New limits have been reached...

[How to communicate after a contentious divorce...]

It's hard to summarize this but I'll do my best to highlight the important parts. I've been in therapy for 2.5 years and he just started a couple months ago. Since he started, things have only gotten worse.

Monday- I got very upset because I am so stressed about the health of my marriage with dBPD H and also stress of new job position. He is supportive and loving to me while I express my feelings.

Tuesday- I mouthed off to a security guard at a concert who was being very hostile and unclear about what line I should be in/why. Nothing more happened, I just loudly told him he needed to learn how to speak to people and give clear directions.

Friday- We go to a large fundraiser with friends and it seemed that we ended up getting separated a lot. I would want to one thing and he would go off and do his own, which is fine. I just noticed that all of our couple friends seemed to be communicating with their partners about where they were and trying to meet back up. I didn't text him but he didn't text me either. When he asked me why I seemed stressed I told him I felt like he didn't want to be around me and he was actually very supportive and made me feel better. At the after party he got tired and wanted to drive home instead of staying over, as we had planned. I felt disappointed that we weren't going to have a crazy night together but understood he wanted to sleep at home. I could have stayed but I felt a bit awkward staying on my own so I said I'd go too. He asked me in the car what was going on because I was a bit quiet. I just explained that I felt sad that we didn't stay because I wanted to have a fun night out together. He heard "I am angry" and started off on a tangent and told me how I was crazy, etc. and I could have stayed. I kept trying to say calmly that he wasn't hearing what I was feeling. Eventually he parked the car and I tried to get out. He grabbed my arm and I continued to try and get out of the car because I didn't feel that this was a good time to talk. He tightened his grip and bruised my arm.

Saturday-He woke up and started in on me right away about how needy I am and how sick he is of me. I didn't respond so he started saying nasty things and threw a couple non-breakable household items around and slammed doors. He said he was showing me how I act. (I have freaked out in the past because we've been together 2.5 years so I am not always able to keep it all bottled up but have not done anything like this in over 7 months). I did not engage. He kept busy and went to therapy then his friend's house. He sent me a few text messages saying he wanted to talk later and I agreed. He came back and I had friend's over. We pretended like things were ok and even had sex before bed (I had a lot of wine to help me let things slide for the evening).

Sunday- We had breakfast and started to talk about what happened Friday night. He started off by telling me how my behavior over the past week was unacceptable and it's clear that I'm not working on my own relationship issues. He told me that no one would feel how I felt at the party, that I was crazy and that wasn't normal to expect a partner to communicate about where they are. I got up and walked out of the kitchen. He said if I didn't come back and talk, he was leaving. So I tried again. All I wanted was for him to validate my feelings and admit that they were reasonable. If he didn't like the way I expressed them, fine. But I should be allowed to have feelings. He then told me that his therapist said he didn't dysregulate on Saturday. He was just fed up with my behavior because I am not working hard enough on my insecurities. That my fear of abandonment and rejection needs to stop. He is trying his hardest in therapy and he tried to talk to me in a calm way. That he worked out what he would say to me this morning and I still wouldn't listen. Clearly, I'm unreasonable and self-righteous. He finally said he was done with our relationship. I didn't say anything. He has been threatening this for months now. He texted my best friend to see if her old roommate would be interested in hosting him. I didn't react. I left for a while to be with friends and when I came back he tried to talk to me again. Said that if I could admit I was wrong, then he wouldn't leave. I told him I didn't expect him to be at my side all night, I just wanted more communication. Eventually we got to a place where he felt he had "won". Then I told him I needed him to find a more supportive way of expressing himself and listening to me. He said he did his best this morning and I told him that he was not very nice and he then got mad and went back to being "done" again. He tried to tell me I should move out of the apartment and live with my parents (an hour away from my job), where they are already hosting my sister and niece and have no extra room. I told him I was not leaving, that the lease was in my name and that living with my parents was not what was best for me. He got in my face and tried to intimidate me and called me names. I didn't back down. He threw a plastic bottle at the ceiling. Then when I still didn't concede, he threw a ceramic bowl on the floor. I took a walk and eventually he tried to talk to me again and tell me that if I just admitted I had a problem, he would stay. I told him again that I'm in therapy for my issues and that we also have our own relaitonship issues. There is some grey area but I've been working hard to overcome my existing issues for several years in therapy. He turned the tv on and said he wasn't listening to me. I went to bed. Later he came in and said he didn't want to have a big change again and he would stay. He really wanted to work things out. I felt reluctant. He had been drinking and started in again on how I was causing problems. I stood my ground by stating that all I wanted was for him to be more understanding and that I was allowed to feel my feelings. He ended up freaking out and sleeping on the couch.

