Communication Boundaries When You're A Third Party in Custody Case

[Family Court Strategies: When Your Partner Has BPD OR NPD Traits.]

Hi all,

I am the mother of a 19-year-old who is currently in the beginning stages of a custody case for his infant daughter.  While he was in the process of petitioning for custody, his exgf (who exhibits BPD traits) filed first for sole physical/joint legal.  It's been contentious throughout the pregnancy and first few months of the baby being born.  We're very involved in the situation due to their young ages and the fact that our S lives w/us.  We also do a lot of transporting as his gf doesn't have her license.

I'm struggling with the interactions between myself and his ex.  She runs hot and cold.  For a few days, she will send several texts about what the baby is doing (normal interactions between grandparent and parent) but when something triggers her, she becomes hostile, difficult and rude.  I also struggle with resentment because of her poor treatment of my son. 

I'm familiar with BIFF, but where does one draw the line?  It's difficult to have typical conversations that I would otherwise enjoy because of these other factors, not to mention the stress of a custody battle. 

Thanks is advance for any input!

[Veronica2001]

Hi all,

I am the mother of a 19-year-old who is currently in the beginning stages of a custody case for his infant daughter.  While he was in the process of petitioning for custody, his exgf (who exhibits BPD traits) filed first for sole physical/joint legal.  It's been contentious throughout the pregnancy and first few months of the baby being born.  We're very involved in the situation due to their young ages and the fact that our S lives w/us.  We also do a lot of transporting as his gf doesn't have her license.

I'm struggling with the interactions between myself and his ex.  She runs hot and cold.  For a few days, she will send several texts about what the baby is doing (normal interactions between grandparent and parent) but when something triggers her, she becomes hostile, difficult and rude.  I also struggle with resentment because of her poor treatment of my son. 

I'm familiar with BIFF, but where does one draw the line?  It's difficult to have typical conversations that I would otherwise enjoy because of these other factors, not to mention the stress of a custody battle. 

Thanks is advance for any input!

[catnap]

Is she sending nasty texts when she gets triggered or calling you?  An example or two of what boundaries she crosses would be helpful in order to fully respond to your question.

When my son's ex sent me a nasty text I would document, then ignore. 

[Veronica2001]

I had written an example and deleted it.   

The disrespectful texts happen when she's triggered.  It usually happens when she is not in complete control of a situation. 

For instance, this week, we had to change the pick-up/drop off time by an hour.  An hour.  This triggered her.  So I received a text that said, "Thank God the judge will be handling all of this in a few short days."  Another, "You are all driving me insane!  I give and give and it's never enough!" 

If there is anything my son is doing/not doing with the baby that isn't in agreement with, it triggers her.  She will send a text telling me he shouldn't be doing x, y, z couple with insults about S and threats not to allow her to be here. 

In between, I'll receive texts that give me updates about what the baby is doing, she'll send pictures etc.  Classic Jekyll/Hyde.  I think this is the part I find difficult in knowing how to respond. It's so hard to say, "Oh, how cute!" when I'm very resentful and should I even be responding at all?  Should my goal be to try to maintain some type of positive relationship and set strong boundaries with the inappropriate communication?  Is that even realistic? 

No more news on the custody petition.  The L isn't concerned that she filed first but was reviewing his ex's petition. 

[ForeverDad]

I recall one day years ago, to give an example, at an exchange we were talking about the changes needed for an upcoming exchange.  She was waffling over whether to just let me keep him.  I tried to 'help' by offering a simple list of 2 or 3 choices, all fair or in her favor.  She flamed out and retorted, "Then I just won't exchange him!"  I got the point - at least for her - don't try to help by offering choices, she couldn't handle me offering choices.  I guess she saw it as weak waffling boundaries and that triggered her.  So now I try to keep it as simple as possible, often it's not 'fair' to her but strangely she accepts it.

[catnap]

IMO, your best option is to respond to the positive ones and ignore the negative.  I did learn to a certain degree to look at the negative ones with clinical detachment--oh, black and white thinking, etc. 

I got a barrage of texts one evening everything from their relationship was rainbows and butterflies to your son is awful and if I wanted to know about their relationship I need to ask her to get the real truth.  I ignored.  She tried to get a response out of me by sending my son over to demand a response.  This went on for over a week.  This was a few weeks prior to her being served.  Not pleasant, but I never did respond. 

