Unrealistic Expectations

[Depression = 72% of members]

I'm new, but I have been reading the lessons for a few months now. Haven't grasped them all, or implimented all of the tools, but I'm beginning to understand my fiancé better. That is, if he does have BPD, which seems to be the best explaintion for what has gone on in our relationship.

I wanted to ask a question about something I understand the least so far. Lately, he has been expressing that none (always extremes) of his needs are being met. Moreover, he knows none of them ever will be. He swings back and forth between wondering if this means he should lower his expectations, or if he should give up on life.

Some of the needs he is referring to are completely valid. Some of them are unrealistic. Some would be better classified as dreams or goals he could arrive at with patience. Others are wants he has no control over. But he lumps them all together as proof that the universe hates him.

Is this common in BPD?

A couple months ago, while raging, he told me he was upset with me for not being willing to preform a certain șexual act. The act, when attempted the first and only time, resulted in a very negative physical response from me. So, even though it was something he had told me he would enjoy, I decided that it would not be something I was comfortable with.

During this rage, he accused me of being selfish and not wanting to please him because I would not do this particular thing. It was hurtful, because he didn't seem to care how awful what he wanted had made me feel. (He always does care normally though.)

He later apologised, and as it turned out, seemed to be quite afraid of me not being willing to make an effort to meet his needs, and that fear had just come out in a twisted way. He thinks I am not interested in making him happy, and don't care about him sometimes.

Anyway, something more concerning happened tonight. I have a history of anorexia, and he told me he found me more attractive when I was skinnier than I am now.  :'(

This (my fatness) is apparently related to my wanting to make him happy. And that worries me. I tried to be validating, but I was clear about the fact that I need to do what's right for my health, and he reassured me he didn't want me to stop eating. He just thought I should eat less. I can be a bit manipulative when my feelings are hurt sometimes (I am trying really hard to change that and am getting better) and I could've gone crazy at him this time. But I know that he's sensitive to my being hurt and blaming him, because I did that in the past and he felt terrible and was scared of me.

So I guess I'm wondering if this kind of personal criticism is common and what motivates it usually? I have one theory, which is that he's slightly misogynistic due to some things he's read online, and is paranoid women are all selfish and lazy and entitled? He doesn't want to be trapped with someone who wants to use him?

But I kind of feel worried that he doesn't love me if he finds me less attractive. I need to take care of myself and not relapse into anorexia again as well. This is difficult to navigate and if anyone has any insight I would be so thankful.

[hellosun]

I'm new, but I have been reading the lessons for a few months now. Haven't grasped them all, or implimented all of the tools, but I'm beginning to understand my fiancé better. That is, if he does have BPD, which seems to be the best explaintion for what has gone on in our relationship.

I wanted to ask a question about something I understand the least so far. Lately, he has been expressing that none (always extremes) of his needs are being met. Moreover, he knows none of them ever will be. He swings back and forth between wondering if this means he should lower his expectations, or if he should give up on life.

Some of the needs he is referring to are completely valid. Some of them are unrealistic. Some would be better classified as dreams or goals he could arrive at with patience. Others are wants he has no control over. But he lumps them all together as proof that the universe hates him.

Is this common in BPD?

A couple months ago, while raging, he told me he was upset with me for not being willing to preform a certain șexual act. The act, when attempted the first and only time, resulted in a very negative physical response from me. So, even though it was something he had told me he would enjoy, I decided that it would not be something I was comfortable with.

During this rage, he accused me of being selfish and not wanting to please him because I would not do this particular thing. It was hurtful, because he didn't seem to care how awful what he wanted had made me feel. (He always does care normally though.)

He later apologised, and as it turned out, seemed to be quite afraid of me not being willing to make an effort to meet his needs, and that fear had just come out in a twisted way. He thinks I am not interested in making him happy, and don't care about him sometimes.

Anyway, something more concerning happened tonight. I have a history of anorexia, and he told me he found me more attractive when I was skinnier than I am now.  :'(

This (my fatness) is apparently related to my wanting to make him happy. And that worries me. I tried to be validating, but I was clear about the fact that I need to do what's right for my health, and he reassured me he didn't want me to stop eating. He just thought I should eat less. I can be a bit manipulative when my feelings are hurt sometimes (I am trying really hard to change that and am getting better) and I could've gone crazy at him this time. But I know that he's sensitive to my being hurt and blaming him, because I did that in the past and he felt terrible and was scared of me.

