How do I get out of this?

[Family Court Strategies: When Your Partner Has BPD OR NPD Traits.]

My exH was on supervised visitation this summer and I asked for a bunch of stuff at first in exchange for letting him off the hook.  But as usual, I backed down a lot.  In the end, I acceded to a lot of his wishes.  I wanted a parent coordinator.  He claimed that his therapists (pscyhologist and psychiatrist) were against it because it interfered w/his therapy.  And now I realize his docs may have not really ever been against it.

So as part of our agreement, we agreed to retain a PC for 12 months but:  I have to pay, she is retained for a year and then is automatically dropped, we can only meet her in person up to six visits.  All of that I can handle.  But I also agreed to put in that she can't contact his mental health professionals.  If she tries, she is automatically terminated.  Also, she can't so much as mention any medicine he might be taking or ask him about it, or she's automatically terminated.  This is in our new consent order that I signed 3 weeks ago.

One of the reasons I agreed to all this is that I (stupidly) thought exH would calm down once the court stuff was dropped, and we could see how we could work together without having a PC.  The last one was aggressive but really did push his buttons.  (I know that I may partially have felt that way because I'm so used to walking on eggshells!)

I begged him to sign this agreement to save money having to go to court!  So I can't turn around and say it was bad.

But now his mental health issues are ramping up, he is likely not taking the medicines he should be taking.  I keep kicking myself for letting him off the hook, and my kids are so young that I get nervous about him.

What's the worst is:  I don't know for sure if he is seeing the doctors he has been seeing for over a year.  He could drop them tomorrow and I wouldn't know.  If nothing else, he at least needs talk therapy to deal with everything, and will need it more as the kids get older and trigger him more with whatever they say or do.

I can't make him take his medicine but I do want him to stay in talk therapy.  So many things trigger him that he clearly needs it.

So we need a PC to help us manage, coparent, and do the right things.  We are supposed to start with this one in November (that was in the order too because I wanted to give us a chance to try on our won.)  I don't know if any PC will take us on under the conditions in our order.  We picked the name of a PC already who seemed flexible about various things, but we have yet to talk to or meet her.   I think our family really needs help with managing a lot of stuff, and one of the big things is making sure he is staying in therapy or finding out what's wrong if his behavior starts changing.

If I had just gone to court for a PC, surely the judge would have appointed one with none of these stupid conditions.

There are a few ways I can get out of this:

-Obviously if he does something bad enough, I can go to court for various things and make new demands, including letters from his doctors saying he's being treated, etc.  I don't have enough ammo to do that yet.

-Once we show our PC the agreement, she may reject it and say she won't work with us.  Unfortunately, I told exH over the summer that if that happened, we'll look until we find one who will work with us just on our decision making and kid issues and not on his mental health issues.

-I can tell him we need another counselor to help us deal with his mental health issues, and say I'm going to court to have one appointed, and maybe he'd give in and let the PC handle it.  But I am afraid of having a court case open while he's still getting our kids unsupervised.  I don't want him being unnecessarily triggered.  (That's why it was stupid that I didn't do some of this while he was still under supervision.  It's like I just punted down the line... .)

-Maybe the best possible way to deal with it:  Privately talk to the PC we chose, explain the situation, and see if she will take us on and recommend a few things, like that he give more frequent reports.  That way, she is making the recommendations, and may even convince exH.  If he rejects the recomendation, I go to court over it.  It will look like it came from her, not just me.

However, if I see her and she does not want to get this involved, I'm kind of locked into this agreement.  She may be a passive PC.  We already terminated the other one because I wanted to see if we could have a fresh start.

Anyone else have any clever ways of getting out of this without pissing off exH more than normal?  He takes sticking to your word VERY seriously.  So to get out of this, he either has to do something bad (so I can point to his own behavior as a reason), or another professional has to step in, sort of.

[momtara]

My exH was on supervised visitation this summer and I asked for a bunch of stuff at first in exchange for letting him off the hook.  But as usual, I backed down a lot.  In the end, I acceded to a lot of his wishes.  I wanted a parent coordinator.  He claimed that his therapists (pscyhologist and psychiatrist) were against it because it interfered w/his therapy.  And now I realize his docs may have not really ever been against it.

So as part of our agreement, we agreed to retain a PC for 12 months but:  I have to pay, she is retained for a year and then is automatically dropped, we can only meet her in person up to six visits.  All of that I can handle.  But I also agreed to put in that she can't contact his mental health professionals.  If she tries, she is automatically terminated.  Also, she can't so much as mention any medicine he might be taking or ask him about it, or she's automatically terminated.  This is in our new consent order that I signed 3 weeks ago.

One of the reasons I agreed to all this is that I (stupidly) thought exH would calm down once the court stuff was dropped, and we could see how we could work together without having a PC.  The last one was aggressive but really did push his buttons.  (I know that I may partially have felt that way because I'm so used to walking on eggshells!)

I begged him to sign this agreement to save money having to go to court!  So I can't turn around and say it was bad.