One strategy might be to have the advantage of unfiltered communication from her until the hearing.  When triggered they can often give you important information.  However, anything that refers directly to your son's parenting skills might need to be answered with the BIFF method.  When you see the L next, perhaps a brief discussion on what is best for the case regarding your communication with the exgf.   

[Veronica2001]

ForeverDad, yes, we've had similar experiences.  I guess she'll be upset regardless, and being firm in our boundaries is the best bet.

catnap, thanks for the advice.  I like it.

[catnap]

Just checking in on you to see how things are going. 

[Veronica2001]

Thanks so much!

I don't have to worry about communication boundaries at this point because there is none.  My son's exgf said she wanted nothing to do with me and if I wanted to know about the baby, I would have to ask him.  So, it's been eerily quiet.  I guess I didn't realize how much "noise" she created in my mind.  It's a relief in a sense, but also is very sad. 

We were concerned that once she received the petition, she might keep his daughter from him but the opposite has happened.  She's being completely cooperative.  The biggest challenge right now is making sure our son doesn't let his guard down. 

Tomorrow, they go to court for child support.  At the end of the month, they'll have their first custody hearing. 

[catnap]

Your son letting his guard down could be a big mistake.  You are very correct in advising your son not to do so.  Please let us know (when you have a chance) what happened in court today. 

[livednlearned]

The silence probably won't last too long. She's going to need you for something, at some point, whether it's child care or whatever. And then you'll be back in, as though nothing happened, until you're out again.   

It's great that she's being cooperative! That's good for everyone. At the beginning of my custody battle, N/BPDx had a good lawyer who counseled him to be cooperative, and N/BPDx became a model dad. He even did activities with S13 outside the house, which isn't something he did during the first 10 years of my son's life. My son loved it. But it didn't last, and then it got worse, and then it got disturbing.

How is your son doing? Is he handling all of this ok?

[Veronica2001]

Court went as well as could be expected, I think.  My son was ordered to pay a little over the bare minimum and we were pleasantly surprised.  It was a 1/4 of the amount his L calculated.  I'm not sure if it will remain at this amount as they will have another CS meeting directly after the custody hearing.  In any case, there are no payments required until the day after the custody hearing.  His uBPDexgf was not happy~her face said it all.

The four of us (S, ex, her father) were all in the same waiting area with enough comfortable space between us.  My son had the baby with him and his ex approached to take the baby.  She came back over to talk to me as if nothing had ever happened. So LnL, I guess I'm back in already!  That didn't take long.  Does the predictability of the behavior help to confirm that she may really suffer from a PD?  Her father was very pleasant and also acted as if his long, belligerent texts didn't exist.  I was pleasant too.  I've learned (well. . .am learning) to process the emotions and let them drain away, so I truly have no hard feelings toward them.  Knowing we're on some even ground at this point helps too. 

A few hours later I received a text from her father (shocking, I know).  He was advising me to have a "sit down w/S and explain that he should grow up and make better decisions than he is."  He said he was telling me this b/c he wants him to be an involved father and that it's his opinion that as he had to learn to put his daughter first, my S is not there yet.  He told me he wouldn't go into detail until his D talks w/her L but he said my S wasn't being very smart on social media.

Knowing he probably wouldn't be able to resist, I asked him for some specifics, which he provided.  They were completely inaccurate and easily proven as false.  He assured me he only had my S's best interest in telling me these things.  He doesn't want him to lose his deserved time w/our GD.  Is this guy for real?  I've decided to remain gracious but keep strong boundaries.

As for my son, he was thrilled with yesterday's outcome, not b/c he's trying to avoid financial responsibility, which he isn't, but b/c he felt the outcome was fair.  They had a little argument in the waiting area regarding the baby.  His ex asked him if he had any formula b/c the baby was getting fussy and he told her she didn't need to eat, that she was tired and had just eaten 2 hours ago.  She insisted she needed to eat but he wouldn't give her the formula he brought for later.  She couldn't calm her down, so finally his ex brought her back over to my S and asked if he wanted to hold her before they went in.  He did and put her to sleep.     After months of being told he is incompetent in one way or another, this was a small victory for him too.  Though he's done a great job disengaging, he has a very hard time being in the same physical space as his ex.  I keep recommending he see a T and on the really tough days, he seems to consider it but hasn't followed through yet. 

I did a little research on the judge that was appointed for the custody hearing.  I came across a recent criminal case he presided over and in the sentencing, he called the guilty party a narcissist.  I'll take that as a good sign.

