Advice needed, are we at the end of our relationship?

[Family Court Strategies: When Your Partner Has BPD OR NPD Traits.]

Hi all,

I have been seeing a girl with BPD for some months now and am trying to come to terms with her recent behaviour.

Last night we were talking about the notion of couples and she told me how she envies them. I felt like that would have been a great queue to ask her if she'd accept me as her boyfriend, given how great everything is going and how our affection and proven commitment to each other is basically the same as bf/gf, just without the title . To which she replied to the tune of "you're sweet and make the best boyfriend to any girl, but I'd prefer to have fun and see many guys - not be tied to one!".

That being said, she has told me numerous times that she hates being single, hates knowing that she has never had a boyfriend and wants a boyfriend, however she can't come to terms with why any guy would like her, let alone why I would want to be with her.

This creates a huge barrier. So in many ways it's this girl going completely full circle. I just don't know if this is her splitting on the topic to protect her emotions, or is this how she really feels... .

Deep down, my intuition tells me that she wants a relationship, however she may well just pushing me away out of fear of me leaving. Or, perhaps she is trying to prolong my attention to her by telling me that I can't be her bf. Every night for the last few months we have been talking on the phone or dating in person, I can't imagine how she would have had the time to see anyone else... .

I want to protect my own feelings and I almost feel like I'm at the halfway point of the bridge, in that I've invested so many feelings into her, met her family, educated myself in BPD and have become a great communicator and am supportive of her therapy. Moving forward, it would be heartbreaking to leave. But on the flip side, perhaps I'm completely wrong and she will never accept my offer of a relationship no matter how much affection and care I give her and I'm only setting myself up for further months of disappointment.

Any advice would be great!

Sorry, english isn't my first language.

[fubsalot]

Hi all,

I have been seeing a girl with BPD for some months now and am trying to come to terms with her recent behaviour.

Last night we were talking about the notion of couples and she told me how she envies them. I felt like that would have been a great queue to ask her if she'd accept me as her boyfriend, given how great everything is going and how our affection and proven commitment to each other is basically the same as bf/gf, just without the title . To which she replied to the tune of "you're sweet and make the best boyfriend to any girl, but I'd prefer to have fun and see many guys - not be tied to one!".

That being said, she has told me numerous times that she hates being single, hates knowing that she has never had a boyfriend and wants a boyfriend, however she can't come to terms with why any guy would like her, let alone why I would want to be with her.

This creates a huge barrier. So in many ways it's this girl going completely full circle. I just don't know if this is her splitting on the topic to protect her emotions, or is this how she really feels... .

Deep down, my intuition tells me that she wants a relationship, however she may well just pushing me away out of fear of me leaving. Or, perhaps she is trying to prolong my attention to her by telling me that I can't be her bf. Every night for the last few months we have been talking on the phone or dating in person, I can't imagine how she would have had the time to see anyone else... .

I want to protect my own feelings and I almost feel like I'm at the halfway point of the bridge, in that I've invested so many feelings into her, met her family, educated myself in BPD and have become a great communicator and am supportive of her therapy. Moving forward, it would be heartbreaking to leave. But on the flip side, perhaps I'm completely wrong and she will never accept my offer of a relationship no matter how much affection and care I give her and I'm only setting myself up for further months of disappointment.

Any advice would be great!

Sorry, english isn't my first language.

[woodsposse]

 

Welcome to the site.  No worries on your English (I could totally understand ya!)   

You mention that she has BPD.  do you know for sure she is diagnosed? 

Whether or not she is diagnosed BPD or not, from what you write (in my humble opinion) is sort of a non issue at this point.

I appreciate your frankness with her asking about wanting to be B/F and G/F... . and I can also appreciate her reply. From the way you post it - it sounds like she gave you her answer pretty straight on.

I understand the uneasy pain you may feel about investing your emoitions... . but, from what you write, it pretty much sounds like she is being pretty up front with you.