Monday morning (today)- He continued to try to bait me into an argument. I ignored him. Eventually I was working from my desk (I can work from home) and he was about to leave. He kept getting in my face and was speaking with such hate that he spit on me several times. I ignored him. He kept trying to say hurtful things. He keep saying he was just reacting to me. If I had just talked to him in the car, he would never have grabbed my wrist. He wouldn't have freaked out if he wasn't so fed up with me, etc. I went to see my psychiatrist and got some anxiety medication to help me. I have contacted the women's shelter to ask what I would need for a PFA. He contacted his therapist about coming in together but she has no openings until Saturday. He  plans to sleep on the couch until then. He still thinks I am the crazy one. He apologized for hurting my arm and said I need to forgive him and move on.

Please someone tell me what this means. Am I stupid for thinking this might get better? Am I making this much worse. I'm trying my hardest to stay calm and maintain my boundaries. I asked him to stay at a friend's and he refused. He thinks I'm being dramatic when I tell him I don't feel safe around him. I don't want to leave because I'm afraid of what he'll do to our dog and my things. This is the first time he has been so aggressive and physical.

I am at a loss. I don't know what he tells his therapist and I understand she wants to validate to build a r/s with him but I do not understand how I am still the crazy one. Even after all he did this weekend, I'm the one with the problem and I'm the one not working hard enough on it... . how do I handle this?

[Bloomer]

It's hard to summarize this but I'll do my best to highlight the important parts. I've been in therapy for 2.5 years and he just started a couple months ago. Since he started, things have only gotten worse.

Monday- I got very upset because I am so stressed about the health of my marriage with dBPD H and also stress of new job position. He is supportive and loving to me while I express my feelings.

Tuesday- I mouthed off to a security guard at a concert who was being very hostile and unclear about what line I should be in/why. Nothing more happened, I just loudly told him he needed to learn how to speak to people and give clear directions.

Friday- We go to a large fundraiser with friends and it seemed that we ended up getting separated a lot. I would want to one thing and he would go off and do his own, which is fine. I just noticed that all of our couple friends seemed to be communicating with their partners about where they were and trying to meet back up. I didn't text him but he didn't text me either. When he asked me why I seemed stressed I told him I felt like he didn't want to be around me and he was actually very supportive and made me feel better. At the after party he got tired and wanted to drive home instead of staying over, as we had planned. I felt disappointed that we weren't going to have a crazy night together but understood he wanted to sleep at home. I could have stayed but I felt a bit awkward staying on my own so I said I'd go too. He asked me in the car what was going on because I was a bit quiet. I just explained that I felt sad that we didn't stay because I wanted to have a fun night out together. He heard "I am angry" and started off on a tangent and told me how I was crazy, etc. and I could have stayed. I kept trying to say calmly that he wasn't hearing what I was feeling. Eventually he parked the car and I tried to get out. He grabbed my arm and I continued to try and get out of the car because I didn't feel that this was a good time to talk. He tightened his grip and bruised my arm.

Saturday-He woke up and started in on me right away about how needy I am and how sick he is of me. I didn't respond so he started saying nasty things and threw a couple non-breakable household items around and slammed doors. He said he was showing me how I act. (I have freaked out in the past because we've been together 2.5 years so I am not always able to keep it all bottled up but have not done anything like this in over 7 months). I did not engage. He kept busy and went to therapy then his friend's house. He sent me a few text messages saying he wanted to talk later and I agreed. He came back and I had friend's over. We pretended like things were ok and even had sex before bed (I had a lot of wine to help me let things slide for the evening).