[livednlearned]

Does the predictability of the behavior help to confirm that she may really suffer from a PD?

It's hard to say if she has a PD, but it's probably safe to say you're on the right site  . Personality disorders are how we refer to people who have severe emotional dysregulation. Since we all have emotions, and there are healthy ways to deal with emotions and not-healthy ways, it's hard to say exactly when someone can be diagnosed as having a PD without a trained professional. But if you see a pattern of behavior that is consistent with BPD sufferers, and the tools for communicating with them and taking care of yourself seem to work, then you have a handy map to help guide you.

A few hours later I received a text from her father (shocking, I know).  He was advising me to have a "sit down w/S and explain that he should grow up and make better decisions than he is."  He said he was telling me this b/c he wants him to be an involved father and that it's his opinion that as he had to learn to put his daughter first, my S is not there yet.  He told me he wouldn't go into detail until his D talks w/her L but he said my S wasn't being very smart on social media.

This is going to happen a lot, probably. My ex does this. He will write a text message to say that I am alienating S13. Then he will come into court with this "evidence," and have me read it out, as though it is proof that I am alienating S13. It's a version of the "feelings are facts" stuff that pwBPD do. You don't need facts if you feel that something is happening, but wait, you kinda do  so then they find some bits and pieces that will help them persuade other people (like judges) that their feeling about something is based in reality. My ex tries to get me read six-page emails he has written, and then my lawyer does her thing, and things get very surreal because it's kinda sad and pathetic what he's trying to do. And he's an attorney, which makes it even more sad and pathetic. 

Knowing he probably wouldn't be able to resist, I asked him for some specifics, which he provided.  They were completely inaccurate and easily proven as false.  He assured me he only had my S's best interest in telling me these things.  He doesn't want him to lose his deserved time w/our GD.  Is this guy for real?  I've decided to remain gracious but keep strong boundaries.

Excellent strategy!

[catnap]

I am glad things went smoothly, but do keep your guard and boundaries up like you are doing. 

IMO, the father is running the show.  His text was an attempt to undermine your confidence on the custody hearing.  I would have copies handy of the specifics he mentioned.  As LnL mentioned they often think they can persuade folks with bits and pieces. 

Though he's done a great job disengaging, he has a very hard time being in the same physical space as his ex.  I keep recommending he see a T and on the really tough days, he seems to consider it but hasn't followed through yet.

My son found that to be true also.  He couldn't really fully explain it. . .something to do with her eyes that made him feel totally uncomfortable.  He didn't feel he needed therapy, but I would mention occasionally.  He finally started going to therapy and has found that it is helping him a great deal. 

[Veronica2001]

Yes, I do think I'm on the right site too! :)The advice from those of you who have people in your lives that have been diagnosed w/BPD (or are blatantly disordered) has worked so well that even if she (or they) don't have a full blown PD, there are enough parallels in their behavior to successfully use the same tools and techniques in communicating and interacting with them.  For the sake of my GD, I'd like to know with more certainty, but that is likely not going to happen.

Her father really does love to go on very long rants through texting, but I agree that he was trying to intimidate us under the guise of being helpful, knowledgeable, and caring.  I told him that I was sure the truth would be separated from the fiction in court so he knew I was not at all intimidated.  He's made accusations four or five times with a ton of confidence but hasn't been able to actually substantiate any of them.  Yes, LnL, I see it as sad and pathetic as well in this case too.  I almost feel sorry for him because it's just not working.  I definitely see some narcissistic traits but he always backs down and ends up apologizing or saying something to neutralize his aggressive comments.  I've kept all of his texts and made sure I addressed the false accusations. 

As always, thank you for the invaluable input and for sharing your experiences.   

[livednlearned]

IMO, the father is running the show.  His text was an attempt to undermine your confidence on the custody hearing.  I would have copies handy of the specifics he mentioned.  As LnL mentioned they often think they can persuade folks with bits and pieces. 

And this habit of ranting, and trying to persuade you -- this can be quite helpful! If you're engaged in the emotions and the drama, it's awful, but if you are disengaged and detached, then you can see the clues to their strategy.

So if there is a hearing, there's a good chance the other L (or father representing his D pro se) is going to say that your son is irresponsible on social media. Your son may want to think carefully about the best message his L could stand up to say on this matter. "My client shut down his FB account two months ago and has not posted anything during this time because he is focused on school work and being a great dad and wants no distractions." Or whatever. Many divorce lawyers will tell their clients to stop posting on social media because it causes a lot of headaches for everyone.