Are there any other things she may be doing or saying with you which lead you to believe something other than what she is stating with you in such a direct manner?

[fubsalot]

Thank you for the reply.

Yes, she was very frank one month in about her BPD. She details all her symptoms and told me all about self-perceived dark past and how she has gotten everything back together.

Some of the things she has told me before

1. she has a huge fear of being alone and that my contact makes her happy

2. I'm the only guy she is invested in, no others (I tend to believe that I'm the only guy romantically linked, but of course she chats and flirts with others)

3. She is finished with her destructive reliance on sex and alcohol

4. Her parents are really supporting "us" and she wants it too

5. She told me that the reason she as stopped hooking up is because she wants more structure in her reality

many other things that tell me that she has overcome the destructive barrier associated to her BPD and truly wants one. This is why I was so surprised.

[Narellan]

  fubsalot I'm glad you're here! From what you describe in your second post she is being very upfront about her BPD. She is also saying she doesn't want a " relationship" regardless of what her parents want or what is best for her. It's really difficult when people have differing ideas about the "relationship" I recently split with my BPD guy and we were definitely in a relationship in every sense of the word. He had introduced me as his partner to his family and posted photos of us together in FB declaring we were a couple. Throughout the relationship he referred to me as the very best friend he'd ever had, the best lover he'd ever had, soulmate. He told me he had waited his whole life for me.

Then he split and said were just friends. Although he'd half an hour earlier told me he loved me, when I questioned that he replied " I love being with you"

We have been NC since then, ten weeks now.

He hated the word relationship and always reinforced the friendship aspect. As a friend I would remain in his life forever, as opposed to splitting up and never seeing each other again( abandonment)

I encourage you to read and research BPD as this push/pull I experienced is a common trait.

My only suggestion would be to really listen to her words. She doesn't want a boyfriend. I should have done that and saved myself 6 months of pain and grief. I look forward to reading any future posts from you. Keep us updated. We are all here to support you.

[fubsalot]

Hi Narellan,

It's a pleasure to be here! 

I totally understand what you mean about identifying as best friends, but to the observers such as both of our parents, siblings and friends, we are a couple. That's how things have shaped up.

I guess I didn't really explain something before. At this point in my life, I'm really interested in finding a girlfriend and having only one girl who I care for. I'm so far passed "going out for fun!". Similarly, I would feel horrible dating more than one girl at a time.

So at this point, I think something has to give.

1. Either I play the "long game", have faith that somewhere there is truth in what she has told me before, hope that she changes her mind about a relationship and commits to us.

2. I have to look past how much I want to be with her. Look past the fact that she embodies my perfect partner and accept that due to things out of my control, it simply can't and won't happen.

With 1, I may be heartbroken when the day comes when it surfaces that she is intimate with one or more guys and that behaviour won't change no matter how much more affection I offer her than those guys.

With 2, I will be heartbroken knowing what I have had to leave her behind to protect my own interests in moving forward.

I have told myself that I will give it two weeks to a month to see if anything changes, then I might have to tell her that I can't continue seeing her (then pray she doesn't self-harm and abuse herself). I don't think continued friendship would work as we usually spend no less than 2-4 hours a day communication.

Thank you for your support so far

[Narellan]

It's great to have a plan! Good for you. I notice that both your options result in you being heartbroken. Can you see that you posted that? It might be worth reading posts on the L 2 board " undecided" or even L3" detaching" just to get some clarity in what you're going through, or may go through down the track. If she's not having therapy ( sorry if I missed that in your post) , it's unlikely things will change in her life. If she is having therapy and wants to work at the relationship there are lots of resources on here that will give you tools for better communication.

In my relationship, everyone also thought we were a couple, that's what he portrayed. And we were but it all changed in the blink of an eye.