But now his mental health issues are ramping up, he is likely not taking the medicines he should be taking.  I keep kicking myself for letting him off the hook, and my kids are so young that I get nervous about him.

What's the worst is:  I don't know for sure if he is seeing the doctors he has been seeing for over a year.  He could drop them tomorrow and I wouldn't know.  If nothing else, he at least needs talk therapy to deal with everything, and will need it more as the kids get older and trigger him more with whatever they say or do.

I can't make him take his medicine but I do want him to stay in talk therapy.  So many things trigger him that he clearly needs it.

So we need a PC to help us manage, coparent, and do the right things.  We are supposed to start with this one in November (that was in the order too because I wanted to give us a chance to try on our won.)  I don't know if any PC will take us on under the conditions in our order.  We picked the name of a PC already who seemed flexible about various things, but we have yet to talk to or meet her.   I think our family really needs help with managing a lot of stuff, and one of the big things is making sure he is staying in therapy or finding out what's wrong if his behavior starts changing.

If I had just gone to court for a PC, surely the judge would have appointed one with none of these stupid conditions.

There are a few ways I can get out of this:

-Obviously if he does something bad enough, I can go to court for various things and make new demands, including letters from his doctors saying he's being treated, etc.  I don't have enough ammo to do that yet.

-Once we show our PC the agreement, she may reject it and say she won't work with us.  Unfortunately, I told exH over the summer that if that happened, we'll look until we find one who will work with us just on our decision making and kid issues and not on his mental health issues.

-I can tell him we need another counselor to help us deal with his mental health issues, and say I'm going to court to have one appointed, and maybe he'd give in and let the PC handle it.  But I am afraid of having a court case open while he's still getting our kids unsupervised.  I don't want him being unnecessarily triggered.  (That's why it was stupid that I didn't do some of this while he was still under supervision.  It's like I just punted down the line... .)

-Maybe the best possible way to deal with it:  Privately talk to the PC we chose, explain the situation, and see if she will take us on and recommend a few things, like that he give more frequent reports.  That way, she is making the recommendations, and may even convince exH.  If he rejects the recomendation, I go to court over it.  It will look like it came from her, not just me.

However, if I see her and she does not want to get this involved, I'm kind of locked into this agreement.  She may be a passive PC.  We already terminated the other one because I wanted to see if we could have a fresh start.

Anyone else have any clever ways of getting out of this without pissing off exH more than normal?  He takes sticking to your word VERY seriously.  So to get out of this, he either has to do something bad (so I can point to his own behavior as a reason), or another professional has to step in, sort of.

[Grey Kitty]

momtara, I think you need to acknowledge that your exh's mental health (or lack of it!) is his own problem, and you have no control over it.

I highly recommend you think long and hard about this question:

Is your exH a danger to your kids. Especially think about specific concrete behavior that would make this seem true. Some things would be clearcut. Others might not. It might be a gut feeling of yours, which you should honor and believe, even if you cannot do a very good job of explaining exactly why.

Then once you have a handle on that question... .decide what your answer is today. Or for the next scheduled visitation.

If the answer is "No, he isn't really a danger to my kids right now", keep documenting things, but just let it go. Stop trying to get him treated--your track record of actually helping him is bad, and won't get better. Stop engaging with him.

If the answer is "Yes, he is a danger to my kids NOW", the game is completely different.

At this point, getting him mad (when he doesn't have custody of your kids) is a non-issue. And at this point, the courts can do something to help you, if you make the right case to them about this danger. Keep your kids safe, and get your lawyer and possibly the police to help you.

[Matt]

Yeah, I agree with Grey Kitty.

Watch his behavior - not subtle things which you may reasonably interpret as causes for concern, but specific behaviors which cause problems for you or - especially - for the kids.

Take careful note when that happens - what exactly did he do, and exactly how did that impact the kids?  Or, how would it be likely to impact the kids if it happened again?  (If he drives drunk but nobody is hurt, for example, it's still a big issue, because if he does it again, it would put the kids at risk.)

You just have to make some judgments about what is serious enough to warrant going back to court.  Think about how the kids are impacted;  and whether the behavior is something that reasonable people might do;  and whether your husband can deny it credibly.

For example, if he would hit one of the kids, and if there are witnesses, then I would certainly suggest you go back to court immediately - that same day if possible - with pictures of the injury and with the names of witnesses who will back up what you say.

But if he says something to you, that the kids don't hear, which you think is a little crazy, that might not be a good time to go back to court, because he could deny it, and the kids weren't impacted.

When he does something that is unacceptable, don't waste time speculating about his meds, or his therapist, or the PC, or anything else.  Focus on what he did, and on what the court could do to help, and file a motion right away, focusing on the new information - what he did.  You can also add other information that is relevant, like if you have reason to believe he is off his meds, or if you think he should be in therapy and he's not.  But focus mainly on the behavior you have observed, and what evidence you have, and on how the kids are impacted.  And ask the court for a remedy you think is best;  for example, it could be supervised visitation, or even suspend visitation for a period of time til he can prove he is able to control his behavior.