The other thing that pwBPD tend to do is accuse you of the very thing they are doing. If I remember correctly, the father's D was posting irresponsible things on Facebook about her drinking? So the rants can often be clues about things to pay attention to.

[ForeverDad]

The other thing that pwBPD tend to do is accuse you of the very thing they are doing.

That's called projection or transference.  Quite common, with BPD it's a way to Shift Blame onto others, it is a Blaming disorder after all.  Those terms may not mean the exact same thing, but we're not professionals so I wouldn't worry about being clinically precise.

[Veronica2001]

And this habit of ranting, and trying to persuade you -- this can be quite helpful! If you're engaged in the emotions and the drama, it's awful, but if you are disengaged and detached, then you can see the clues to their strategy.

(Hope the quote comes through properly)

That is a great point and why I've allowed it and have responded to his texts.  I've managed to be disengaged enough that my blood pressure no longer skyrockets when I see his name on my phone!  He gives me so much information that we can use to prepare for what they may use in court.  But I may have made a strategic mistake yesterday by telling him if he had any more concerns he needed to contact my husband (who won't give him the time of day) or my son directly, as we had another incident.

My S had his D in the afternoon and she was clearly in discomfort.  This has happened several times so he texted to ask how often/how much the baby had been eating.  He thinks she's being overfed.  She had her shots yesterday, so it could have been from that, but he told her he thought she was feeding her too much.  Major trigger~anytime her ability as a mother is criticized (in her mind). 

Like clockwork, I received a text from her father w/another long rant telling me to tell my S to stop harassing his D at work (he did text her but she called HIM).  I said I thought we should let them work it out.  He responded by saying he was no longer going to communicate w/me, that S was a bully and controlling and I was enabling him by not addressing it.  Oh, the irony. 

I've been aware of S's exgf projecting onto him for a while and now it's becoming more and more evident that her father is doing much of the same.  More clues to their mental state.  They are really like the same person only different genders and maturity levels (well, that's even questionable). 

Of course, he bucked the boundary, but then apologized after (note, his communication w/me ended for about 15 minutes).  Hopefully, I have enough information to formulate possible criticisms of S.  I just didn't feel I needed to subject myself to his insults anymore.  The pattern is:  exgf is triggered, she goes to dad crying (he has told me this on numerous occasions) who is triggered, he flies off the handle, contacts someone who will listen and spews, then apologizes w/excuses for behavior.  Narcissist/borderline dynamic, perhaps?  Or have I just been reading too much psychology lately?  

[catnap]

My S had his D in the afternoon and she was clearly in discomfort.  This has happened several times so he texted to ask how often/how much the baby had been eating.  He thinks she's being overfed.  She had her shots yesterday, so it could have been from that, but he told her he thought she was feeding her too much.  Major trigger~anytime her ability as a mother is criticized (in her mind).  

My son's ex instead of exploring other reasons for the baby crying would just stick a bottle in her mouth.  It appears your son's exgf may be doing the same thing.  

Is your son going to the doctor appointments?  If not, he needs to go if at all possible.  He cannot control what she does when the baby is in her care, but asking the doctor in front of his ex about feeding schedules, etc. might help.

Thoughts:

I was advised to give my babies a dose of Tylenol prior to getting their shots and then follow-up doses for the next twenty-four hours as needed to help with the discomfort.  Same thing with my GD when she was a baby. Always ask your pediatrician first.  

Burping: sometimes needs patience, something PDs are not famous for.  

Could she possibly just be thirsty vs hungry?

Hopefully, I have enough information to formulate possible criticisms of S.

He was simply asking for information to help evaluate his daughter's distress.  Apparently, the response lead him to believe that overfeeding might be the cause.  My guess is that the baby is handed over to your son with very little info on when last fed, diaper changed, etc.  If that is the case:  He A. needs to be sure to ask, and B. make sure he is doing the same.  

[ForeverDad]

About vaccinations, many shots have combined multiple vaccines.  Some parents are concerned and want to proceed more cautiously.  If you have that concern about potential reactions in bulk, ask the pediatrician or nurse to administer the doses separately.

[livednlearned]

It sounds like you see the pattern, and that's good. Once the hearing is over, are you going to change whether you communicate directly with him?

