Dealing with the deception.

[anxiety5]

I'm sure you guys are pros with dealing with the deception. For those who may seek some guidance, I wanted to share something I learned from my situation. You must remember why these people are so defensive. You must remember the concepts behind narcissism if they have narcissistic traits. It's all about false sense of self and maintaining it by avoiding shame. Understanding this, will set you free. Let me explain.

These people have a fortress of defense mechanisms that will literally self destruct if forced to confront or deal with the core issues they lock away. It's one of the most complex and amazing things I've ever seen, the level of which they deflect, minimize, blame shift, project, deny, repress or rage in defense during a confrontation that shines a light into their behavior. This is incredibly important to understand if you want truth.

The girl I got wrapped up in was all the typical things (read my first post when I signed up for the lengthy details if you so choose) Within a few months it became evident that something was wrong. I all but caught her cheating. And the way in which I entrapped her was indefensible and left her reaching for some way to explain it. I doubt I ever got the full extent of the cheating but I did get the admission something I understand a lot of you don't ever get. I wanted to share how I got that.

First and foremost, NEVER confront them if you don't have tangible proof that something has happened. If you are on their trail, be nicer not more reserved. (this is difficult when your anxiety is high and anger about to explode) As manipulative as they are, they are also self absorbed so they aren't observing YOU as closely as you are observing THEM. So lull them to sleep thinking it's business as usual. Especially when you are close to getting the proof you need to get to validate your concerns.

Once you feel confident in whatever you have and want to confront them, you MUST do it in person. You MUST not give them an easy out to hang up the phone or simply not reply to a text you send. When you confront them in passive ways you are igniting their defense mechanisms and this is what they are masters of. You give them 20 minutes and they will contrive a reasonable excuse and you will end up being the one apologizing for being nosy despite knowing in your heart that whatever your intuition told you is factual. It's critical you do it in a setting where there is no escape route.

This is the hard part. You MUST validate their behavior. Remember, you want confirmation that it happened. I realize that most people don't understand this but I do. It's confirmation that you aren't crazy and that this person is bad for you. Therapists or friends and family may tell you "If you think that way, than it doesn't matter if it's true or not you should just leave for even feeling that way." This is incredibly naive to the absolute mind screw that these people do to you. Disregard them. I know that you need this confirmation for your sanity. So let's review: The way to get it is by confronting them in person. Do it on a lazy Sunday where she isn't rushing off to work in an hour or you don't have plans. Do it when there is no escape route. Next, present the fool proof evidence to them.  And last but not least the hard part. Validate their behavior. Rather than saying "Admit to this now! How dare you do this. Just freaking tell me you did it I know you did!" That is going to be a disaster. You need to approach it differently. Remember from my opening statement here, you MUST avoid shame. You MUST avoid the activation of their defense mechanism. You do this through validation.  After 2 hours of my ex saying nothing happened, I looked at her and I said

"Listen. You were going through a really hard time. I'm not judging you. In a lot of ways, I wouldn't blame you for being weak in a moment or two during that time. I just want you to know that I'm not crazy, and it's upsetting to me that I'm trying to understand you better so that I can be better for you but you are denying me the chance to fix whatever it is that may have allowed things to get so bad that this happened. I'm just asking that you please talk to me. Just tell me what happened. I know when I first brought this up you didn't want to come out and just tell me. I get that. It's hard. Let's just start this conversation over again. Please know I have no intentions of quitting you. I just want to know the truth so I can not feel like I'm losing my mind and to get to work on being better for you."

Vomit.

I know this probably makes you feel sick reading it. It made me feel sick saying it. But if you rage at them, blow up at them and corner them you are never going to get the information you seek! So, you have to do what it takes to get it. This is how you do it. Her hands clutched together, she looked up at me and said, Ok, you deserve to know the truth. Here is what happened... .mind you the story she told me was still full of damage control, spin and I'm sure edited and omitted truths, that didn't matter.

I stopped listening about a minute into it. I got what I wanted. Confirmation that I was not crazy. Proof that my intuition is right. In that moment of validation, I knew two things. One, I could not trust her. Two, I could trust myself. It didn't matter what she said after that. I knew all my suspicions were most likely right. All I needed was to get the truth from her about the conceptual truth I knew, that she was unfaithful. The details beyond that were a footnote.

I was weak and unknowing back then but if you want to ultimate payback to these people, that's the minute in your head when you understand that a boundary was crossed that's not able to be fixed. So, you wait until she's done talking and you turn to her and smile and say "Get out of my house." She will be taken back. I thought you said you understood? I thought you wanted to talk? Screw that. Don't be mean, just kick her out. You have all the power now. You FINALLY have the confirmation you need. You have fueled yourself with a powerful reason to never allow her back into your life again. That's priceless.

One last note. I used to be (and I bet a lot of guys are this way) passive agressive with my boundaries. I'd make comments prior to that when she talked about a co-worker who cheated. I'd use it as a chance to "air it out there" that I'd NEVER tolerate that crap. If someone cheated I'd kick them out immediately. DO NOT DO THIS EVER. Your boundaries are your boundaries alone. Most of the time you are passively aggressively attempting to remind them indirectly of a deal breaker and your reason of doing this is because you are worried they have done that very thing to you. Remember, shame and defense. Don't inform them of your deal breakers. That's only going to reinforce to them how hard they need to work to NEVER get caught and how deep the fox hole they need to dig to defend at all costs ever admitting to this if confronted in the future. They don't want that abandonment triggered. So in approaching it this way you are teaching them to sure up their defenses in the very areas you are seeking truths. Just keep your deal breakers and boundaries to yourself and in your own head. If anything, minimize them if you want to bring them up and probe if they have breached them. When they don't think any consequences are in store for their behavior, that is the only time you will ever get the truth.