Before you get too enmeshed in the BPD stuff, have a really long talk to her about what she wants. No point just one of you being in the relationship. Take care 

[fubsalot]

Before you get too enmeshed in the BPD stuff, have a really long talk to her about what she wants. No point just one of you being in the relationship. Take care 

Hi Narellan, last night we had a lengthy discussion over boundaries and expectations moving forward, which I thought was well received. I'm hoping to try and sustain a positive friendship with her and detach from those feelings of partnership which I wanted.

We discussed everything from seeing others, cutting out intimacy, supporting each other, of course not having hard feelings and being positive about a relationship.

I was however concerned when I discussed the probability of going out this Saturday night with two other girls, as an example of her accepting the new boundaries. To that she confessed her jealousy and conceded her shame in expecting a relationship but not being able offer it back. Consequently she feels great sadness when she sees guys that she likes move on. Obviously the irony here is painful for the both of us!

At this point, I can see great small progress in moving on for both of us. I am really hoping that we can remain great friends and have that friendly contact, but I will need to expect her to be able to allow me to move on to other girls.

What do you think about that?

[Narellan]

I think it's great that you've talked and set boundaries! Well done.

In regards to you going out Saturday night, I wonder what motivated you to tell her that. We're you in some way trying to gauge her reaction? It's good she expressed herself here, and your plan is good as long as you stand firm with your boundaries. She may try to still sabotage your new friendships with girls I her jealously... . You can address that if and when it happens. Then you'll need to decide whether continued contact with her is holding you back.

At this stage, if you feel like going out and having fun, do it. Do it for you though not to get a reaction from her. I would keep my private and social life private and not ever discuss this with her as it leaves the door open for her to do the same. And I can see a whole world of pain for you if that happens. Light contact at this stage is the way to go. Good for you, I can sense you feel like you've gotten a bit of closure from this talk. 

[fubsalot]

I think it's great that you've talked and set boundaries! Well done.

In regards to you going out Saturday night, I wonder what motivated you to tell her that. We're you in some way trying to gauge her reaction? 

While true, I used that as an example to see if she understood the boundaries and expectations I was looking to set moving forward. It was not a ploy to make her jealous, simply a conversational tactic I thought would work to see if my words were being understood or ignored. I believe they were understood, but who knows :/

I think lighter contact is something I'm moving forward to. I feel like a "cold turkey" approach may be detrimental to both of our emotions. Yes, she certainly has BPD which leads her to unstable feelings and therefore needs respect and support, not complete abandonment. Too many people here say "run as fast as you can", but I think that a progression from failed short term relationship to friends can work and be a good thing for both of us, if the boundaries can work. Our common interests and enjoyment of each other's company isn't something I want to walk away from, unless I concede that the boundaries are bing broken and it all becomes emotionally taxing

In retrospect, I might come to be grateful that she didn't accept my offer of a commitment, but that will just be something I'll never know... . Probably for the best.

[woodsposse]

 

Let me throw in a bit of what is going on in my world.  My GF of 18 months and I recently split up.  I won't go into the whole back story - but the short of it is we started dating very very soon after my ex-wife (diagnosed PD) split up after being together for almost 20 years.  I was in a very bad emotional state, and although, for me, the relationship was very restorative - in the long run we jumped into it too fast and too deep.

I'm not going to suggest that my GF is disordered, but she has expressed that one of the reasons she started to back off was maybe some fear of commitment.  Well... . duh... . we had taken our r/s day by day over the past 18 months to get to this point... . but if it some unsureness or questions or whatever crept in... . then if she needs to be single - that's more than fine.

But it was still buging me that we had to go our separate ways and pretend neither of us existed to each other.  I wasnt' too comfortable with that.  Maybe it was because coming out of my messed up marriage - she really was the first connection I had and to loose it was like going back to nothing.  And I don't like nothing.

But I also know that as far as mates are concerned, there are tons and tons of others out there - so to "hang on" to this one seems kinda silly.  I mean, we weren't married - and r/s drift due to no fault of anyone. Sometimes it just is.

