the Affordable Care Act. I know what she was saying was not true but I put the blame on her employeer. I have found that agreeing with her, when it is possible, and finding a solution is the best course of action. It shuts her up. I like the quiet.

[livednlearned]

Evauator wanted us to compromise.

Like Matt said, the evaluator might not takes your side on all issues. His report might be mostly helpful, but if he thinks it's possible for the two of you to compromise, it sounds like he doesn't understand BPD.

Maybe the last meeting will sway him, but I think most people would feel upset to see a page of his or her journal made public. N/BPDx kept trying to introduce an email I wrote 3 years before we divorced, and it irritates the judge each time N/BPDx tries to have it entered in court.

It's hard to tell from these evaluations what is going to happen. And sometimes even when CEs and others agree, they end up proposing something so conservative it barely makes a difference.

If the boys were struggling in school, that would probably be the key reason for the evaluator to suggest changing the schedule, imo.

[Matt]

Evaluator wanted us to compromise.

His report might be mostly helpful, but if he thinks it's possible for the two of you to compromise, it sounds like he doesn't understand BPD.

Yeah, "compromising with a BPD sufferer" is kind of like "dancing with a cow" - good idea, wrong partner.

But... . once the process gets near its end, and there are authority figures all around - your lawyer, her lawyer, and maybe a judge in the room, or the knowledge that if an agreement isn't reached she will be in front of the judge soon - then things can change a lot.  Someone who just isn't capable of seeing that her point of view isn't the only one, may see things differently, especially if her lawyer is very frank with her:  "You either agree to this, or the judge will decide, and you won't like what the judge will do - it will be much worse than this."

I had that experience twice.  The first time was when our divorce settled.  After a year and a half of refusal to consider compromise - accusations, threats, etc. - when we were literally 24 hours away from our trial, and my case was strong - the CE report plus a police report plus other stuff - I'm sure her attorney told her "You better settle!", and it wasn't that hard.

My lawyer and I were careful not to present anything as two opposing sides - "You want X and I want Y - now give me Y!" - but rather as minor modifications to the CE report, presented in neutral terms - "The CE report says exchanges should be at noon Saturday.  Let's keep it simple by having all exchanges at Mom's house.  Dad will offer to do the driving all the time - that seems to work out well."  (While what I'm thinking is, "I don't want her anywhere near my house because then she might go bonkers and get violent or make accusations.  So I'll do all the driving and she won't have any reason to come to my place."

In that environment - court looming, evidence that she didn't want presented, two professionals in the room, the CE's report as our focus, and proposals to add specifics or make small changes to the CE's recommendations - it was pretty easy to get a settlement the day before the trial.

The second time was a couple years later when I needed to move, and proposed to take the kids.  I offered to pay for Ex to move to the new town too if she chose.  She fought tooth and nail for months, but ultimately settled - "compromised" - because of two factors.  First, there was a neutral professional present - a voice of authority - so if she was unreasonable it could work against her.  And second, I had leverage - evidence that she did not want put into the public record - and I was very clear that if we didn't settle that day - after eight months of trying - I would file a motion the next day and disclose that damaging evidence.

So in both cases, there were consequences less than 24 hours away, and professionals in the room.  I was able to be the bad guy - always speaking politely and listening while she talked, not interrupting - but very clear about what I was saying - because others were available to be the good guys that helped her get over her reluctance to budge.

I think in your case, these same elements may lead to compromise.  If your choreograph it carefully, the cow will appear to be dancing.

[livednlearned]

One thing I'm kinda noticing with Family Law stories is that sometimes court thinks that BPD parents are, at worse, simply immature. It's like court patronizes them, instead of doling out swift and appropriate consequences. Even when there are egregious cases when the BPD behaviors have obvious effects on the kids, there is this hedging that goes on.

That's what it sounds like the evaluator was doing in david's example. Yes, she lied. Yes, she got angry. Yes, her stories don't add up. But how is that impacting the kids? Are the kids suffering? Is their future in danger if they continue the current arrangement?