[patientandclear]

"I always knew you were out there and I was willing to be by myself until I found you."

This had such a powerful affect on me. I thought it meant we were so special ... .He must cherish what we had. Would never leave. And so on.

But in light of information I pieced together later it actually meant "I always knew you (The One) were out there and I was willing to break up suddenly and catastrophically with all those women I used to think were The One until I found you."

[Forestaken]

There is a link between cancers that appear then suddenly without medical treatment disappear & people with BPD.

[Danie14]

All of it. My whole life. Everything of importance.


When we first got together and you know we’re getting to know each other I told him who I was and what I wanted in my life, for my life. I wanted a house of our own so we had something to leave to our kids when we’re gone. Someplace where they don’t have to worry about finding or having a place to live. Someplace where we have roots. I told him I wanted to become a foster parent someday, so I could help those kids who needed a safe place to be. It what my mom officially did for many years and what my dad did unofficially for many years. What my grandparents did for kids. I told him I wanted to travel the world and see everything I could see, experience life as much as possible. I told him that I wanted to be able to look back at our lives and have happy memories.

He agreed and said he wanted these things, too.

Now 20+ yrs have passed and we do not own a house although his mom has tried to ‘give’ us two houses he’s refused each time and now his siblings live in those houses. I’m happy for them but upset for us. For me, for my kids really. He’s flat out said he will not be a foster parent at all, that was about 8 yrs ago when I asked him about it. He will not travel anywhere with me. He just won’t do it he says he’s done all his traveling and doesn’t want to go anywhere else. Oh, he talks and talks and talks about this and that but talk is cheap. It isn’t going to happen unless we actually plan for it to happen. He won’t do that. The excuses are we have no money. While he’s opening another little something he’s bought from the internet. Another new toy he wanted and had to have. Shoot, we have a basement full of stuff that he’s bought for our ‘someday’ house and our ‘someday’ travel….it just sits there and collects dust.

I look back on my life and see many, many unpleasant memories. Hateful and hurtful. It’s all been a lie. And that’s a very hard pill to swallow.

[Cipher13]

anxiety5 you are a very wise person that I am guess (not having read any of your posts before) that you have a lot of experience.

You will also notice she will positively reinforce behaviors much like a parent does to a child. I helped my girl clean up her living room (she's a single mom) and she overwhelmingly told me how amazing I was for doing this. How I'm a saint, etc.  Also, when she gets you to go places maybe you don't want to go, she will bomb you the first couple times into how amazing it is to be there with YOU. How you made it a memorable time. This is nothing more than elaborate conditioning. If you are a co-dependent this will destroy you. CD types validate their self worth by the way others feel or react to them. So she is basically training you like a monkey given a banana when you behave or do mundane chores. Ever eager for a banana you and I (the monkey) will adopt the chore or behavior into our routine. Except the banana doesn't come next time. That previously adored task you did, is now your responsibility and it's expected, not rewarded.

This just basically describes my life to the letter. I am a banana seekign monkey. Its been engrained in me for so many years that even though I can feel how wrong it is and how hurtful it is to me I feel completely powerless to stopp it.

[goldylamont]

Therapists or friends and family may tell you "If you think that way, than it doesn't matter if it's true or not you should just leave for even feeling that way." This is incredibly naive to the absolute mind screw that these people do to you. Disregard them. I know that you need this confirmation for your sanity.

wow anxiety5 i truly feel that you are the first person i've read who has expressed how i felt about is so well. it's not just therapists or friends/family but even some posters here told me in the past that the truth of the situation doesn't really matter---but to me, it definitely did matter. because i truly wanted to find out if it was me... .if i was crazy/abusive/scary.

i don't think i've ever read a better explanation on how to work with these situations and get at least some of the truths out of the situation and as this was so important for me, i think it's so important to share with others. i hope others can take something from this.

there are a few situations where i used sleuth techniques similar to yours to get the truth of the situation. i could explain in more detail later if others are interested but these are in way older posts, another story. and all i could say is that finding out the truth was both gratifying for my own self worth, yet horrifying to know that she was capable of doing it.

the thing you mention that i was never aware of was the validation part. genius. i was unaware of the term "validation" at the time because i had never even heard of the concept of BPD or personality disorders. none of this came to light until a full year later after the breakup. all i had at the time were my gut instincts. and also i feel subconsciously perhaps meditation had helped me to detach from my emotions at the time enough to sense 'the truth' and react in ways to get it out of her. again, another story. but to this day i am still so grateful i had those moments as over time it did make me feel vindicated and less crazy.

so thank you for sharing. i wish it were more common to discuss situations such as this. i find myself trying to express to others here ways to understand the games being played yet the tricky part is doing this in a way that doesn't offend the non by being too open too early about some of the manipulative aspects with some pwBPD. the right info at the wrong time won't really hit its mark. at any rate, good stuff i appreciate it.