Sunday- We had breakfast and started to talk about what happened Friday night. He started off by telling me how my behavior over the past week was unacceptable and it's clear that I'm not working on my own relationship issues. He told me that no one would feel how I felt at the party, that I was crazy and that wasn't normal to expect a partner to communicate about where they are. I got up and walked out of the kitchen. He said if I didn't come back and talk, he was leaving. So I tried again. All I wanted was for him to validate my feelings and admit that they were reasonable. If he didn't like the way I expressed them, fine. But I should be allowed to have feelings. He then told me that his therapist said he didn't dysregulate on Saturday. He was just fed up with my behavior because I am not working hard enough on my insecurities. That my fear of abandonment and rejection needs to stop. He is trying his hardest in therapy and he tried to talk to me in a calm way. That he worked out what he would say to me this morning and I still wouldn't listen. Clearly, I'm unreasonable and self-righteous. He finally said he was done with our relationship. I didn't say anything. He has been threatening this for months now. He texted my best friend to see if her old roommate would be interested in hosting him. I didn't react. I left for a while to be with friends and when I came back he tried to talk to me again. Said that if I could admit I was wrong, then he wouldn't leave. I told him I didn't expect him to be at my side all night, I just wanted more communication. Eventually we got to a place where he felt he had "won". Then I told him I needed him to find a more supportive way of expressing himself and listening to me. He said he did his best this morning and I told him that he was not very nice and he then got mad and went back to being "done" again. He tried to tell me I should move out of the apartment and live with my parents (an hour away from my job), where they are already hosting my sister and niece and have no extra room. I told him I was not leaving, that the lease was in my name and that living with my parents was not what was best for me. He got in my face and tried to intimidate me and called me names. I didn't back down. He threw a plastic bottle at the ceiling. Then when I still didn't concede, he threw a ceramic bowl on the floor. I took a walk and eventually he tried to talk to me again and tell me that if I just admitted I had a problem, he would stay. I told him again that I'm in therapy for my issues and that we also have our own relaitonship issues. There is some grey area but I've been working hard to overcome my existing issues for several years in therapy. He turned the tv on and said he wasn't listening to me. I went to bed. Later he came in and said he didn't want to have a big change again and he would stay. He really wanted to work things out. I felt reluctant. He had been drinking and started in again on how I was causing problems. I stood my ground by stating that all I wanted was for him to be more understanding and that I was allowed to feel my feelings. He ended up freaking out and sleeping on the couch.

Monday morning (today)- He continued to try to bait me into an argument. I ignored him. Eventually I was working from my desk (I can work from home) and he was about to leave. He kept getting in my face and was speaking with such hate that he spit on me several times. I ignored him. He kept trying to say hurtful things. He keep saying he was just reacting to me. If I had just talked to him in the car, he would never have grabbed my wrist. He wouldn't have freaked out if he wasn't so fed up with me, etc. I went to see my psychiatrist and got some anxiety medication to help me. I have contacted the women's shelter to ask what I would need for a PFA. He contacted his therapist about coming in together but she has no openings until Saturday. He  plans to sleep on the couch until then. He still thinks I am the crazy one. He apologized for hurting my arm and said I need to forgive him and move on.

Please someone tell me what this means. Am I stupid for thinking this might get better? Am I making this much worse. I'm trying my hardest to stay calm and maintain my boundaries. I asked him to stay at a friend's and he refused. He thinks I'm being dramatic when I tell him I don't feel safe around him. I don't want to leave because I'm afraid of what he'll do to our dog and my things. This is the first time he has been so aggressive and physical.

I am at a loss. I don't know what he tells his therapist and I understand she wants to validate to build a r/s with him but I do not understand how I am still the crazy one. Even after all he did this weekend, I'm the one with the problem and I'm the one not working hard enough on it... . how do I handle this?

[Grey Kitty]

  Haven't seen you for quite a while! Sorry to hear that such a awful situation brings you back here. 

First, safety! He's crossing some big lines here. Holding on to your arm and leaving a bruise. That sounds like criminal domestic violence in nearly any jurisdiction! And blaming you for it is absolutely unacceptable. Read about your options here!

TOOLS: Domestic Violence Against Women

The other reason caution is that abuse tends to escalate from verbal to physical, and from one level of physical abuse to the next. You really don't want to allow this to get any worse.

One other thought along those lines--he may be getting worse because he's stressed over things he's dealing with in therapy, or other things in his life. That still doesn't excuse his behavior one bit. You can protect yourself from him while you have compassion for him.