I think you are going around and around, focusing on issues which are important, like his meds and his therapists, but not directly your business.  You business is how he deals with you and how his behavior impacts the kids.  That should be what triggers filing a motion asking for the court's help.

[momtara]

momtara, I think you need to acknowledge that your exh's mental health (or lack of it!) is his own problem, and you have no control over it.

I highly recommend you think long and hard about this question:

Is your exH a danger to your kids. Especially think about specific concrete behavior that would make this seem true. Some things would be clearcut. Others might not. It might be a gut feeling of yours, which you should honor and believe, even if you cannot do a very good job of explaining exactly why.

All good thoughts from Kitty and Matt.  Thank you.

I have thought long and hard about the danger issue and I have no answer.  Professionals tell me he's probably not a danger, just likes to scare me to get my attention.  They say the only guide is past behavior.  He has gotten very angry and so far they are fine.  But the way he can turn cold and callous toward the kids, when triggered, makes me uneasy.  A court doesn't want to hear about my gut feeling ... . He has not been violent.  I worry that at some point he could decide he has nothing to live for anyway, and with his distorted thinking, who knows what could happen.  It doesn't seem like we're at this point, but it could happen.

I think one thing I have not mentioned yet, that I should, is that he was constantly talking about getting back together until recently.  I think he still wants that, just hasn't said it lately.  My T and others have just said to tell him it's an inappropriate topic right now, if he brings it up.  Many people here have exes who have moved on or wanted to move on.  He cannot take care of our young kids on his own so of course he wants to have his family back.  So that makes things tense and I always have to be aware of what I say to him.  That's part of my concern.  Any boundary-setting is real abandonment to him, like when he texts me something in order to start a convo, and I respond only via email.

While I can't force him to take medicine, I do think that it would be a very tough situation if he all of a sudden stopped seeing his doctors regularly.  He's been seeing them since the divorce and they know about his triggers.  He shouldn't be off his antidepressants and without regular talk therapy.  But I had a shot to compel monthly reports from doctors, etc., and I blew it (for now).

For now I am watching and documenting.  It is hard on a daily basis to figure out if I am overreacting, or downplaying.  

[Matt]

I'm sorry but I don't remember how old your kids are... .?

And do they have phones?

Mine were 8 and 10 when we separated, a week before Christmas.  I gave them both phones for Christmas - their first - the kind made for kids.  My thinking was, they could get hold of me any time, and the phones also had a GPS feature, so I could track where they were.  If my wife decided to take them out of town without telling me, they could call me, or I could see where they were.

[momtara]

They are both under 4, hence why I get so worried.

[Matt]

Yeah, that limits your options somewhat.

The one thing you have said that might be a case for withholding visitation, or making it supervised, is that he's off his meds.

Can you prove that?

[momtara]

I had my tape running when he told our 3 year old, "Better behave.  Daddy's not on any medication."

I'm not sure I want to play that card yet because I need to go whole-hog if I do it, and I jumped the gun last time in asking for an emergency order.  I backed down because he hadn't done anything truly wrong.  I might want to wait and see if he calms down or gets worse.  I do have that recording, but once I share that, he will be a lot more careful what he says in the future.  Someday he'll be back off supervised visits (perhaps sooner than I think) and if he is angry or hostile, he'll hold it in and then take it out on the kids maybe... .

I may be overthinking, which I've certainly been accused of.

[Matt]

So... .if he acts out in some way, and you have some documentation of that, and you also have evidence that he went off his meds - a choice he made - then together those might be pretty convincing.

In the meantime, what I meant by the phone example is that you need to look for ways to protect the kids without making any accusations you can't back up or going back to court prematurely.

Can you think of any other ways you could help the kids be safe?

Can they memorize your phone number and call you if they want to, for any reason?

Could you call your ex once a day, when the kids are with him, and ask to talk to them?

If you know where they will be, could you drop in on him, just to see how they are doing?

Or are there some other steps you could take, without interfering in his time with them, that would make them safer?

[momtara]

I do call them on the phone.  I don't think they'd be able to call me themselves.  ExH's parents are usually around when he has them, so that's helpful, but they don't talk to me about it.  They are intimidated by him too, and I think they'd protect him over them.

[Matt]

I do call them on the phone.  I don't think they'd be able to call me themselves.  ExH's parents are usually around when he has them, so that's helpful, but they don't talk to me about it.  They are intimidated by him too, and I think they'd protect him over them.

So you aren't able to talk to his parents and get their honest opinions and help... .?

But... .your ex has kind of indicated that he accepts the need to keep his parents involved.  Maybe you can reinforce that - let him know that you feel better about him having the kids when his parents are around?

If one adult has a bad day, and BPD or some other problem like that, he might make some bad decisions, but if there are two or three adults present, it seems less likely that they will all use bad judgment... .

[livednlearned]

Hi momtara,

When people give you good advice, you say thanks, it's good advice, and then you say, "but... ."