But it does feel 'better' to have re-opened communications with her with no expectation of re-starting the relationship dynamic of BF/GF.  I'm not mad or angry or hurt we split up, it is more of a relief at this point and gives me more breathing room to enjoy my healing... . and still have the connection.

So I get wht you are saying there.  I think I really do.

[fubsalot]

Let me throw in a bit of what is going on in my world. 

So I get wht you are saying there.  I think I really do.

Thanks mate, I appreciate you sharing your story. It gives me confidence that I can support a friendship without bringing in the requirement of a bf/gf relationship dynamic.

[OnceConfused]

my friend,

Dealing with BPD is a very confusing affair. Because of their fear of abandonment, they want you near but yet they want you far so that they can keep others guys on the wing. For example, my xBPDgf was sleeping with me almost every night but yet she refused to introduce me as bf. One time at her own party , she did not even introduce me to her guy co-workers (I think she was trying to project an image of availability).

It seems clearly to me that your friend has indicated that she does not want a monogamy relationship (fear of abandonment again).  Usually, if a woman likes you much, she will exhibit the desire to be with you in a monogamous way. If she likes you but not too much, then she will exhibit the non-chalant attitude.

So, my advice to you is BE VERY CAREFUL. Don't commit yourself too deeply in this r/s yet. use the knowledge you read here to assess her to make sure she is not BPD. if she is BPD, then you will love someone who cannot be loved. Just read all the posts around here, you will see how much headache and pain the BPD partners have expressed and lived through. THere are so many good people out there , so why going after somebody that will always (i mean always) make you unhappy. Life is too short for that.

By the way, after 9 months of craziness with my xBPDgf (I even had to seek help from psychologist), I left her and guess what my life has been a BLISS ever since. I met my now wife, who is what the XBPDgf is NOT. I still break in cold sweat even after 8 years NC from her, from thinking what would happen to me, my children, my business HAD I STAYED.

so again, using the advice from my psychotherapist about my r.s with xdpdgf, "THIS IS A VERY HIGH RISK R/S"

[Grey Kitty]

Hello fubsalot, and  

I think lighter contact is something I'm moving forward to. I feel like a "cold turkey" approach may be detrimental to both of our emotions. Yes, she certainly has BPD which leads her to unstable feelings and therefore needs respect and support, not complete abandonment. Too many people here say "run as fast as you can", but I think that a progression from failed short term relationship to friends can work and be a good thing for both of us, if the boundaries can work. Our common interests and enjoyment of each other's company isn't something I want to walk away from, unless I concede that the boundaries are bing broken and it all becomes emotionally taxing

It sounds like you've decided to accept her stated inability to handle a full relationship with you (or presumably anybody else), and want to continue your friendship. Here's my $.02 about it... .

1. Learn more about BPD. Spend some time on the "Staying" board here, and read the Lessons from that board. You will benefit from support and from understanding the disorder and how people relate to someone with it. Most people are in a romantic r/s, but a few are otherwise. You will still find useful things there.

2. Given your relatively short r/s and given the self-awareness of BPD, you may find better results than this, however I have seen a pattern with our members who try to stay friends with a pwBPD after the romantic r/s ends.

That pattern is to get the same sort of BPD dynamic that they had in the r/s, often with lots of push and pull, running away, and coming back. When the "non-relationship" is ON, it is intense enough to make you not feel single or available to date... . or at least enough to make anybody in a new r/s understandably jealous.

I'd also note that even for people not subject to mental illness, breaking up by staying away for a while (weeks or months) is often needed before a friendship feel safe.

I hope it goes well for you.

 GK

[fubsalot]

As an edit to the story, I feel it's worthwhile to perhaps elaborate on what has been happening in the last few days.