Consider your options if he escalates further. Call a local DV shelter to figure out what they can do for you. Make sure you always have your cellphone ready and charged to call the police. Prepare yourself with what you would need to get out immediately and go someplace safe. (Cash, possibly a spare credit card or ID, perhaps a change of clothes, any medications you need, perhaps food for you or your dog, etc.)

[Grey Kitty]

Here is my next suggestion, once you feel like you have taken care of any safety concerns: Hold tight to your version of reality!

Your experience:

I felt disappointed that we weren't going to have a crazy night together but understood he wanted to sleep at home.

His experience:

He told me that no one would feel how I felt at the party, that I was crazy and that wasn't normal to expect a partner to communicate about where they are.

Lessons here:

1: Don't let him define your reality based on his feelings.

2: Accept that his version of reality may be a full-on fantasy.

3: You don't have to convince him that your version of reality is correct and his is wrong. It may not be possible. All you have to convince him is that you don't agree with him on it... . and won't be in a big fight over it.

Next thought... . you want validation and empathy from him. It is normal to want that. He may not have the capacity to give it to you. As some of our senior folks have said around here, trying to teach a duck to bark won't work--it will only piss off the duck!

[Bloomer]

I was so relieved that I cried when I saw you had posted a reply. So thank you.

After two days of him being hostile and me keeping zen, he tried to talk to me and was calmer. So I sat down with him. He still thinks my insurities at the party were not based in reality. I said I would admit I didn't handle my anxiety well but they were real not imagined.

Things escalated, non violent, and eventually the abuse came up. He had apologized for the abuse but not in the warmest, softest way he could have. He then said that if his actions were violent, then my threatening to call the police was violent because I was basically threatening to have him deported. I explained that I was doing what I thought I needed to be safe. I think eventually he accepted that I didn't want to deport him, I just wanted to feel safe and make him not be violent.

When he found out that I talked to friends about what happened, he really lost it. He sobbed and said we were done. THere was no going back and that I'd ruined his friendships. He called me vindictive. I told him since I didn't call the cops, I did what I needed for me, which was to let someone know what was going on and make myself feel safe.

Then he went back to wanting me to move out. I told him it made more sense for him to go since all the furniture is mine. This location means a lot to me because my family's history is all around us. I wasn't being vindictive. He said this is all he has. He only has 3 friends and he doesn't want to give up his home.

I am torn. I really can't handle the stress of moving right now. I don't know where I'll live. Finding an apartment that takes dogs is tough in my area. I need to be close to the city. I also don't know if I want to stay in an apartment, that while I love it as my home, is full of memories of us and our life.

My heart is broken. I was still going to fight for this. I had just written his therapist an email before we came in for a session with her this Saturday. I don't understand how he can say there is nothing. I have put so much into this and so has he.

[Grey Kitty]

Is his fear of being deported realistic?  If so, are you in the same situation regarding citizenship and permission to be in the country?

I am assuming that he could be deported and you would not in my suggestions. Whatever the situation I would still draw a very hard line about any physical abuse, and I would include restraining you, or blocking your access to leave as physical abuse. (I believe the law does as well, but you should check local resources)

In your shoes, I would probably tell him that he has had his one and only chance to do this to you without consequences--you will call the police immediately next time. He needs to control himself in this regard, you will have zero tolerance.

However... . I only recommend doing this if you mean it. If those consequences are too tough for you to dish out... . think about what you are willing to do. And do remember that abuse will tend to escalate if you let it.

When I was up against abusive behavior, and my wife had acknowledged being abusive (mostly verbal, but it did escalate to physical a couple times), I had a very simple HARD statement I made:

The very first thing we are addressing is your abuse. At its core the abuse is about you controlling me. I am not saying that I have no issues to address. I am saying that while we are addressing your abuse, I am not discussing my issues or reporting to you over it. That would be giving you the control that your abuse is trying to achieve.

My issues were off the table for her. Anything vaguely like "I abused you because you X" or "I'll stop abusing you when you Y" is simply not acceptable.

We have gone completely beyond that now, but it really helped me at the time a great deal.

I don't know what to say about moving out--it sounds like either of you moving is currently coming up when you are both too worked up to make good decisions or have useful discussions.

I'd say that the question of whether the two of you will live together is much bigger than the question of which of you moves out. Do you know what you want?

 Hang in there--you will make it through this.