I don't mean to be a debbie downer, david. Maybe the evaluator came away thinking wow, this woman is nuts. The kids need more time with dad.

It just seems like there is a checklist and unless everything is checked, over and over and over, very little changes. My judge got to see my ex's crazy behavior right there in the court room and there is a long, documented history of disordered behavior, and the judge has ruled in my favor multiple times. And still, each time, he is so conservative, giving ex a little more rope each time but still giving him rope.

Feeling the burn a little    

[Matt]

That's what it sounds like the evaluator was doing in david's example. Yes, she lied. Yes, she got angry. Yes, her stories don't add up. But how is that impacting the kids? Are the kids suffering? Is their future in danger if they continue the current arrangement?

Yeah, I think that's a huge issue in many - maybe most - of our cases.

And these questions aren't asked out loud.  But they seem to be the logic that is used.  So this logic probably needs to be dealt with by anticipating it and bringing information that answers these questions, without waiting for them to be asked.

I think there are two ways to do that.

First, you can bring information as to how the kids are already being impacted.  That may be hard to do.  Maybe their grades have suffered.  Maybe their counselor will give a report, or some other witness who can say "Mom's behavior is impacting the kids."  In my case, the kids were doing pretty well - because I had made it my primary focus to help them through this, and because I found a good counselor for them.  I could say, "They're doing well because of me.", but the court would only hear, "They're doing well.", and I couldn't prove much of anything.  But maybe you can find ways to show the court that Mom's behavior has already impacted them... .

Second, you can bring information that proves - not that Mom's behavior will hurt them in the future, because nobody can prove that - but that Mom's behavior will put them at high risk in the future - that can be proved beyond any question.

There are two parts of this:  the diagnosis and the data.  I don't remember if your ex has already been diagnosed, but if not, it's possible the CE may be able to do that, or instruct her (or both of you) to get objective evaluations - the MMPI-2 or another objective instrument that will enable the CE - if he is a psychologist - to diagnose what problems Mom has.  You can't refuse to be evaluated too, or you'll look unfair - better to agree that both of you will be evaluated, and insist on objective testing.

Let's assume Mom's results show BPD and/or some other psychological disorder, and that your won't be perfect but nothing too serious.  Then you have to show that being raised by someone with BPD puts the kids at high risk.  There is tons of research showing this, but you probably have to find an expert to testify about it - a psychologist who has studied the issue and is willing to testify about the research.  This may be expensive.  I saved the money by telling my wife's lawyer, "If we don't settle I am prepared to bring an expert to testify about how her 'multiple psychological disorders' will impact the kids long-term."  But I never actually paid someone to come and testify - it would have been expensive and by that point I didn't think it was necessary.

If you show the other side that you are thinking in these terms, and if push comes to shove you'll make this case, that may inspire them to come to the table.  If they call your bluff, it could add a lot of cost, but it should be very effective.

[david]

The paper I handed in the last meeting was 4 pages long. I sectioned it in paragraphs and kept each paragraph brief. I just gave facts. Each fact ended with how it affected our boys. Our boys haven't seen their cousins from her side of the family after she "banished "them. She wrote a blistering letter to three of the cousins and praised me in the letter. I included that and made no comment except our two boys haven't seen their cousins since that time.

She also had a fight with one of her brothers. When  she ran away she stayed there for 6 to 10 months. After the fight our boys have never seen those four cousins. I can't take them to see them because they are on her side of the family and I am the bad guy.

I pointed out things ex said in the meeting. One was where she said S15 refused to do his math test corrections at her place because he said he wanted to do them at dads since I am a math teacher. That was her reason for why S15 doesn't do his homework at her place. That sounds all well and good. However, S15 doesn't bring his math tests or quizes home. He is in an honors class and all the teacher does is hand them out after they are graded and they go over them . He then collects them. Parents can see them if they request it. When S15 was in 7th grade (two years ago) his teacher had the students take their tests and quizes home to do corrections. She gave 50% credit if they did that.