Last night was a big for me. Clearly the boundaries I asked to be respected had simply been ignored in favour of her needs and very quickly the dynamic of our "friendship" returned to how it was weeks ago when it captivated me into thinking we could be something more (which was great, but now I see it as poisonous and built around need, not mutual connection (a part of me hopes that she liked me, but ignorance is bliss, hey!).

I asked to be respected for the times I needed to leave her to do things (last night I needed to train). More importantly, I stressed that even with her urges, I can't engage in her sexual needs be it online or personally.

I am starting to feel really silly about coming here and openly admitting to wanting a friendship. It can't be more apparent that I'm just an object perfectly shaped to temporarily fill the large black void of her needs. It's truly upsetting and in the perfect world, I'd love for her to call me and say "hey Fubsalot, I these last four months have been great, but I think we should have NC. It's the best for both of us and I wish you luck in the future xx"

Sadly, that's never going to happen unless I take the emotional lead. I would like to talk to her father first to see if she has an emotional support network around her for when I leave.

[Narellan]

Hey, don't be so hard on yourself. This is all part of the process.

Reading between the lines I assume you mean you had sex? That she initiated the contact and pulled you back in, not respecting your boundaries. Am I reading that right?

[fubsalot]

Hey, don't be so hard on yourself. This is all part of the process.

Reading between the lines I assume you mean you had sex? That she initiated the contact and pulled you back in, not respecting your boundaries. Am I reading that right?

Yes, we have had sex. The last time was in the mode where I thought we had something. We haven't had sex since I made the decision to attempt friendship. But in the context of her breaking the boundaries, it was sex talking on fb. She likes to tell me how she wants it and what I can do for her. I don't know if she does it to get herself off, to attract me or to make me jealous (thinking the sexual desire will bring us closer). Come to think of it, a big part of my exhaustion was spending much of my time wondering what she was thinking and why she did the things she did. I thought that if I could accurately figure this out, I'd continue to remain on her good side.

Her good side was paradise... .   :'(

[Narellan]

Ah yes I understand. It's difficult to go from fun flirty sexting on FB to just friends.

Do you feel guilty that you engaged with her again? Maybe you're confused again about what you want? These things are going to be ongoing as you continue with your friendship. This is what she wants and regardless of her motives, if you no longer want this you may have to consider NC. Sexting can be extremely addictive and she may have trouble not trying to engage you in this.

can you work out exactly how it made you feel and decide what boundaries you need to put in place? I sense you are confused about what you want, and while she's made herself clear, she obviously still wants to engage you in the sexting. But not a relationship. It's superficial needs based only. Don't let yourself think it's anything more.

I personally don't think I would contact her family. She will feel betrayed by that and come at you guns blazing. She sounds like she's coping. Leave her to find her own support system, it's really not your problem.

[fubsalot]

It's superficial needs based only. Don't let yourself think it's anything more.

Yes, yourself and this forum has been the shining light in helping me see that!

Do you feel guilty that you engaged with her again? Maybe you're confused again about what you want? These things are going to be ongoing as you continue with your friendship. This is what she wants and regardless of her motives, if you no longer want this you may have to consider NC.

I don't feel guilty about engagement. I have so much sympathy for her broken life and the complexity of her disorder that I can never blame her for her actions. But now that the picture has become crystal clear, I need to make more decisions about me and expect her to be able to find the next guy/support mechanism.

It hurts me because no one wants to see a friend (yes, we were great friends before things got more serious :'( ) live their life going from guy to guy and having no structure. I'm just really grateful that her family is very supportive and with her family's affluence, she is getting superb treatment and amazing results in therapy. Her progress gives me hope that someday she might be a BPD success story and achieve her main life goal of being a great mum.

She sounds like she's coping. Leave her to find her own support system, it's really not your problem.

I really hope that you're right about that. My greatest comfort is knowing that she has that brilliant support network at home, active counselling and access to the psych hospital when days get too dark.

[Narellan]

You're doing an amazing job. Researching and seeing things clearer.