Maybe it would help to tell us what the good advice is that you're taking in. Can you put it in a list for us?

No one here knows your ex like you do. No one here, even if they did know him, could tell you whether he's going to be dangerous. No mental health professional or doctor or judge or lawyer is going to be able to answer this question. Even your ex doesn't know. There is no answer. It's a black box of mental illness. You want the board to predict whether your ex is dangerous enough, and tell you whether you should do more, and how to do it, how to control him, or make him do this or that. We can't. You can't. The court can't. His doctors can't.

The advice people are giving you is to stop trying to control him. Stop engaging with him. Like Grey Kitty said, "Stop trying to get him treated--your track record of actually helping him is bad, and won't get better."

What is really going on is about boundaries. It's about you. You were intimidated and let go of the one thing that really mattered to you -- having the PC monitor his meds and therapy. He is much, much better at controlling you.

Until you dig deep into this and figure it out -- not just "oh well, I guess I blew it" but really dig into it, you're going to be on this merry-go-round for a long time. I understand that your kids are young, and that certainly makes it difficult. My son is 13, though, and the fears and worry and anxieties don't go away. When my ex had his major psychotic episode and repeatedly told me I would ever see my son again, there wasn't a thing I could do. No police officer would guarantee that I could remove my child, and there was nothing S could have (or even would have) done. N/BPDx wanted to engage with me that night like no other night, and that's when I learned the hard way what it means to have a boundary and not engage.

Not having clear and strong boundaries is common problem here -- people sabotage themselves. You have to figure out why you do it. Otherwise you might end up back in court spending a lot of money trying to get something with teeth, only to end up buckling and giving in like you did with the PC. And you think it's a risk to go to court, which it could well be, but if you don't bring your titanium backbone to that effort, you will just end up helping your ex and his L get what they want.

You're doing well, you're making a lot of gains. Keep doing it. Do it even more, even when the stakes feel high. See what happens.

[Matt]

(Oh and by the way, what LnL just said to you, a bunch of people here said pretty much the same thing to me, when I came here.  Took me a while to hear it too... .)

[david]

Several things that have crossed my mind.

The courts will not fix your ex. They do not check to see if their ruling is being followed. Your ex does not have a parole officer watching him since he is not a felon. Expecting the courts to fix the situation is not gonna happen.

Setting boundaries may lead to an initial unconfortable situation. Sticking to the boundary, if it is well thought out and adhered to, will change things for the better. The only one that can figure out what boundaries are best is someone that is intimately involved with the situation. That is you.

Making mistakes should be expected. Learning from the mistakes and moving forward is what is important.

If you know what is important than stick with that plan and don't let the courts, your atty, or anyone else change that. I have found that when I stood my ground with my atty and told him that something was non negotiable I always have gotten what I asked for. I do believe what I have stood my ground on was reasonable and achievable.

Do I believe my ex needs serious help for her mental health issues. Absolutely. Is there anything I can reasonably expect the courts to do to help remedy that situation. No. Even if I could get the courts to order ex to get DBT treatment or some other form of treatment for BPD do I think ex would follow the order and get better. No. Unless she wants to get better nothing will change in her. Courts can't order someone to get better.                                                                       Realizing the reality of my situation helped me find ways around/through/over whatever obstacle ex put in front of me. I am not 100% successful but I have learned to increase the odds in the boys and I favor. My ex is still the same person with the same issues. That is the one constant I expect will continue. It is what it is.

[momtara]

Thanks, all.  I *am* taking advice from here.  I am setting boundaries, not engaging with him.  And documenting, watching, being ready. 

If I know or am pretty sure there is danger, I will withhold the kids.

When I say "But" it's because each situation is different and I want to add more info into the mix in case something occurs to someone that hasn't occurred to me.  It happens.

I have gotten some really good advice here and there aren't a lot of other people I can talk to about these issues.  My family leans on me about everything.  I'm supposed to be the one in charge, but I don't have anyone who really understands what's going on.

[momtara]

And Matt, that made me smile.  And gave me hope. 

[livednlearned]

When I say "But" it's because each situation is different and I want to add more info into the mix in case something occurs to someone that hasn't occurred to me.  It happens.

I understand, I really really really do. As much as someone can feel like a sister on the Internet without ever meeting, I feel that way about you. I want to see you master this mess and get through it intact, and I'm saying this because I recognize myself in you, just like Matt is saying, and david is saying, and everyone here who cares about you.

I, too, felt that my case was different because my son is extremely sensitive, he's OCD and ADHD and probably dyslexic, and my ex is bipolar, and he's a scary alcoholic, and he's an attorney, and so many things that make it different. But everything boils down to boundaries. It just does. That's why all of our stories are, in the end, the same. It's the nature of the disorder, and it's the nature of those of us who want(ed) so desperately to control it and manipulate our severely mentally ill ex partners to get them to just check into a treatment program and suck it up and get better dangit.