So I guess I'm wondering if this kind of personal criticism is common and what motivates it usually? I have one theory, which is that he's slightly misogynistic due to some things he's read online, and is paranoid women are all selfish and lazy and entitled? He doesn't want to be trapped with someone who wants to use him?

But I kind of feel worried that he doesn't love me if he finds me less attractive. I need to take care of myself and not relapse into anorexia again as well. This is difficult to navigate and if anyone has any insight I would be so thankful.

[PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES]

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[maxsterling]

Well, the short answer to your question is yes, this is common with BPD.  I could give you dozens of similar examples from my relationship that have occurred in the past week, and probably 3-4 from yesterday alone!

The root of this is the black/white thinking.  There is no "in-between" in the BPD mind.  The saying, "every cloud has a silver lining" does not work for them, instead they live by "one bad apple spoils the bunch."  My GF started DBT group therapy last night, and when she got home I took a glance at the paperwork and homework they gave her.  Much of it was about seeing the world as neither all good or all bad, and avoiding absolute statements like "always" and "never".

It's a difficult thing for us nons to deal with, because it can come out of nowhere.  For example, our car may break down on the way to visit pwBPD.  pwBPD is mad because during our visit we were also supposed to bring something for pwBPD.  pwBPD then throws a fit, blames us for not taking better care of our car, says it means we really didn't want to visit him/her after all, and it means we don't car about him/her.  So, having your car break down means you are a horrible person who is not meeting any of your partner's needs.  BTW, that is an actual story from my life. 

My advice is to recognize his behavior for what it is, realize you cannot validate the absurd, that this is his problem he can't fix, and go about taking the best care of yourself. 

[hellosun]

Wow. So they tend to take things that personally. I hadn't thought my fiancé did the black and white thinking thing, but he so does! He'll have one day where he is happy and I think his perspective is fairly healthy, and then the next day he thinks every day is getting worse than the one prior. It's like he doesn't remember the good days following worse ones.

There is no reasoning with him when he is like that, so everything you said makes sense. Thank you for the advice and explination, maxsterling. It can be hard to see what's going on. I'm glad your girlfriend is in therepy, and I hope she does well in it.

[Turkish]

Wow. So they tend to take things that personally. I hadn't thought my fiancé did the black and white thinking thing, but he so does! He'll have one day where he is happy and I think his perspective is fairly healthy, and then the next day he thinks every day is getting worse than the one prior. It's like he doesn't remember the good days following worse ones.

There is no reasoning with him when he is like that, so everything you said makes sense. Thank you for the advice and explination, maxsterling. It can be hard to see what's going on. I'm glad your girlfriend is in therepy, and I hope she does well in it.

max has a good point about not validating the absurd. We have a saying here, "validate the valid, invalidate the invalid."

Feelings are always valid (they are real, after all), it's the actions that arise from these feelings that can be invalid. That's where the tools can be helpful. And in responding, it's best to look at our own responses to keep from JADEing (Justify, Argue, Defend, Explain).

pwBPD do see the world in black and white. I think these articles may be helpful to you in understanding how a pwBPD thinks. The first is a workshop lead by a member in recovery from BPD:

BPD Behaviors: How it feels to have BPD

I think listening to BPDs who have come out the other side and reflect on their experiences is very helpful in understanding the pwBPD in our lives.

My uBPDx used to talk about feeling "empty" and I just couldn't comprehend it, even if I knew logically what she was talking about. I wish I had understood and been more empathetic towards her, as we might still be together. You are on a good path  

[an0ught]

Hi hellosun,

But I kind of feel worried that he doesn't love me if he finds me less attractive. I need to take care of myself and not relapse into anorexia again as well. This is difficult to navigate and if anyone has any insight I would be so thankful.

he won't find you less attractive. He either thinks that you are super attractive or you are not attractive at all. And that may well depend on whether he is feeling well or is tired or is hungry or has eaten something or ... .

With your history this is super tough to deal with  . You can't control him having unreasonable ideas but you can only control yourself. Don't justify yourself to him (Justify Argue Defend Explain). It is your body and you take care of it your way. If this becomes an important issue for you it may be necessary to set some explicit boundaries and e.g. remove yourself when he won't stop judging your body.

[hellosun]

@Turkish - My fiancé told me about feeling empty also, and alone, even though I was in the same room. I don't know that even he understands it. That's what clued me in to thinking that there must be more to what was going on than a mood disorder (I used to have a mood disorder, and what he was experiencing seemed different from my experience).

