Tightening up the formation

[ForeverDad]

But all of that is moot without a diagnosis.  And if there are no kids involved - there aren't are there? - I don't think the court will order psych evals.

Bottom line, you have to decide if you want to be with her as she is or not.  Quit thinking about fixing her - that's not in your control.

Unfortunately there are lots of kids involved.  18 down to 1.  8 total.  Yep... . I said that correctly 8 total.  So... . another way of thinking is that there are 8 people that I love that I don't want to be the 4th generation affected by BPD or BPD like behavior.

Courts generally deal with people as they are.  Yes, they'll order a short series of Anger Management classes, maybe, but that's as far as it goes.  So the odds are very high that they will not try to change her or support your efforts to change her.

What they are geared for is to unwind the marriage... .

• short term financial support (spousal support)



• long term financial support (alimony, depending on your state's laws)



• marital assets



• marital debts



• custody and decision making



• parenting time

The first 4 items are fairly straightforward, there will be some give and take but courts can handle that relatively well.  But the last 2 items - custody and parenting time - those will be the the most important and the most difficult ones to accomplish in your favor.

While yes, if you can rescue the marriage then custody and parenting time will resolve themselves, the fact is that thus far that doesn't look like it's going to happen.  Maybe it will happen later, but right now no one knows what the end result will be.  Though you can keep your eyes open for such opportunities, don't you think it would be wise to give higher priority to your parenting and securing as much possible in the meantime.  Perhaps even phrasing it as wanting to be as involved with parenting as possible and along those lines you still think a repaired marriage has hopes.  By doing that you at least include the children in the focus of your efforts, especially since at some point it may turn into being only about the children.  In other words, don't put all your eggs in one (rescue-the-marriage) basket.

[Matt]

I'm sorry, I got confused about the kids... .

So with young kids involved, if the marriage can't be saved, the big issue will be custody.  It will be very important to understand how the process works, and all your options.

Two decisions I made - both of them suggested by my friends here - helped a lot.

The first was to file a motion asking for a Custody Evaluator to be appointed.  That took the custody issue to a much higher level.  The CE was able to administer objective psych evals - the MMPI-2 - and talk to both parents, the kids, my stepkids (adults), and others who knew us, including my counselor.  He was able to look at the whole picture and take things into account that the court would never have looked at, and make recommendations - not just who should get primary custody, but more specific things to make the situation work out.

Looking back, his report had a lot of good stuff in it, including some stuff about the future;  he said, "Here's how I think would be best for now, and in the future here are some changes that will probably work better as the kids get older.", and his ideas have turned out to be right.

The most important thing about the CE was that he asked us to take the MMPI-2, which got my wife's disorders out in the open - not as accusations or opinions from me, but as a medical diagnosis from an objective, qualified professional.

The other process that helped a lot was depositions.  I filed a motion to have my wife deposed - questioned under oath by my attorney - and her attorney then did the same.  Each of us was under oath for four hours.  We could be asked anything relevant to the case.  Our answers were recorded and transcribed.

If we made false statements, the other side could find evidence of that and show it at trial - a big risk - so my lawyer told me to be very careful not to say anything which wasn't true.  But my wife made more than 40 false statements and accusations under oath, so if we had gone to trial (that is, if there was no settlement) she would have been put under oath and confronted with proof that she had lied under oath when she was deposed.  She would have lost all credibility with the court, and could have been criminally charged.

This put her in a very weak position.  I wanted to settle, but she had to settle;  her lawyer was ethically obligated to avoid criminal risk for her client.  They went from obstinate to very flexible, and we got a settlement that has worked pretty well.

[formflier]

No worries about confusion.  We'll just keep passing info and asking questions.

There is enough "stuff" I have that if my wife is deposed and tells the truth... . that's good for me.  If my wife is deposed and lies about it because she doesn't want to admit to this... . then... . that should work in my favor as well.

I see this being several steps down the road... . and that is a road I hope I don't get on.

But if it happens I am ready to do this.

So... . for all that are out there trying to help me shape my decision making... . please keep pressing... . don't let up.

I think of things as good, better and best.

Best:  Wife "get's it"  gets help and family is healed.   Lower chance of this happening.

Better:  We separate and get a decent agreement that forces us into evaluation and monitoring.  I believe this will shine the light on issues and something will happen.  She will get better... . or get much worse.  I really doubt she stays status quo.