It is hard that your kids are so young, but the rest of it -- the mental illness, the piece of crap legal system, the lawyer expense, the mental health professionals -- it's all the same. Having young children increases your worry, but it doesn't make the rest of the circus any different.

I have gotten some really good advice here and there aren't a lot of other people I can talk to about these issues.  My family leans on me about everything.  I'm supposed to be the one in charge, but I don't have anyone who really understands what's going on.

You're going to continue getting really good advice because people here care about you a lot. There is probably no other group of people championing you like the people on this board are doing. You're one of us. We're your team. We get it. We walked in your shoes and thanks to other people here helping us right here, we punched through the wall and are on the other side. We're a big human chain lined up trying to help you across. This is what recovering codependent people do    We see that someone is in need (and asking... .) and we are here, even when some of us are supposed to at work or studying (points to self).

It's about specifics when it comes to thinking through strategies, like you say, but it's also about being really honest with you when we (I should speak for myself, so I) see you leaping over the boundary issue without factoring that into your strategy. You just can't with this disorder. It's the most important tool in your toolkit. You toss away boundaries -- for whatever reason -- and you're the one being controlled.



LnL

[david]

Boundaries made all the difference for my situation. It took me while to get that.

The first few times I had serious concerns about the "what ifs". The thing that kept me focused was our two boys. I decided I was going to do what I thought was the best for our boys.

In the beginning I got serious backlash from ex. She didn't like that I was standing up to her. I had three protection orders filed against during that time. I stayed focused on what I thought best and continued doing that. I did change things sometimes if I thought I needed to.

We finshed a custody eval several months ago. I focused on our boys. Ex ranted about the things (boundaries) I was doing: I refused to talk to her directly and only through email. I explained to the evaluator that was the only way I found that worked. I have a video and an audio recorder with me whenever I am near her (picking the boys up at her place). I explained that since I have been doing that I haven't been accused of any wrongdoing. It's been four years now and I would continue to do so. My state actually does not allow recording. I was in court years ago and ex brought it up. I explained why and asked the court for suggestions. The court moved on and said nothing. These are particular examples that worked in my situation. All our situations are different but they all come back to boundaries.

I also view boundaries this way. If my ex ever got the help she needed and got better she would realize that what I did was the right thing for our boys. Doing what is best for our boys is my bottom line.

[david]

From my examples you can see that ex doesn't like my boundaries. She has tried many times to get around them. I believe they are the best things for our boys and continue to use them. She tests them still but does abide by them since I give her no leeway.                                            I do not answer my phone if I do not recognize the number. When she comes out of her residence when I am picking up the boys she clearly sees that I have a video camera in my hands. She then goes back into her residence. Sometimes she just stands out front and acts as if I am not there. As long as she doesn't approach me I am okay with it. It's like dealing with a two year old.                                                                                                                             Her behavior also tells me she hasn't changed. Her focus is on "getting me". It's been seven years now and I see the same behaviors recycled over and over. I do not anticipate any changes.

Your subject is "How do I get out of this?" I think I will get out of this when our youngest is 18. At that time things will get better because ex and I no longer have to legally communicate anymore.                                                                                                                                I have SS's and I have a great relationship with two of them. One is NC and one is very limited LC with their mom. They are both in their 30's. My behaviors when we were all together guided them in ways I never realized then. They have had conversations with me about those times and they are thankful I stood up for them. What is funny is I never saw ex in the light I see her now and (the simplest way to describe it was I was in fog) my ss's just thought she was difficult.

When my ex first ran away she emptied our house and trashed it. I moved back to my parents house until I could fix the house up. Ex actually went to their school and told them, I had primary custody in the very beginning, that I was not living in the school district so our boys could not go to that school. The principal called me and questioned me. I explained the situation and told her I needed at least two weeks to make the house livable. She was fine with that and just wanted me to call her when we moved back in. I got the first floor fixed in about ten days. I put our beds in the living room since the upstairs was still a mess. Our boys were 4.5 and 8.5 at the time. They still remember the fun times we had camping in our house. They know what happened and who did what back then.

[momtara]

LandL, thank you so much.  There are so few people who understand.  You really do give me such valuable insight.  I hope to get through this mess intact too.  I don't want to be worried every time my ex takes the kids until they are 18.  Your experiences seem similar to mine and that's helpful.  You said somethinhg about how your anxiety made it hard to focus on your son, and I am trying not to let that happen to my kids.  I just wish  i could be even happier now instead of still mired in my exh's fog.

David and Matt, thanks too.  Sometimes I just need to be reminded of the big picture and not get so intimidated by my ex.  This board is good about bringing me back to reality.

[momtara]

All of that said, the question remains... .