I read the threads you linked, and have been trying to make sense of how it all fits together. Some of what Mahari wrote scared me, at first. If only the pwBPD can find their own healing, it is up to me to love and accept, not "fix." Sounds hard, as it's natural to want a magic pill to relieve our loved ones' suffering. But if a pwBPD has the ability to take charge of their own recovery, then how empowering for them to discover it!

I'm still having trouble believing this splitting actually happens to him to such a degree. Are there degrees? (seems silly to ask, it's called black and white, not grey) Can they hide it during a shift? My fiancé does tend to hide and lie about certain things (I think he hid his concern about my appearance for a few days at least, if not weeks, hinting about exercise and such--I can connect this in hindsight). It's painful to talk about this stuff, but I want to know what I'm dealing with. Maybe he is too scared of my reaction to be upfront?

He is not scared when telling me about people who have frustrated him, and I can see the devaluation happening there, I guess. They are completely horrible, and he wishes they were dead (that always disturbs me when he says that, even though he is not violent at all), etc. I used to think he was just being melodramatic. And yeah, he expresses his emotions creatively and dramatically through language, but there is intense, real emotion behind it.

Strangely enough, he rarely yells. He is quiet in social situations, and often is expressionless (only with me alone, or people he trusts, he makes lots of facial expressions)--due to anxiety, I had thought, but maybe also an effort to control emotion?

Those 20 Negative Beliefs were SPOT ON, though.

I have so much to learn. This is such a learning curve.

I so appreciate your response, Turkish. It is a relief to be able to talk to people about this without judgement.

[hellosun]

Hi hellosun,

But I kind of feel worried that he doesn't love me if he finds me less attractive. I need to take care of myself and not relapse into anorexia again as well. This is difficult to navigate and if anyone has any insight I would be so thankful.

he won't find you less attractive. He either thinks that you are super attractive or you are not attractive at all. And that may well depend on whether he is feeling well or is tired or is hungry or has eaten something or ... .

With your history this is super tough to deal with  . You can't control him having unreasonable ideas but you can only control yourself. Don't justify yourself to him (Justify Argue Defend Explain). It is your body and you take care of it your way. If this becomes an important issue for you it may be necessary to set some explicit boundaries and e.g. remove yourself when he won't stop judging your body.

I am still having trouble getting my head around this, how confusing! He never outright tells me he dislikes me, and tends to be passive aggressive with me when angry with me. But must be bewildering for him if he feels this way inside.

Two mornings after the weight incident, he was concerned that I wouldn't want to marry him anymore. "I hate you, don't leave me," indeed. Speaking of books on this, I should pick some up.

Thank you so much for the hugs, an0ught. I will read more about Jade, and keep eating properly!

[Turkish]

hellosun, a good book is Stop Caretaking The Borderline Or Narcissist. Chapter 1 gives an excellent description of the BP and NP. The rest of the book focuses on us, and how we contribute to the dynamic.

The weight thing... . this could be his projecting his lousy self image onto you. They see us as extensions of themselves, after all. My uBPDx was anemic when I met her, going vegetarian without doing it right (I call it a borderline eating disorder, no pun intended though it fits). She is petite, all of 112 lbs when I met her, and never more than 125 after each pregnancy, and she dropped her weight afterwards. I never criticized her about any physical aspect of hers.

In our last year, the one of Detachment, she became almost obsessed with working out. I gained some weight, but no more than about 12 lbs from when she met me. She even went so far as to say that my weight interfered with intimacy. I asked several women around work if they thought I.was overweight, and got a resounding, "No!"  I'm 6'2", muscular. 12 lbs is a little noticable, but hardly the end of the world.

Even when she was living with me for four months until she got out, cheating behind my back... . (kind of, I was aware of everything, her justification twisted), she was still obsessed with losing weight.

Months after she left, I found a journal she had been keeping, which ended about the time she met me. She was obsessed with her "perfect weight" and later entries her perfect weight of 100, a completely arbitrary number, of course, but I suppose it sounds good. No wonder she was anemic when I met her!

She was also always changing her hair. I think that had to do with the fact that since she couldn't change her inside, she changed her outside, and sought validation by posting selfies to FB each time she did it.

My point is that it isn't about us, it's about them the challenge is to recognize it and respond in a healthy, non-triggering manner. I finally came here after our r/s was over, but wish I had trusted my gut in Year 1 (of six), and followed my "diagnosis" of BPD. I could have learned the communication tools in the lessons, read the books and gotten support so my expectations would have been more realistic, instead of me getting triggered by my own FOO (Family Of Origin) issues.

You're in the right place, and I'm hopeful for a success story here, but I'm more hopeful that you are healthy and safe.

Turkish