Rage - part 2

[peaceplease]

Last Sat. I noticed there was weed stems on a notebook in my room.  I thought that I smelled weed the one day outside.  I did not say anything to my dh.  I sent my dd a text telling her what I found.  She apologized.  Then I told her not to harass me for car.  She did, and I reminded her what I found in my room.  She had to have used my car to get the weed.  Of course, she denied it. 

I let her take my car, for another welfare appt.  My dh did not believe that it took that long.  He did not say anything to her, but gave her glaring looks.  Of course, she yells what is his problem?  I chose not to get into anything.  I told her that she should be thankful that I even let her take the car, and my dh did not trust that she was doing what she said.  Over the weekend, I would not let her take my car.  She cried that she wanted to do something with my gs.  Then a few days later, i let her take it for another appt.  I smelled a strong stench of pot in car.  She insists that it must have been a half smoked cig.  I was highly suspicious, but dropped it, as I had no proof.  She wreaked of weed, too.  Also, her eyes were bloodshot.  I had an inservice training at work.  My dh smelled weed, too.  He found a coffee can, that she must have stored it in. He believed that was the source.  Previously, we searched all over.  We could smell it.  She was hiding it in the basement.  Of course, my dh did not find the actual weed.  He mentioned it to her the next day, and told her not to have it in the car.  The next day, she wants my car.  I tell her no, and that I would drive her.  She threw a fit.  Yelling that she was not a child, and was 30.  Anyways, she decided that she needed someone to help her with directions.  She was going to apply at a place that was a bit of a distance, and was unsure of directions.  So, I went with her.  She was out of her mean mode. 

Also, I must throw in, that she says that my dh drives the car.  This is where it is complicated, as my dh gave her weed one time, when she was asking for money.  Yes, that is another story!  He is not smoking anymore.  I was livid when I found out. This was a few months ago.  His reason was that he no longer smoked, and he did not want her buying any.   Stupid! Stupid!  Her argument for car was that my dh smokes, and I let him drive my car.  I do not believe he smokes anymore.  And, not to make light of it, but I have never seen him stoned.  Then, she told me that she had something to tell me, and that my dh gives her weed.  My dh told me about the time he gave it to her. So, she was not telling any big secret.  Then she threatened to tell my mother.  She is 89 and has dementia.  I asked what purpose would that be? 

Believe it or not, this is a condensed version.  Today, she carried on that I would not let her take my car to take my gs to breakfast.  I took my gs out, last night.  She said that she wanted to do something alone with him.  I told her that I needed to take care of my mother.  She was down there yelling.  My mother was about in tears.  I was upstairs getting her dressed.  My dh let her take the car.  I was not happy about that.  Anyways, she comes back and there is that smell, again.  She had job interview today, and my dh said that surely she would not to be stupid to smoke.  It was obvious that she was stoned.  Her eyes were bloodshot, and she smelled.  I was trying to think how to find out without interrogating my gs.  I mentioned that she stinks.  I asked if mommy was smoking them stinky cigars.  He said that she was at home.  My dd said they did not make breakfast, as they quit serving it due to time.  And, shorts she was to exchange for my gs because he has no clothes that "she" bought him.  She did not get to do that because she could not find receipt.  So, her big rage about my gs was just to have excuse to get car.  She actually smoked around my gs.

I am just sick about it.  I am sick that she used him to get car, so she could get high at home.  I do not want to tell her that my gs told me. 

She will yell and upset my mother.  My mom feels sorry for her.  I don't know what to do.  My dh said to get a restraining order to keep her away.  She will get her car in about a week.  I will be driving her to work, in the meantime. 

I think I am more upset that she used my gs for excuse to get my car, and that she got high in front of him.  I can not tell his dad, as he will flip on her in front of gs.  He would probably even hit her in front of him. 

Our objective is to better understand the struggles our child faces and to learn the skills to improve our relationship and provide a supportive environment and also improve on our own emotional responses, attitudes and effectiveness as a family leaders

[Thursday]

Hi peaceplease,

I've read both threads of yours and it is clear that you are feeling very much in between a rock and a hard place.

Seems to me you might need to hit a reset button... . so many things you are dealing with have spun out of control at this point.