How do I get out of this?    Or more specifically, the parenting coordinating thing that limits her powers so much.  We are supposed to start with a new pc in six weeks.  Haven't talked to her yet.  I realize I can't control his medication or therapy.  But one of the things I had told our last PC is that when my ex's relatives finally move away (and it will happen someday) he may have a big episode if he doesn't go with them.  He is living with them right now.  His big episode before I got a restraining order was because they had gone on vacation far away and I think he felt abandoned, so he took it out on me and the kids, raging until 5 in the mornig.  He was afraid of us leaving so he did somethinng that pushed me away (ironically but typical).  I think a PC who talks to his doctors on occasion would be helpful because she could see how his therapy is going and if any issues are coming up such as his family moving.  It's not entirely to control him.  She could also let them know if she sees problems.

Since I did sign this compromise saying our next PC can't contact his doctors, and it lasts 12 months, it seems my best way out of it was to tell everything to her during our first private session and see if I can get her to recommend that she see us but that we allow her to talk to both of our professionals.  Maybe she can convince ex that she needs to be able to contact them.  My ex may not go for it, but maybe she can convince him.  If she can't, it's possible we may not be able to get a pc who works under those conditions.  I think exH would just say, too bad. Then maybe I'd have to go to a judge to pick a new one, but going to court to undo an agreement we signed might trigger him.

If he does anything really bad in the near future, I can do something via the courts anyway, but we just signed this consent agreement so I need a real reason to back out if the provision that our next PC not be allowed to talk to his doctors.

(Part of the reason I gave into all this, by the way, is that I thought once we dropped the court stuff and it wasn't triggering him, things would improve and we wouldn't actually need a PC.)

[RR4U]

Has he ever done anything to the kids in the past?

[livednlearned]

(Part of the reason I gave into all this, by the way, is that I thought once we dropped the court stuff and it wasn't triggering him, things would improve and we wouldn't actually need a PC.)

Meaning, this didn't work?

How do I get out of this?    Or more specifically, the parenting coordinating thing that limits her powers so much.  We are supposed to start with a new pc in six weeks.  Haven't talked to her yet.

By getting out of this, it sounds like you mean getting around it? Below, your strategy sounds more like you want to do an end run around the order as it is written. As opposed to trying to go back and re-do the order.

Since I did sign this compromise saying our next PC can't contact his doctors, and it lasts 12 months, it seems my best way out of it was to tell everything to her during our first private session and see if I can get her to recommend that she see us but that we allow her to talk to both of our professionals.  Maybe she can convince ex that she needs to be able to contact them. My ex may not go for it, but maybe she can convince him.  If she can't, it's possible we may not be able to get a pc who works under those conditions.

Did your last PC learn that your ex had issues from observing and interacting with him? Or from the intake form? Or from what you said about him? Or from the doctors directly... .?

maybe I'd have to go to a judge to pick a new one, but going to court to undo an agreement we signed might trigger him.

But above, you say that backing down was supposed to calm him down so you wouldn't even need a PC. You anticipated that you knew what would trigger him, or untrigger him, and it sounds like your hypothesis was incorrect. How would this one be different?

Setting aside the triggering logic, going to court to "undo an agreement" isn't likely to work out for you. Nothing has changed since you signed it. Court is going to shrug its shoulders and say, "You signed this. What has changed?" If you say you changed your mind, that there haven't been any substantial changes in circumstances, but you're just mad at yourself for backing down, you're going to get a hand slap and a big fat lawyer bill for nothing, is my guess. At least, that's how it would work where I am, but it could be different for you -- my PC order was sworn in by a judge. If it didn't work that way in your case, but your lawyers entered the order into an official court document, you still end up with the same problem: an official court document that you .consented to, that you helped draft, that you signed.

If he does anything really bad in the near future, I can do something via the courts anyway, but we just signed this consent agreement so I need a real reason to back out if the provision that our next PC not be allowed to talk to his doctors.

The next time you get a new PC, you just insist on the terms you think are important. "When my ex doesn't get therapy and take medications, he is unstable and that isn't in the best interests of the kids. I need someone who can talk to his doctors." If the opposing party won't agree, you to go court. Play your recording. Bring your documentation.

As for talking to your PC and telling her your concerns, be careful. I let the documentation speak for itself with mine, and since enforcing boundaries tends to escalate the BPD behaviors, I didn't have to say too much about N/BPDx. He did it all on his own. My PC came to her own conclusions and then she expressed her concerns to me. That's when I felt I could speak freely. I don't trust anyone in the legal system and I wouldn't assume that telling someone how bad my ex was would create an ally. It could backfire.

[momtara]

(Part of the reason I gave into all this, by the way, is that I thought once we dropped the court stuff and it wasn't triggering him, things would improve and we wouldn't actually need a PC.)

Meaning, this didn't work?

How do I get out of this?    Or more specifically, the parenting coordinating thing that limits her powers so much.  We are supposed to start with a new pc in six weeks.  Haven't talked to her yet.

By getting out of this, it sounds like you mean getting around it? Below, your strategy sounds more like you want to do an end run around the order as it is written. As opposed to trying to go back and re-do the order.

Since I did sign this compromise saying our next PC can't contact his doctors, and it lasts 12 months, it seems my best way out of it was to tell everything to her during our first private session and see if I can get her to recommend that she see us but that we allow her to talk to both of our professionals.  Maybe she can convince ex that she needs to be able to contact them. My ex may not go for it, but maybe she can convince him.  If she can't, it's possible we may not be able to get a pc who works under those conditions.