Good:  DSS remains involved for a while and the situation slowly changes and this become more apparent to them. 

I could flip better and good... . but it depends on the timeline.

Thoughts?

I'm sorry, I got confused about the kids... .

So with young kids involved, if the marriage can't be saved, the big issue will be custody.  It will be very important to understand how the process works, and all your options.

Two decisions I made - both of them suggested by my friends here - helped a lot.

The first was to file a motion asking for a Custody Evaluator to be appointed.  That took the custody issue to a much higher level.  The CE was able to administer objective psych evals - the MMPI-2 - and talk to both parents, the kids, my stepkids (adults), and others who knew us, including my counselor.  He was able to look at the whole picture and take things into account that the court would never have looked at, and make recommendations - not just who should get primary custody, but more specific things to make the situation work out.

Looking back, his report had a lot of good stuff in it, including some stuff about the future;  he said, "Here's how I think would be best for now, and in the future here are some changes that will probably work better as the kids get older.", and his ideas have turned out to be right.

The most important thing about the CE was that he asked us to take the MMPI-2, which got my wife's disorders out in the open - not as accusations or opinions from me, but as a medical diagnosis from an objective, qualified professional.

The other process that helped a lot was depositions.  I filed a motion to have my wife deposed - questioned under oath by my attorney - and her attorney then did the same.  Each of us was under oath for four hours.  We could be asked anything relevant to the case.  Our answers were recorded and transcribed.

If we made false statements, the other side could find evidence of that and show it at trial - a big risk - so my lawyer told me to be very careful not to say anything which wasn't true.  But my wife made more than 40 false statements and accusations under oath, so if we had gone to trial (that is, if there was no settlement) she would have been put under oath and confronted with proof that she had lied under oath when she was deposed.  She would have lost all credibility with the court, and could have been criminally charged.

This put her in a very weak position.  I wanted to settle, but she had to settle;  her lawyer was ethically obligated to avoid criminal risk for her client.  They went from obstinate to very flexible, and we got a settlement that has worked pretty well.

[livednlearned]

It seems like there are two parts here to the court process.

One is DSS.

The other is divorce.

You're just dealing with DSS right now, and they have some kind of safety response and investigation that might involve monitoring how the two of you as parents behave. It's hard to imagine that DSS is stricter about counseling than court is, but I guess it's possible. Like Matt, FD, and others have mentioned, the counseling thing is a bit of hand waving when it comes to court. A judge can order it, but there aren't really serious consequences to not going. You can file what's called a motion for contempt, but they're kind of like parking tickets in family court. After a bunch have been filed, it shows a pattern but individually, they don't really compel much unless the kids are being negatively impacted.

Like Matt's wife, my ex was ordered to undergo counseling, both for alcohol and anger. Instead, he seems to have decided screw you all. Visitation was reinstated so he could see our son, but he hasn't reached out to make arrangements. He would rather walk away than get counseling, that's how frightening the sunlight can be.

A couple of questions for your attorney about the DSS process -- you might want to find out at what point does DSS report a case to the district attorney, or whatever court they report to. If your kids are found to be "not safe" or "unconditionally safe," find out what the difference is in terms of the reporting process.

Another question for your lawyer: will the court care (if you end up separating) if your wife does not comply with the DSS safety response and counseling terms.

Your case is a little different because of your public position, so maybe you'll have a different kind of process. But in general, court moves at a glacial pace. If your wife rejects counseling during the DSS phase, that might not count for much. But if court orders it, and she refuses, then there's a documented pattern.

There is no real "justice" with the court system. It's a marathon, not a sprint. And just when you reach mile marker 26.2, you realize you're actually in an ultramarathon.

[Grey Kitty]

Q: Have you had any contact with your wife since the DSS encounter when you were ordered to leave? If so, has she behaved considerably better than she was the prior week?

If the answer to that is not a resounding YES, then your "Best" scenario where you your wife gets it won't help you. Instead it will distract you from taking actions that can improve the situation. (If she does suddenly shift in that direction, you can stand down all sorts of plans or steps you might be taking already.)

All three scenarios sound long on wishful thinking, and short on actions that you have the power to take.

--If you separate, a "decent agreement" will require your lawyer fighting tooth and nail for you to get it--She is not being reasonable... . and the stress of attacking/invalidating her with this crap will only make her worse!