I'm so sorry that your DD continues to use your GS as a pawn to get what she wants. Is there a way for you to proceed (to reset) that this corruption will not get her what she wants and then to stick to your ideals.

Is there a way to convince your husband that you both need to find a way to stick together, together figure out boundaries for the sake of the peace you seek?

It also seems that often your Mom is whirling around in this tornado... . is there a way to solidly keep her out of this so that her last years can be peaceful?

I'm not sure if your DD is an addict but she exhibits addict behavior. Seems like she will stop at nothing to get what she wants. She is very ill and this sort of ongoing conflict at age 30 is very disturbing to hear about. I wish I had more or better advice for you.

Finding a path, sticking to it, not wavering even when it is so hard, is something that might help you, your Mom, your DH, your GS and ultimately your DD too. Can you find a way to take a step back from DD's raging and upset to clear your head long enough to restate your values and boundaries so that all of you involved can find some lasting solace?

Lbjnltx gave some solid thoughts on the other thread. l also wanted to say that I never mind reading even a very long post... . sometimes it takes a lot of words to express what is happening. Even if I don't always reply or add my two cents I pretty much read every post or at least sort of scan to see if I have anything of value to add. You are a cherished member of this board and I just want you to know that we care enough to listen... . no matter how long. (and BTW, neither of your posts is all that long... . I know about long posts! LOL)

thursday

[HealingSpirit]

Dear Peaceplease,

I also read both parts of your post. I wouldn't want to trade places with you. Your situation sounds soo taxing & frustrating! I feel so bad for you.

I'm still very new here, but a few things came to mind about this.

1. Could your DD be self-medicating? I've read (and noticed) that most of the people I know who smoke pot, drink too much, or do other drugs are trying to self-medicate for an underlying condition. Perhaps addressing the CAUSE of her need to smoke pot, rather than the pot itself could help de-escalate the situation. Maybe it can help you see with empathy WHY she does this? And maybe encouraging her to take appropriate, legal meds for whatever underlying condition would help reduce her need to use illegal drugs?

2. You can't control whether or not she smokes anything.  But can you set a boundary with her to NOT do it in your car or home, and especially in front of your GS?  I don't know if she'll honor your request, but perhaps if you focus on the parts of this you CAN control, like your boundaries, it will help de-escalate. Boundaries are my struggle, and it is so much easier to see how to apply them in other's situations than my own.  Perhaps this is true for you too?

3. Not all drug users are addicts, but I think it is safe to say all addicts are attempting to self-medicate for some underlying pain or condition they cannot control.  I don't know where you live, but here in Calif, lots of very successful, healthy people smoke pot for recreation.  They compare the effects they feel to a glass of wine. I personally don't like it and I don't condone it or think everyone should condone it, but if you can take your own energy & focus away from your DD's use and help her focus on respecting your boundaries and on her own and everyone's safety, maybe the situation will calm down.

In the meantime, hang in there! You are truly a full-fledged member of the "sandwich generation" caring for your DD, GS, AND your mother all at the same time.  That is too much stress for anyone, even without adding BPD to the mix.  I think you're doing a remarkable job and I appreciate your contribution to this board more than you will ever know.

((BIG HUG))

[peace in steel town]

Do as I say and not as my husband does, or did, will be a hard lesson to teach. I don't understand why a 30 year old is using your car, or why you are driving her around, even if she has to wait a week to get her own. You say she is smoking weed, in the car, at home, in front of gs, whatever. Isn't that a crime where you live? If she is breaking the law, why is there not zero tolerance? Regardless of her tantrums. As create4joy says, you can't control whether or not she smokes weed, but you can control whether or not she is allowed in your home, the use of your car, and access to family if she does.

[peaceplease]

Thursday -  Yes.  My dd is definitely an addict.  So, is my dh, and that complicates matters.  He is more dependent on prescription pain med than an addict at this point.  Also, he smoked pot occasionally before.  And, he has even smoked with my kids in the past.  Silly guy did not realize that my kids were more than happy to use that against him someday.  They know my feelings on pot.  I guess my dh felt it was a way to bond with them.  I don't know. 

I wish my mother could be taken out of this.  The poor woman needs her peace. I am thinking the only way to take her out of this is to not permit my daughter to come here.  I have talked to my sister about this, and she has told me to call the police when my daughter rages. And, that will freak my mother out.  So, I don't know about that, either.   