Did your last PC learn that your ex had issues from observing and interacting with him? Or from the intake form? Or from what you said about him? Or from the doctors directly... .?

maybe I'd have to go to a judge to pick a new one, but going to court to undo an agreement we signed might trigger him.

But above, you say that backing down was supposed to calm him down so you wouldn't even need a PC. You anticipated that you knew what would trigger him, or untrigger him, and it sounds like your hypothesis was incorrect. How would this one be different?

Setting aside the triggering logic, going to court to "undo an agreement" isn't likely to work out for you. Nothing has changed since you signed it. Court is going to shrug its shoulders and say, "You signed this. What has changed?" If you say you changed your mind, that there haven't been any substantial changes in circumstances, but you're just mad at yourself for backing down, you're going to get a hand slap and a big fat lawyer bill for nothing, is my guess. At least, that's how it would work where I am, but it could be different for you -- my PC order was sworn in by a judge. If it didn't work that way in your case, but your lawyers entered the order into an official court document, you still end up with the same problem: an official court document that you .consented to, that you helped draft, that you signed.

If he does anything really bad in the near future, I can do something via the courts anyway, but we just signed this consent agreement so I need a real reason to back out if the provision that our next PC not be allowed to talk to his doctors.

The next time you get a new PC, you just insist on the terms you think are important. "When my ex doesn't get therapy and take medications, he is unstable and that isn't in the best interests of the kids. I need someone who can talk to his doctors." If the opposing party won't agree, you to go court. Play your recording. Bring your documentation.

As for talking to your PC and telling her your concerns, be careful. I let the documentation speak for itself with mine, and since enforcing boundaries tends to escalate the BPD behaviors, I didn't have to say too much about N/BPDx. He did it all on his own. My PC came to her own conclusions and then she expressed her concerns to me. That's when I felt I could speak freely. I don't trust anyone in the legal system and I wouldn't assume that telling someone how bad my ex was would create an ally. It could backfire.

Thanks, LandL.

That's good advice - I am so angry that I could go in to a PC right now and just beg her to deal with him - but she doesn't know the situation, and you're right, it may just make me look like the bad one.  And it takes a long time for someone to learn about what's really going on with us.  It's just  frustrating to me, because when we see the PC, he will bring up the same exact issues and we will probably just repeat everything we did with the last PC! 

And yes, you're correct, I thought by backing down on the court stuff, my ex would calm down.  But apparently he's just not taking his medicine and is going to be on edge and that's going to continue.  I gave it a shot.  I am still kicking myself for not asking for everything (psych eval etc.) when I had the chance.  I was worried that it would cost ex or me too much money and down the road make him even angrier and more desperate.  It's possible, but I know I keep overthinking this stuff. 

And our last PC saw his issues right away, without me saying anything.  I was being very cautious.  However, she described herself as very aggressive and she worked very fast.  Some of them just focus on individual issues that come up (like parenting time disputes) and may not be as swift as the last one.

That said... .

I really hoped there was some clever strategy around the restraints we're putting on our new pc.  Like telling ex, things are hard for us, maybe I need to go to court and ask for a counselor for both of us - and then he might say, well, let's avoid court, we'll just ask our PC to fill that role and she can talk to our therapists.

Seems to me I have two options:  1)  See if he confesses again to being off his meds, and put him back under supervised or   2)  Just hire this new pc, but explain the terms to her and see if she can work under them and if she can convince my ex to loosen them and sign a retainer loosening them.  If he is in a good mood that day, he may trust her.

If someone else has a clever strategy, do let me know!

[momtara]

RR4U, here's the history of what my exH has done:

During our 7-yr marriage he periodically went into three-day angry periods in which everything I said was wrong and got criticized.  I'd go into a different room and he'd follow me in there criticizing harshly.  Also would be controlling and say I shouldn't take the kids to the park etc. 

Finally there was a weekend when he was in a rage and I wasn't sure why.  His mom was away on vacation and I think that's what triggered it.  He must have felt abandoned, then, in his twisted BPD mind, figured the kids (babies) and I might abandon him too.  So he went on a tear, criticizing, controlling, etc.  I decided to stand up to him to see what happened.  I told him to stop criticizing.  I showed where his logic was wrong.  I tried to feed our son and he kept saying the food fell on the floor and to get new food.  I threw out two whole meals and had to re-feed him.  he kept taking our son out of his high chair when I tried to feed him.

I called my dad to come.  I thought ex would calm down with another person around.  Ex promptly called his family and claimed I was beating our son.

Things went downhill.  My dad came, ex called police.  Ex took a walk, came back, said he wanted to take our son to the hospital because I abused him.  Hospital found nothing wrong.  Ex and I came home, and that's where it got worse... .