I can see why she wants to keep leaning on you. You are a very good friend.

Take care of yourself x

[AimingforMastery]

It's superficial needs based only. Don't let yourself think it's anything more.

Yes, yourself and this forum has been the shining light in helping me see that!

Do you feel guilty that you engaged with her again? Maybe you're confused again about what you want? These things are going to be ongoing as you continue with your friendship. This is what she wants and regardless of her motives, if you no longer want this you may have to consider NC.

I don't feel guilty about engagement. I have so much sympathy for her broken life and the complexity of her disorder that I can never blame her for her actions. But now that the picture has become crystal clear, I need to make more decisions about me and expect her to be able to find the next guy/support mechanism.

It hurts me because no one wants to see a friend (yes, we were great friends before things got more serious :'( ) live their life going from guy to guy and having no structure. I'm just really grateful that her family is very supportive and with her family's affluence, she is getting superb treatment and amazing results in therapy. Her progress gives me hope that someday she might be a BPD success story and achieve her main life goal of being a great mum.

She sounds like she's coping. Leave her to find her own support system, it's really not your problem.

I really hope that you're right about that. My greatest comfort is knowing that she has that brilliant support network at home, active counselling and access to the psych hospital when days get too dark.

You write from a wise place. My only thought is this, and it runs contrary to much that has been said, and that as she is getting, as you say, "great treatment and superb results in therapy" then I just can't help wondering if you might want more and if t might actually be available with this person?

One reason I ask this is because you have the level of detachment that most of us don't in not taking the actions personally of a BPD.

Of course, I am not recommending a particular course of action, but... . ?

[fubsalot]

You write from a wise place. My only thought is this, and it runs contrary to much that has been said, and that as she is getting, as you say, "great treatment and superb results in therapy" then I just can't help wondering if you might want more and if t might actually be available with this person?

One reason I ask this is because you have the level of detachment that most of us don't in not taking the actions personally of a BPD.

Of course, I am not recommending a particular course of action, but... . ?

A few weeks ago, she had a large step backwards and cut herself. She was extremely emotional and ashamed of her actions. She wasted no time telling me every reason why I shouldn't associate with her, let alone want to pursue her romantically. She confessed intimate details about cutting, a lust for violent and rough sex, alcohol abuse, no control over emotions, ED, worthlessness, drug abuse and more.

But then the light started to arrive at the end of the tunnel and we agreed that yes, through her hospitalisation and continued therapy, what she was describing was a stage in her life that is over. Sure, many of these issues remain, but the ED, drugs, sex and alcohol abuse is over and the cutting is very rare. Progress has been amazing for her.

It was because of this night that I felt that if I continued my patience, it's worth a chance. We both made a commitment to not leave each other (though I now see that she likely didn't mean it).

I do well to not take the bad days too badly, but the more I educate myself about BPD, the harder it is to justify why I should remain friends with her for the sake of my sympathy. Since the day she told me that she can't accept me as a bf, everything spiralled for me, but everything remained the same for her. I tried to set boundaries, she walks all over them and I am still enabling it! In fact, I've spent almost every waking minute in a negative headspace.

Lastly, I am in a constant battle between trying to reason with the fact that:

1. I truly believed the idolisation and admiration and let it seduce me like an addictive drug that I have been taking every day for the last four months.

2. Knowing that if I leave her, she may take it so badly that her inspiring path to gaining control of her BPD will just be sent back to the days of her sex, drugs and alcohol abuse.

My compromise is trying to be "friends" and have that opportunity to watch her grow from a distance.

I'm happy to report how things are going! My gut feeling is that Sunday will be special for us and we'll connect (and/or I'll melt down and cry as I watch BPD absorb her). The one thing I know is that it's time to recharge my battery and if she can't accept my boundaries (I am certain she won't), I'll need to push for no voluntary contact. Not what I want, but time will tell!