I was thinking maybe getting my sister involved, since her mother is being affected by this, too.  My daughter idolizes my sister, but that could change, too.

create4joy - My daughter does self medicate.  Yes, there are legal meds, that she can take.  She has all kind of prescription bottles to pretend she is taking them.  She tells her counselor at methadone clinic that Effexor does not work for her.  And, counselor supposedly tells her that she needs to get something else...   Perhaps, a low dose benzo.  I know that she is not taking her Effexor.  She may be lying about the talk with counselor, thinking I will agree with her.   Also, she takes Adderall and it escalates her. 

She has not actually smoked the weed in my car.  It was just the smell from being in it.  She denies that it was in the car.  And, my dh smoking before, does not help my argument.  It makes him look like a hypocrite reprimanding her for it.  I can not control her smoking in front of my gs.  She does it in her home.  And, she will deny it. 

And, she is definitely an addict.  She is an opiate addict and in methadone treatment. Also, was addicted to benzos in the past.  And, now she is a heavy pot smoker.  I know she is self medicating.  I can only lead her to the water.  She has to drink it. 

Thanks for your reply.

peace in steel town - My dd is not smoking the weed in the car.  I guess I made it sound that way.  However, I smelled the actual weed.(not smoked) It has a strong smell.  She denies having it in my car.  I can not prove it.  She claims that it was not in my car, and told me that she got it while she was with her friend.  I can not PROVE it was in my car.  I pretty much know it was in my car by the smell.  And, I saw stems in my room.  She will deny smoking in front of my gs.  It would have to be something that I actually caught her doing. 

It is complicated as my husband smoked weed.  That was her argument as she said that my dh drove my car, and he smoked weed.  He told me that he quit.  I believe him.  But, you are right it is so hard to teach when he smoked before. 

Thanks for reply.


peaceplease

[HealingSpirit]

Dear Peaceplease,

I'm sorry I missed the part about your DH also smoking weed AND with your kids.  THAT definitely complicates things, as you said.  How FRUSTRATING!

And I know how any smoke smell (pot or cigs) lingers on the clothing and gets on stuff like cars and furniture, even when the smoker hasn't smoked in the area.  My housekeepers smoke and I could smell their cigs on my freshly changed sheets once.  They must have put them on immediately after they took a smoking break.  Yuck! 

So, I get what you're saying now.  You know she's doing it because you can't hide that smell.  It speaks for itself.

My previous post must have seemed like an insult to your intelligence because I obviously don't have enough of the ONE of those issues (caring for aging parent, caring for mentally ill adult child, caring for grandchild, being married to an addict) is enough for people to need extra support.  I wish I knew what to say to help. 

Who takes care of YOU?  Is there some way to take time out so YOU get the rest and recharge you need to continue coping with all this?  The first thing they tell you when being the caregiver for an aging parent is to arrange for time to take care of yourself.  With so many people counting on you, you've gotta take time out (somehow) to rest and relax peacefully.  Wishing you just that... . peace.

[Thursday]

peaceplease,

Wondering how you are holding up through all of this.

I find it is easier to formulate a plan on paper and then review it with practical application in my mind. I start with "the perfect plan" and scale it down and then I make myself BEGIN with baby steps, one little piece at a time until the list or plan is accomplished.

Your descriptions of the current situation sound like your DD is just doing whatever she wants... . using your room to mess with her pot? What is up with that? So... . flagrant! My SD has done such things... . when in high school she used to smoke a bowl of pot on her way out the door (going to school) in our garage. The smell would linger... . I would go out in the garage to put garbage out (we kept the cans in the garage) and know exactly what she had been doing. Yet, she denied it. Maybe someone was on the street smoking pot and the smell came into the garage. 

It is a terrible thing when you are made to wonder, am I crazy here? Mistaken? Imagining things?

Your husband's history does make things harder but what are you going to do... . it is what it is and his bad behavior doesn't need to be the excuse for anyone else's bad behavior.

I think your sister's idea to keep your DD away from you Mom is a good one and you say you wish your Mom could be kept out of all of this... . she can!. If you got a restraining order and called the police the next time she shows up, do you think this would be the "one time" she would allow herself to get arrested (or whatever the police would do in this case) and do you think it would be preferable for your Mom to witness DD getting arrested once rather than to have this ongoing turmoil? I admit I really don't know how a restraining order works and can't recall if your DD has any sort of arrest record... . so use my idea only if this is applicable in your situation.