Ex stayed up from 11 pm to 5 a.m. yelling at me, moving our babies to different beds, not letting me put them to sleep.  He put our youngest, a few months old, on the edge of a high bed, something I was always scared of (them falling off that bed).  Then he claimed he dropped her.  I went into the room and she was lying on the floor.  She was fine and asleep.  He hadn't dropped her, but the fact that he'd scare me like that bothers me.

Up until then I had assumed his threats were angry words.  I had never seen him do anything directly to hurt me or the kids, until then.

I got a temp restraining order, he was out of the house, eventually I filed for divorce.  But he started getting counseling and acknowledged literally everything he had done wrong.  He wanted to get back together.  I hemmed and hawed.  I wanted it to work out but I saw evidence of serious mental illness too, so I kept up with the divorce, figuring if I let him back into my life, it would be much harder to get divorced later. 

That scary night was two years ago.  Since then, he has been in counseling and I have kept an eye on his moods.  Nothing as terrible has happened since then, but then again, I'm not living with him.  Divorce is obviously a big trigger and until recently the worst that has happened (as far as I know) is that he has sent me angry texts and been hostile.  He hasn't physically abused us or threatened us, but I always feel his anger and his edge and worry he could snap.  He seems to be a real Jeckyl and Hyde.

Since he's been off his medicine as of a few months ago, he's been angrier and more on edge.   The worst thing to happen was a few weeks ago when he was being abusive and angry at pickup time for the kids, and both kids started crying.  It broke my heart.  I will put a stop to it if it happens again.    I think our court case (now over) triggered him that time, but who knows what else could happen.

He only takes them every other weekend and goes to see relatives with them.  But I still am nervous - mostly during pickups and drop-offs.  So in short, I am parenting with someone with real anger issues, who has our young kids.  He is in therapy but they don't understand the extent of it.  He comes across as a nice, sweet guy in there.

Court doesn't really care if I think he MIGHT do something or if he ALMOST does things.  I do have a pattern of mental illness and imagining things I can point to.  But I wouldn't want to ask for a psych eval unless he was under supervised visitation at the time, as it might make him worse around the kids.  Plus, he has doctors, they just don't know the full story.

What happened this summer was that our parent coordinator encouraged me to file for supervised visitation because his docs told her he was off his medicine.  I filed, but then his docs wrote letters saying he could see the kids unsupervised, undermining some of the argument.  I got nervous that the whole thing might be dropped, so I settled for a few things, like seeing a PC in the future who can't talk to his docs.  I was probably in a stronger position than I realized and should not have backed down.  Hindsight is 20/20.

So now I am coparenting with someone with mental health issues and he seems to be worse than before - just angrier at times, imagining that things are in our parenting agreement that are not.  I am setting boundaries, finally, and sticking only to email with him, and that triggers him too.  Things may get better.  They may get worse.  I am just nervous when I send my tiny tots with him.

[RR4U]

Do the kids seem scared when hes around them? I dont know where you live. But maybe you can put an anonymous call or use a fake name into child protective services saying that you have witness the children crying when he picks them up and they seem fearful. I know where I live they need to look into any call.  Its definitely a hard situation.  Im so sorry you have to go through this.

Would he ever agree to change the PC?

[RR4U]

Its kinda drastic but if your scared for your children. Its an option. BpD are so good at manipulation. ...

[momtara]

Yeah, there are a few things like that (that's a good one) that I can do if desperate.  I just think I'd use my real name if I had a concern with him.  

He came today to pick them up and seemed perfectly fine.  But this morning I told our 2 year old that he was coming and she started crying and said she wanted to stay home, and "dadd y's too loud."  She is the sweetest thing and usually doesn't complain.  I told her that if he was too loud again, she could stay home.  It's amazing that one epsiode of anger a month ago affected her like that.  I guess everyone here is right, I have to be strong in front of our kids - i can't let them see that this kind of behavior is ok.  It was only that one time that he was so awful in front of them at pickup.  I decided that if it happens again, I will take action somehow.

Anyway, he showed up just now and seemed jovial and just took them for the weekend.  They always ask me to come with them (they are young and don't understand).  He takes them to his parents' house.  I have my fears:  He could think nothing is worth living for and hurt himself, hurt them, whatever.  But they always come home happy.  They are also really too young to tell me if anything is wrong.

I am watching to see if he's getting worse or better, but by setting boundaries on communication, I also don't have as much of a yardstick to determine how he's doing.  That's the double edged sword.  

I worry so much between visits.  I am happy after they come home, then when it gets close to his visitation, I get upset again.

Maybe when we start with a new parent coordinator I will start to feel better.  I was hoping to not need one, but clearly we do.  I wonder what else people do when they are parenting with someone with a mental illness, how they cope?  Parent coordinating is pretty expensive.  Actually, my T said that he sees couples and gives reports to the judge, and it only costs the amount of a regular visit (covered by insurance).  The thing I like about a PC is that they can testify as experts.  It's just going to take this one a while to see what's going on.  And she may not even want to take us on (although her background is partly in high conflict couples which I like).