A lot of us end up parallel parenting -- it's hard to do when a young baby is involved and a custody case is active. But the principles might be helpful. It's not easy because you end up parenting in a vacuum. If the baby is sick, your first course of action might be to ask the other parent questions or get information. If you can't get that, then you turn to a pediatrician or call the nurse hotline.

BPD sufferers get overwhelmed with their own feelings and can't set them aside to deal with the real issue, which is the baby feeling better. So it might be good to give her one shot at helping figure out what's wrong, instead of thinking she can take feedback, or direction, and then turn elsewhere to get the baby the care she needs.

It's tough, and sad, but it's part of the disorder. You can't reason with unreasonable people.

[Veronica2001]

I'm going to try to quote until I get it right, so bear with me.   

My son's ex instead of exploring other reasons for the baby crying would just stick a bottle in her mouth.  It appears your son's exgf may be doing the same thing.

 

I think this is probably the case.  They do tell each other when she last ate, but that's the extent of it most of the time.  They both need to share more information and I'm hoping with this latest episode, they'll realize that.  I think his ex would be happy to coparent if she was never questioned and he did everything she told him to do.

Both his L and I have urged him to go to doctor's appointments but they are scheduled when he has to work and I don't know how much of an effort he's putting into going.  I think he's trying to avoid being w/his ex.  But this is an important area where he needs to demonstrate involvement.  I suggested he ask her for a copy of the info that is typically provided after a physical.  We'll see.  He asked her which vaccinations she had but she wasn't sure and was going to get back to him.  He did, on one occasion, call the doctor's office when the baby was very sick with a cold. 

It's very difficult to suggest anything to her regarding baby care.  It's another trigger.  She never took prenatal or parenting classes and while my son has me, she doesn't have her mother.  Her father has a girlfriend that lives with them, but I don't know how involved she is. 

It sounds like you see the pattern, and that's good. Once the hearing is over, are you going to change whether you communicate directly with him?

I actually was thinking about this last night.  I think when all is said and done, I'm going to tell him that if he needs to discuss anything, I'd like it to be in person.  They both hide behind their screens.  Case in point:  today, he texted once again w/more complaints (his remorse is short-lived).  While I addressed the false allegations, I reminded him that the two parents had to work it out.  Most of the text was a rant about my son.  We were on our way to their house to drop the baby off, so I told him if he wanted to talk to my S, he'd be there in a few minutes.  I wanted to see what would happen.  When S approached the house, her father was outside and walked away when S came up to the porch.  I figured as much. 

BPD sufferers get overwhelmed with their own feelings and can't set them aside to deal with the real issue, which is the baby feeling better. So it might be good to give her one shot at helping figure out what's wrong, instead of thinking she can take feedback, or direction, and then turn elsewhere to get the baby the care she needs.

I think she's in the middle of the road with this.  She's concerned about the baby, but definitely more focused on her own feelings.  Great advice, as always.

FD, that's exactly what I did with my own children and I have forgotten so much.  My youngest is 8.  Thanks for the reminder.  And also wanted to tell you that in my other thread, you mentioned there might a narcissistic/borderline dynamic between father and daughter.  Very perceptive, I think!

[catnap]

He can call and find out if she has scheduled the baby's next well-check and then make arrangements with work to be able to attend.  If possible, perhaps you can go with him for moral support.  At least in court he can say due to work commitments he could not attend the other visits, but has made arrangements for x date and time to be present at his daughter's next well-check.

He might be able to go by the office and ask for copies of all of her visits. 

Opposing counsel may ask him what vaccinations has your daughter had, what type of formula do you give her, etc.  He can also relate that he did consult with the dr's office when she was sick.

Otherwise, he is going to start hearing "the doctor said" and he has no way of knowing if the doctor actually did.

There are going to be many occasions in the future that he will need to be in the same room with his ex for his daughter's sake.  I think the more he does it, the easier it will get. 

[Veronica2001]

Haha~he's already hearing, "the doctor said". . .

Yes, I agree~he really needs to form his own relationship with the doctor's office.  She's too unreliable to depend on the correct information.  She was supposed to bring the baby's well-check info today but forgot.  If she doesn't follow through, he's going to call the office and request they mail him a copy.   

I think for a long time, S avoided being with her b/c she would use any opportunity to try to reconnect with him.  Now, he has so much animosity towards her, it overwhelms him even more in her presence.  But you're right~ it will probably get easier w/frequency.  He just needs to grin and bear it for the baby's sake.  There's no way she'd let him take her to the doctor w/out her.