Peace- it does sound like you are feeling lost and searching for strength. All I can say is from my end things only really began to get better when we stopped allowing SD to do whatever she wanted, when we said... . this is the boundary line and we won't allow you to keep walking all over us. We also let her know that we simply had no faith in the things she insisted were true. It was never absolute and perfect... . my husband really has a hard time not enabling and rescuing... . he is still very conflicted. I stay on this crazy teeter-totter where on one side I am ever mindful of his tendencies. The other side is my empathy for SD and an understanding of her issues as being mental illness . The empathy has only come about because I see her trying to do things better. I know I wouldn't have half as much empathy for her if she was acting as ugly as she used to. Our boundaries have really given my SD a place to begin again, a clean slate to start from.

Addicts are liars. I wouldn't expect anything more from your DD until she makes a decision to get clean and sober. She will likely blame and excuse whenever she feels uncomfortable or caught or needing to change circumstances to fit with what she wants.

I don't want to be harsh with you pp, but you might feel a lot better and things might really improve if you can find some sort of a path and stick to it - add some time to see if it works. Too many people are at risk from your DD's behaviors. Has she ever been in any kind of treatment? rtc or iop? An IOP would let her stay with her son and work and they are usually very attached to a 12 step, have all of the resources and can monitor things also... . that was our experience. Such a big mess... . wish I had more or better advice for you.

Are your assisting her in some way (money, support for gs maybe?) that you can trade for her participation in a program of some sort? For us it came down to go to your iop and participate in 12 step plus live in a sober house (expensive but worth it- we paid for this for a year)  or move out of our home and we won't pay for anything. It was a real "come to Jesus" moment. If she believed we were serious or not didn't matter because we WERE and we stuck to what we promised would happen afterwards. One little step at a time.

Maybe you can find something in my ramblings that can help you. That your DD is 30 YO and still so enmeshed in her BS is just too much and too long!

Thursday

[peaceplease]

Thursday,

I appreciate your words of wisdom.  Don't ever worry about being harsh.  I realize what you are saying is right.  I am considering a restraining order from the house.  I am going to devise a plan, and include my sister with it. 

She has been in rehabs.  She is in methadone treatment, and I think she will be a lifer, there.  What gets me is the only consequence they have for positive drug screens is the lack of take home privileges.  I don't see any encouragement to stop the other drugs.  I think they should have IOP there, for clients who are continuously positive for other drugs.  Methadone can help people live legal, productive lives, but the treatment centers offer no help in getting clients clean from other drugs.  They should offer outpatient treatment for those who are testing positive for the other drugs.  My dd is definitely addicted to pot. 

We both have the same pcp, and I will be telling her about her addiction.  She is not abusing her Adderall, but I suspect that it escalates her.  I will suggest that she make it a condition that my dd see a psychiatrist and therapist.  I will be telling her on my next appt. with her coming up this month.  I told her on my last appt. that she was smoking pot.  I think when I tell her the severity of the problem, she will take what I say into consideration. 

I believe that my daughter's behavior reminds me of my ex-husband's these days.  She is escalating out of control.  We were getting along okay, before.   I realize that I can not let this go on, anymore.  She seems to be at her worst, these days.

Today, is her birthday.  My mother wanted to take her out to eat, tonight.  I suggested that maybe we could get her favorite pizza, since the weather was questionable.  My dd turned up her nose, saying it was pricey.  Ha!  She said that she would like to go out to eat, with just me and her.  That is when I told her that her grandma wanted to take her out.  She said, that would be nice.  We were going to go out to eat.  She had a date planned for later evening.  My gs was to spend the evening with me.  I found it ironic that she always told me that she would never put a man before her son.  She did exactly that, today.

She called and said her date was off  work earlier than she expected.  Told me to go ahead and get pizza.  I told her that I was getting pizza, if we did not go out to eat.  And, only if she was joining us.  I would make something for us to eat, now that she was not coming over.  She said, okay.  My gs was quite upset that his mother changed her plans, and was not coming over as promised.  I had an ice cream cake for her.  So, my gs said that his mother was not spending any of her birthday with him.  He was very disappointed.  I took him out for fast food, after I made something for my mother. 