I also pointed out that the last time we were in court I was awarded more time because ex refused to take our oldest to karate classes even though she was paying for it. Karate was on Thursday and I was given Thursday so I could take him. I did. The class was changed to Wednesday. I sent an email to ex informing her. She replied okay. She still didn't take him on Wednesday. I tried to switch days from Thursday to Wednesday. She said no. Without going to court I saw no solution. Our oldest son fell behind and got discouraged. Ex continued paying for the class until the contract ran out.

I think that last story went well with the fact that the evaluator asked the boys to describe a typical day at their moms and at their dads. The eval said it stood out that both boys described a typical day at their moms and never included her in their description. They described a typical day with me and all the things we do together including me making sure they complete their homework. Their schooling is the main reason I asked for more time. It's in the petition for modification and I have copies of every homework from last year and this year. The boys do over 90% of all their homewrok when they are with me. The small amount that our youngest does at her place is usually incorrect. I check it and have him do corrections. Ex knows all about this through emails I sent a while back and has done nothing to help either boy. My atty has last years copies.

I gave the evaluator several of S11 homework throughout the course of this year. I highlighted what was incorrect and I also gave copies after they were corrected. Ex signs and dates each homework and so do I. The mistakes are glaring and if she really looked at it and spent no more than 3 minutes she would see the mistakes. I wrote that I believed homework should be done completely and correctly to instill that thought in a young childs head.

[Matt]

Two things stand out in your last post:  education and truth.

The truth part we've discussed a lot.  Courts should give a lot of weight to which parent tells the truth, because when a parent blatantly lies during the court process, that pretty clearly shows there's something wrong - if you're doing what's right you don't need to lie about it, and psychologically-healthy people usually don't lie about important things.  But from what I've seen - in my own case and many here - as LnL suggests, courts tend to overlook dishonesty pretty often.  I still think you are wise to point out each false statement, and back it up with evidence when you can, but that alone might not make a big difference in the case - it should but it might not.

The other issue is different - education.  In my case, it worked in my favor a little - both kids said I helped them with their homework and their mom usually didn't - not as big an issue as in your case because both my kids were getting their homework done most of the time anyway.  In your case, it's a big issue because your kids haven't always done a good job on their homework, and it's very clear from what you have said - and even from what your ex says, that they don't get their homework done at her house because you're not around to help them with it - that being with you is much better for their education.  I'd be pretty optimistic that this issue will help you a lot with the court.

Are these the two big issues, or is there anything else you think the court will be focused on?

Have you looked up the 9 criteria usually used - based on Minnesota's court guidelines - and scored yourself vs. your ex on all 9?  One strategy is to make sure to provide information which will make a good case on each of the issues, so the court will see you as positive on all of them and won't assume that most of them are even... .

[Matt]

1 The wishes of the child’s parent or parents as to custody;

2 The reasonable preference of the child as to custody, if the court deems the child to be of sufficient age to express preference;

3 The child’s primary caretaker;

4 The intimacy of the relationship between each parent and the child;

5 The interaction and interrelationship of the child with a parent or parents, siblings, and any other person who may significantly affect the child’s best interests;

6 The child’s adjustment to home, school, and community;

7 The length of time the child has lived in a stable, satisfactory environment and the desirability of maintaining continuity;

8 The permanence, as a family unit, of the existing or proposed custodial home;

9 The mental and physical health of all individuals involved; except that a disability of a proposed custodian or the child shall not be determinative of the custody of the child, unless the proposed custody arrangement is not in the best interest of the child;

10 The capacity and disposition of the parties to give the child love, affection, and guidance, and to continue educating and raising the child in the child’s culture and religion or creed, if any;

11 The child’s cultural background;

12 The effect on the child of the actions of an abuser, if related to domestic abuse that has occurred between the parents or between a parent and another individual, whether or not the individual alleged to have committed domestic abuse is or ever was a family or household member of the parent; and

13 The disposition of each parent to encourage and permit frequent and continuing contact by the other parent with the child.