--You have very little influence over DSS; so far they haven't helped the situation, and they may not do much to help the situation. They also are likely to be (initially) manipulated by your wife.

[livednlearned]

Liveandlearned,

If you don't mind... . can you tell more of your story about what happened in court... . and how that played out.  

Has your ex hubby come to terms with it... . or is he still in denial?

He is in profound denial.

Do you think that you could have/should have tried to do something to bring this out earlier... . ?

By trying to do something to bring this out, do you mean trying to shine light on his disordered behavior? I didn't know about BPD during our marriage. I did know that something was seriously wrong, more than straightforward alcoholism. Like you, things came to a head rather abruptly and I left with S12. There was no going back for me. The gasoline was poured and the flame was lit.

Are you glad it finally came out?  Glad might be wrong word... but best I could think of... . did it have an ultimate good result.

It did not have a good result for him. Throwing light on his behavior had a deeply painful but ultimately good result for me and my son.

I hope this doesn't happen in my case... but if it does... it does.

There are a lot of similarities in our collective cases, and some important differences. BPD in men seems to influence custody issues in a different way. Mine wanted legal control of S12, and fought less hard to have hands-on-hand parenting (ie. visitation, physical custody). I think the degrees of narcissism also influences our cases. Of the hermit/queen/waif/witch behaviors, if your wife has strong queen traits, she might experience some of the same narcissistic issues my ex experienced.

Many (most?) people with PDs suffer from impulsivity, which hurts them in court. Entitlement is usually present, but arguably less damaging. Projection and denial also create problems, and that leads to obstructions and non-compliance (ie. the order doesn't say that, the judge didn't say that, etc.) that the court will tolerate up to a point. The worse expression of this are false accusations, which keeps everyone very busy being whipped up in a sideshow with disastrous results.

This is how a lot of us learn how family law works. We spend a lot of time in court trying dealing with non-compliance and continuances and false allegations.

My ex was a former trial lawyer, which led him to believe he could represent himself better than anyone else. That backfired badly for him because his disordered thinking was on full display with no one filtering it for him. He has all but given both middle fingers to the judge, not only by not complying with judge's orders, but by telling the judge that he is wrong. It's not a strategy that has worked well for him.

[Matt]

DSS is different from place to place.  In many places, they have a reputation for being militantly anti-dad and knee-jerk pro-mom.  Sometimes they may have an extreme political agenda;  they may not be open to reason or evidence.

You'll need to start by trying to work with them;  assume they are there to help the kids, and that's what you want too, and information is on your side, so you share information like the audio recording (after consulting about that with your attorney) and see how they respond.

I would suggest talking to your attorney as soon as possible - today if you can - and ask to talk to DSS right after that.  If they are reluctant to talk to you, or to look at your evidence, that will tell you a lot.

If you know people who have seen you with the kids, that might help.  Maybe you can ask DSS to talk with their teachers, neighbors, etc. - people with no stake in the matter except best wishes for the kids - and if they all say the kids respond to you normally that may help.

If at some point you see that DSS is biased, you'll need to ready to deal with them differently, and probably to go on the offense - shift from passively following their process to putting them on the defensive by taking them to court in some way.  Could be messy but if it's needed it's needed.

Seems like you have several things you need to deal with right now:  :)SS, bosses, separation/divorce, your wife, and the kids.  Plus you need to look after yourself - exercise, regular sleep, healthy diet, minimal drinking, counseling.  You might have to pick the few most important - #1 should be looking after yourself! - and see if you can set some of them aside for a period of time, without putting yourself at a disadvantage.  Trying to do too much at once can be a big mistake.

[Matt]

LnL is using terms - queen, waif, etc. - that are described in detail in "Understanding The Borderline Mother" by Christine Lawson.

It's kind of expensive, very thorough, very helpful, very depressing.

I think you should try to read it when you can.  It will shed a lot of light on your wife's behavior and how it's likely to impact the kids long-term.

[formflier]

Yep... . it's on my list to purchase... .

LnL is using terms - queen, waif, etc. - that are described in detail in "Understanding The Borderline Mother" by Christine Lawson.

It's kind of expensive, very thorough, very helpful, very depressing.

I think you should try to read it when you can.  It will shed a lot of light on your wife's behavior and how it's likely to impact the kids long-term.