She called prior to my taking him out, and asked if she could get some money.  What?  I thought you had a date?  Isn't he buying you dinner?  I need money for cigs.  I had $10 in a card.  Also, had a check for $10 in a card from my mom.  She has many grandkids, and gives the older ones $10, and more for the great grandkids.  I left the cards on the table for her to pick up.  She messaged me, and asked why I gave her a check.  I told her that grandma had no cash, and I gave her cash.  She said yeah it as $10.  This was in addition to clothes that I bought her, the other day. 

I guess her date was not really a date.  He showed up with some friends.  It was probably just to stop in and get high with her.  Nice guy?  She told me that she did not want to talk about it, as she was angry enough.  So, she blew off time to be with her son, for this lovely man.  She said this guy ruined her day.  Nice of him to take that honor away from me.  Anyways, I think her 30th will be quite memorable.  I guess it is better than the one she spent in jail, five years ago.

I realize that I have been overwhelmed, and need to get some tune up counseling sessions.  So, I am going to arrange for that. Hopefully, I can arrange for my husband to go to a few sessions to learn how not to talk to my daughter.  He can be the sweetest guy, and does a lot for my family.  But, the man can have a lot of stupid come out of his mouth when he is angry with my daughter. 

Okay, this reply was a mini novel. 

[qcarolr]

Peaceplease

I can hear my own voice speaking your words as I read this thread. My DD just turned 28. I still have great desire for her to love me and allow me to love her. We are surrounded by all these old patterns so it feels like nothing every really changes. It has taken great effort to confront my own denial of the truth that DD has some measure of control over her choices, even with the impact of mental illness and other cognitive disabilities. I have to step out of her way as much as I can tolerate - she is a grown up and has to be allowed to mess up her own life.

I can see many ways that your relationship with your D may be similar to when she was in high school. Do you have a deep, silent belief that she cannot manage her life on her own -even as she does not manage her life how you think she needs to?

What are you afraid will happen if you change your patterns with her. Such as:

-Stop letting her use your car - including allowing your dh to have keys to your car to loan to her. She has violated your trust in whatever way creates the smell of pot in your car. Your dh violates your trust by letting her drive YOUR car.

-Stop arranging celebrations or events for her with her son or other family.

-Stop changing your plans when she changes her plans. Assume she will not be there.

-Stop shielding your gs from his mom not being there for him. He knows what is real about this and has a right to his feelings of betrayal by her. Use your validation skills with him as much as possible.

-Stop giving her money. Instead choose what to buy her that she needs.

Would she take contact with your gs away?  That was my DD's greatest threat before my dh and I got custody of our gd. Would gs's dad allow you contact with him during his week with his son?

It feels like so many parts of my life are in conflict - whatever word I can think of to describe this. Dialectic, paradox. Peaceplease, you seem so caught in between the opposing needs of each member of your family. Which members need to take over responsibility for their own needs? Who is unable to take care of their own needs, and maybe need you to intercede for their protection? How do you assess what consequences of taking a stand on this you are willing and able to accept within YOURSELF?

How can you find a quiet piece of time regularly to rest and think and plan? Can your sister be there for your mom a bit each week? How to give yourself some space away from the drama of day to day life - to gain a different perspective?

Can you check with the local DA office about what is needed to file a petition for a no-contact order with your D at your home? For the benefit of your mom? It is her house.  Would your dh as well as your sister support this?

These are hard questions. I have not come up with the answers, consistently, for myself at times. I have been in a resting, peace seeking place the past few weeks away from the board so have missed out on much of your current story. I so appreciate Thursday perspective - here on your story and on mine.

Praying for you to find some clarity... .

qcr

[peaceplease]

HealingSpirit,

I apologize, I addressed a reply to create4joy that was meant for you, in my multi-reply to those who responded.  I don't know what happened there.  Wow, my mind must really be going.  I must have read something with create4joy and the name was stuck in my mind.I apologize, that reply was directed towards you.  You must have realized my goofiness.  Okay, I need the embarrassed icon, again.

And, your reply was no insult to my intelligence.  Thanks for being so kind, and taking time to reply. 

[peaceplease]

qcr,

I realize that I have let situation get out of control.  And, I let myself get soo overwhelmed, and not practicing all the valuable tools that I have learned.  My name is peaceplease, and that is where I started when I came to this site five years, ago.  I have moved forward, and fallen backwards.  I was a mess when I first came here.

My key priority is taking care of my mother, and her peace is disturbed by what I have allowed.  My mother feels sorry for my dd, too.  She is so loving towards my daughter, and my daughter shows no respect by raising her voice in her presence.  But, then my dh does that too, at times.  Not with me, but more so with my dd.  My dh will have our brief spats, and they are not frequent, like my daughter's rages.  My dh will yell at my daughter, then realize he is out of control and stop.  My dd does not use any control when she is angry. Trust me, it does not take much to anger her. 

I plan on talking to my nephew about a restraining order from the house.  He is  a local police officer.  Also, plan on talking to my sister, and ask her to be my backup in what I say to my daughter, regarding my mother.  My heart just really broke for my gs. 

I don't normally give my dd money. It was only because it was her birthday, and she had the audacity to complain about it only being $10, and that I gave her check from my mother.  She seemed to forget about the clothes that I bought her. I bought her quite a bit because she gained so much weight, her present wardrobe be is too tight.

My dd has threatened to keep my gs away.  She always uses him.  Little does she know that my gs told me his mom wants to keep him full time.  I asked how he felt about that.  He told me that he likes staying at his dad's, and at my house.  I told him that he would probably like to stay with his mom, if she had cable, and internet to watch his wrestling videos on youtube.  His response was that he wished that I had an xbox, as he would not want to stay with his mom at all, then.  He has an xbox there, and he does not get to play it, if my dd wants to watch something.  I would never tell my dd that, as I would not want to betray his trust.  My dd was complaining about my dh today, and she told me that her son felt the same way.  She told me that they talk.  I made the mistake and said that we talk, too. I know as soon as that came out of my mouth, I was kicking myself.  However, I did not elaborate on what we talk about. She told me that, yeah, you probably coax stuff out of him, and drag him into it.   I did not tell what he tells me.  He complains that she is mean, and yells all the time at everybody.  I realize that kids think their parents are mean when they yell.  She happens to yell a lot.  And, then she yells at him for being disrespectful to her.  He is only doing what he is taught. 

Okay, time to get off my soapbox, and get ready for bed.  I work early in the morning. 

peace

Our objective is to better understand the struggles our child faces and to learn the skills to improve our relationship and provide a supportive environment and also improve on our own emotional responses, attitudes and effectiveness as a family leaders

[qcarolr]

Peaceplease - it is so painful with our grandchildren. My take on my DD is that she is unaware of her impact on gd. She has struggled with gd's exclusion of her. DD has believed that she never harmed gd. That all her anger and raging was aimed at me or dh in our home. Or at the current bf. She just does not get the attachment and safety needs of a young child. Perhaps your dh has had this belief, though it sounds like he is gaining awareness and stopping. Doing over. Self-reflective.

DD mailed a letter to gd. Gd is not ready to read it yet. It is an affirmation of her love for her little girl. It is asking for love and to be a special friend. It says to be good to dh and I. It is showing me self-reflection by DD and an accepting of a bigger reality.

My belief is that DD's time in jail since Feb 22nd without access to drugs has made a huge difference in her ability to hear, to feel, to think and to be safer to do these things. This is four months. She has struggled through her two month "burnout" (her words) twice in jail. It took 2 months for her to get past her anger and denial that she did anything wrong. Then 2 months of true effort at the job hunt and work with a single event of drug use ending that for now. For the first time ever I can see she wants to live. She has admitted she started drugs in high school during a long period of suicidal thinking (that she mostly kept to herself, or blocked when we took her to ER). She said to me today that she felt worthless so what did it matter if she was slowly killing herself.

Thursday has stated this often: get clean/sober first, then changes can come, changes can stick. I hear this in Rapt Reader's story also. The loss of something valuable (cost of doing drugs) has to exceed the need (the benefit) of doing drugs.

If it came down to it, would you be willing to assert grandparent righst in court to keep contact with your gs? A consult with a family lawyer that has experience with non-parent custody situations might be helpful for you right now. Your gs desperately needs you in his life. His mother may not be a safe person for him in her current state.

qcr